Not By Works

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Mar 14, 2011
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I don't pigeon-hole grace, I establish it. Jesus came first to forgive our sins and judge sin, when He returns He will judge between the righteous and the wicked. He was abundantly clear that there are wheat and tares, righteous and wicked, and that they will grow up together until the very end when the tares will be burnt. This is not a "shape up or ship out" this is a "repent and believe the gospel." Which is not that all will be accepted, but that justice will be received. We will be judged on our works, good or bad.
the wheat God picks up and places in the barn

The chaff he pulls out and burns with a fire that shall never be quenched

The what was saved the moment they were baptized by God into Christ, His death and his body.

The chaff will be burned on judgment day, when they are pronounced dead because of their rejection of Christ.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Scripture is quite clear time and again that we are saved by grace through faith. Now I understand our differences; you are a works salvationist; I proclaim the fullness of Jesus’ works, and our salvation is made complete by Him, and Him alone.
I'm not a works salvationist. The works are not what saves, as in my earlier example of the Passover. The Israelites were given specific instructions and though those instructions were not efficacious for salvation they were required. It was God who delivered them, but it was not apart from their works. You pit James against Paul and deny that faith is perfected in works. Are you afraid of God's judgment of your works?
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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No

How can sin lead unto to death be hell or damnation for the believer when all sin was paid for at the cross?
Oh, you mean "sins that are past"? Agreed. But does an eleventh hour pardon grant us the right to walk out of death row, buy a bazooka, and go on a murder rampage?

The reason OSAS is so popular is that it allows us to keep doing capital crime without fear of capital punishment.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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the wheat God picks up and places in the barn

The chaff he pulls out and burns with a fire that shall never be quenched

The what was saved the moment they were baptized by God into Christ, His death and his body.

The chaff will be burned on judgment day, when they are pronounced dead because of their rejection of Christ.
Absolutely, but if one believes their faith is perfected. They will have works, though those works are not what is saving them.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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What I see is in here are OSAS folks who either ignore or totally distort that which flatly proves them wrong.
What we see is you, who does the very thing you claim they are doing.

it appears you are angry at calvin, and not true grace believers, you should look closely at who you are angry at and try for once to start listening to people who are trying to enlighten you to what they truly believe

Like how Jesus says "and because iniquity shall abound, the love ("agape" of the saints) of many shall wax cold (spiritual death of those saints), but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."

What a monument to error it is to totally distort this verse to make "the same shall be saved" mean "not assume room temperature". It's talking about spiritual salvation, of which those saints who fail to endure to the end will have no part.
oh boy

endure to the end, spoken of tribulation saints, and the type of salvation Jesus spoke of us having their physical lives saved out of tribulation.

What is dangerous is you and your belief in really nothign different than the pharisees, who crucified christ for trying to show them the truth of grace also.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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It's seems a strange to me that the word "Perfectionist" is used in a negative way by some; especially in light of these scriptures:

Matthew 5:
[48] Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Psalm 37:
[37] Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

And the reason we have pastors and teachers today is "For the perfecting of the saints" (Ephesians 4:12).

And Paul himself told the Corinthians "Be perfect" (2 Corinthians 13:11).

Also all scripture is given to man so that he might be "perfect" (2 Timothy 3:17).
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Absolutely, but if one believes their faith is perfected. They will have works, though those works are not what is saving them.
agree I think, If someone has TRUE LIVING saving faith, they will have works

If they do not. The most you can expect out of them is some religion. Like going to church and other stuff. But no real fruit of the spirit. or works.

scripture says, He who began a work WILL COMPLETE IT. do you agree?
Scripture also says he has PERFECTED FOREVER, those he is in the process of sanctifying, again, do you agree?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Oh, you mean "sins that are past"? Agreed. But does an eleventh hour pardon grant us the right to walk out of death row, buy a bazooka, and go on a murder rampage?

The reason OSAS is so popular is that it allows us to keep doing capital crime without fear of capital punishment.
I did not know that the SDA also believe that only past sins are atoned for by the cross and after conversion all sins must continually be repented of to secure salvation?

Is that what you believe?

Really go back to the Baptist Church ... seriously that is as false a doctrine as there can be.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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actually, If someone has TRUE LIVING saving faith, they will have works

If they do not. The most you can expect out of them is some religion. Like going to church and other stuff. But no real fruit of the spirit. or works.

scripture says, He who began a work WILL COMPLETE IT. Why do you not agree with scripture

Scripture also says he has PERFECTED FOREVER, those he is in the process of sanctifying, again, why do you not agree?
I do believe, I also recognize that many who think themselves saved do not truly know the Lord. This happens in both camps. My issue with OSAS isn't theological it's practical. We aren't given a sign when we are sealed and saved during this lifetime so unless we are aware that sin could lead us astray we must be careful to walk after the faith. If the work is truly His we will be saved, but eternal security must be counter balanced with calls for righteous living and the truth that works are required of us.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I do believe, I also recognize that many who think themselves saved do not truly know the Lord. This happens in both camps. My issue with OSAS isn't theological it's practical. We aren't given a sign when we are sealed and saved during this lifetime so unless we are aware that sin could lead us astray we must be careful to walk after the faith. If the work is truly His we will be saved, but eternal security must be counter balanced with calls for righteous living and the truth that works are required of us.
This is a works gospel whether you want to admit to it or not.

We are either saved by grace through faith alone eternally apart from any and all works or we are not.

Cannot have it both ways

NOSAS always tries to straddle two lanes.. but in the end it is obvious.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Oh, you mean "sins that are past"? Agreed. But does an eleventh hour pardon grant us the right to walk out of death row, buy a bazooka, and go on a murder rampage?

The reason OSAS is so popular is that it allows us to keep doing capital crime without fear of capital punishment.
I think Luke 12 explains what will happen to that servant
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I do believe, I also recognize that many who think themselves saved do not truly know the Lord. This happens in both camps. My issue with OSAS isn't theological it's practical. We aren't given a sign when we are sealed and saved during this lifetime so unless we are aware that sin could lead us astray we must be careful to walk after the faith. If the work is truly His we will be saved, but eternal security must be counter balanced with calls for righteous living and the truth that works are required of us.
How can you read John 3, John 4, John 6 Eph 1 and 2, ! john and other passage and not believe in eternal security

That just makes no sense to me.

Lets call it eternal security, I hate the OSAS phrase, because I am afraid people hear it and automatically think Calvinism. so maybe it is better if we use a different term.

I believe in eternal security, I believe John told us we can KNOW we have eternal life, and by the knowledge have the power to keep on believing.

and it is those who do not have security in Christ that are in danger
 
Apr 3, 2019
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I did not know that the SDA also believe that only past sins are atoned for by the cross and after conversion all sins must continually be repented of to secure salvation?

Is that what you believe?

Really go back to the Baptist Church ... seriously that is as false a doctrine as there can be.
The SDA have some really weird ideas all from EG White such as the "The investigative judgment" - this is a bizarre concoction of tripe:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.

Source of confusion

Folks that believe this kind of malarkey will fall for anything. But then they are the source of the great disappointment when JC failed to return in 1844.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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I'm not a works salvationist. The works are not what saves, as in my earlier example of the Passover. The Israelites were given specific instructions and though those instructions were not efficacious for salvation they were required. It was God who delivered them, but it was not apart from their works. You pit James against Paul and deny that faith is perfected in works. Are you afraid of God's judgment of your works?
I don’t pit anyone against anyone. I simply embrace the fullness of Jesus’ words in that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

As far as your question, it’s a double-barreled, nonsensical question. It’s like asking someone their thoughts as to why 2+2=3. The question in and of itself is categorically incorrect.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Oh, you mean "sins that are past"? Agreed. But does an eleventh hour pardon grant us the right to walk out of death row, buy a bazooka, and go on a murder rampage?

The reason OSAS is so popular is that it allows us to keep doing capital crime without fear of capital punishment.
james sad if we keep the whole law yet fail in just one point, we are guilty of the whole law

What is the penalty for not fulfilling the law?

Moses and paul tells us the curse is death,

What is dangerous is NOSAS people who continually rants at even the thouoght that a born again child of God would even have the hint f a notion to go around and commit murder and other sins, Which at the same time excusing their own sins. Which according to the law. Makes them just as guilty as the murderer.

so can you do us a favor. Stop judging us for things we would never even think of doing in the first place (not to mention, IT we did, God would chasten us, Who can withstand the chastening of God. can you? I know I could not)

and start looking at your own sin, and judging yourself. as guilty as charged.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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This is a works gospel whether you want to admit to it or not.

We are either saved by grace through faith alone eternally apart from any and all works or we are not.

Cannot have it both ways

NOSAS always tries to straddle two lanes.. but in the end it is obvious.
Is our faith not perfected in works? Is our faith not made complete by what we do? How can we say we have faith if we have no works?
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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Oh, you mean "sins that are past"? Agreed. But does an eleventh hour pardon grant us the right to walk out of death row, buy a bazooka, and go on a murder rampage?

The reason OSAS is so popular is that it allows us to keep doing capital crime without fear of capital punishment.
Are you trying to earn God’s grace?
 
Nov 16, 2019
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scripture says, He who began a work WILL COMPLETE IT. ...
Scripture also says he has PERFECTED FOREVER, those he is in the process of sanctifying, again...
Which is why we should keep believing and not turn away from such a great High Priest and ministry.

"14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14

We remain in the perfecting, completing power of Christ's ministry by holding firmly to our faith in it.