Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

EleventhHour

Guest
EH,
you might want to learn how to 'back-off' and discern where others need to learn -
and not be so judgmental but realize that we all are on His different highways presented
before us according to His calling for us and us alone -
we must learn to accept and discern the level of just where our 'brothers and sisters' are,
in their particular space of there journey...
we simply have to learn how to understand and discern where THEY ARE -
that's why Paul said, 'I have become all things to all men'...
in other words;
Paul could RELATE ON ANY LEVEL, from 'hillbilly to PHD -
and always in a manner of Godly Love...

In context Paul was speaking about the Jews and the Gentiles.... and reaching the unsaved, not brothers and sisters in Christ.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
37,838
14,783
113
Well, maybe not exactly .... yet he seemed to deny the new nature as gnostic and always promoted a losable salvation.
Ah, yes, now that you mention it, I recall that HeRose was very knowledgeable on Gnosticism :) If I remember correctly, what some objected to in his stance was that we had to obey certain things, not so much from a strict legalistic viewpoint per se, but perhaps enough to indicate that if one did certain things or failed to do certain others, perhaps they were not saved at all, but even you hold to that stance in some respects. I don't recall exactly... I do know I admired/respected his handling of topics and how he spoke to people. He may have been one of the ones who really got into it with Bruce, who is now gone, Bruce of the banned topic hyper grace. Oh, so many people come and go. Some join and never post beyond their intro.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,362
113
Incredible! Seven thousand four hundred and seventeen pages over three years!

And all generated because the OP features one verse taken wholly out of context and copied from Bible Hub's five different versions of Titus 3:5.
The implication in the OP was defeated in verse 1.While the OP disobeys the command there in verse 2 as well. "to malign no one and to be peaceable and gentle, showing full consideration to everyone." Took awhile but you can read this entire thread in four weeks if you take your time. :D
Maybe that's why verse one isn't posted? Because the constant argument that works mean zero to Salvation, is a falshood? Three years later and likely making Web history as the longest if not one of the longest single discussions on a forum? How gullible are we to keep paying this closed subject attention? ;) Seriously.

Titus 3
Berean Study Bible Par ▾
Heirs of Grace

1Remind the believers to submit to rulers and authorities, to be obedient and ready for every good work, 2to malign no one, and to be peaceable and gentle, showing full consideration to everyone.
3For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures—living in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birtha and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life. 8This saying is trustworthy. And I want you to emphasize these things, so that those who have believed God will take care to devote themselves to good deeds. These things are excellent and profitable for the people.


Avoid Divisions
(Romans 16:17–20)
9But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the law, because these things are pointless and worthless.
10Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition, 11knowing that such a man is corrupt and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Final Remarks and Greetings
12As soon as I send Artemas or Tychicus to you, make every effort to come to me at Nicopolis, because I have decided to winter there. 13Do your best to equip Zenas the lawyer and Apollos, so that they will have everything they need. 14And our people must also learn to devote themselves to good works in order to meet the pressing needs of others, so that they will not be unfruitful.
15All who are with me send you greetings.
Greet those who love us in the faith.
Grace be with all of you.b



Footnotes:

5 a Or of regeneration
15 b BYZ and TR include Amen.
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
We are saved by grace through faith. I guess one important step is to see scripturally how is faith defined? What are the examples? Is faith, that includes works, the same as work righteousness.
Often a verse not held in context to the entire book, chapter, and bible can seemingly say something.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
We are saved by grace through faith. I guess one important step is to see scripturally how is faith defined? What are the examples? Is faith, that includes works, the same as work righteousness.
Often a verse not held in context to the entire book, chapter, and bible can seemingly say something.
If works are a part of faith, how many works shall we include, can you find that held in context of the book, chapter and bible?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,236
4,183
113
Incredible! Seven thousand four hundred and seventeen pages over three years!

And all generated because the OP features one verse taken wholly out of context and copied from Bible Hub's five different versions of Titus 3:5.
The implication in the OP was defeated in verse 1.While the OP disobeys the command there in verse 2 as well. "to malign no one and to be peaceable and gentle, showing full consideration to everyone." Took awhile but you can read this entire thread in four weeks if you take your time. :D
Maybe that's why verse one isn't posted? Because the constant argument that works mean zero to Salvation, is a falshood? Three years later and likely making Web history as the longest if not one of the longest single discussions on a forum? How gullible are we to keep paying this closed subject attention? ;) Seriously.

Titus 3
Berean Study Bible Par ▾
Heirs of Grace

1Remind the believers to submit to rulers and authorities, to be obedient and ready for every good work, 2to malign no one, and to be peaceable and gentle, showing full consideration to everyone.
3For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures—living in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birtha and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life. 8This saying is trustworthy. And I want you to emphasize these things, so that those who have believed God will take care to devote themselves to good deeds. These things are excellent and profitable for the people.


Avoid Divisions
(Romans 16:17–20)
9But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the law, because these things are pointless and worthless.
10Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition, 11knowing that such a man is corrupt and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Final Remarks and Greetings
12As soon as I send Artemas or Tychicus to you, make every effort to come to me at Nicopolis, because I have decided to winter there. 13Do your best to equip Zenas the lawyer and Apollos, so that they will have everything they need. 14And our people must also learn to devote themselves to good works in order to meet the pressing needs of others, so that they will not be unfruitful.
15All who are with me send you greetings.
Greet those who love us in the faith.
Grace be with all of you.b



Footnotes:

5 a Or of regeneration
15 b BYZ and TR include Amen.


Obedience has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR SALVATION, as it is PART OF YOUR AGAPE LOVE that HE POURED INTO YOUR HEART, ROM 5:5.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
I don’t think they break it down like that do they? How much belief do you need until it’s enough belief? Any BCV for that?
One act of belief in the person of Christ Jesus and His finished work on our behalf.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.....One physical birth, One spiritual birth.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,369
113
We are saved by grace through faith. I guess one important step is to see scripturally how is faith defined? What are the examples? Is faith, that includes works, the same as work righteousness.
Often a verse not held in context to the entire book, chapter, and bible can seemingly say something.
Any and all works, deeds etc. that are righteous are the direct result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ......

Saved for not Saved by!

Faith alone saves a man eternally!
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
One act of belief in the person of Christ Jesus and His finished work on our behalf.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.....One physical birth, One spiritual birth.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

James 2:19
New American Standard Bible


19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.


Matthew 7:21-23
New American Standard Bible



21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Those in the second set of verses not only believed in Jesus but they performed miracles in his name and were condemned.

This is why systemic theology is required. At first glance the verses seem to contradict one another. But in reality they don’t, they simply shed more light. So it seems, belief alone is not enough.
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
One act of belief in the person of Christ Jesus and His finished work on our behalf.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.....One physical birth, One spiritual birth.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Also consider this.

In acts 2 when the Jews at Pentecost heard peters sermon and believed it they asked what shall we do? Peter told them what to do in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and forgiveness of sins. The Jews heard and were convicted, meaning they believed. Yet more was demanded.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
They had works but not faith in the Lord, they had faith in themselves.

......
The line from James needs to be understood in context but once again James is not teaching a works salvation but a salvation that is evidenced by its works.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Also consider this.

In acts 2 when the Jews at Pentecost heard peters sermon and believed it they asked what shall we do? Peter told them what to do in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and forgiveness of sins. The Jews heard and were convicted, meaning they believed. Yet more was demanded.
I see no place where works was added?
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
They had works but not faith in the Lord, they had faith in themselves.

......
The line from James needs to be understood in context but once again James is not teaching a works salvation but a salvation that is evidenced by its works.
No they believed in Christ.
so workless faith, even if you believe, is meaningless then.... so we agree... lol
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
I see no place where works was added?
Peter preached the gospel to them. Many of the Jews believed the gospel and was cut to the heart. Yet they were not saved. They asked what shall we do after hearing and believing in Jesus. Peter said repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and for the remission of sins. In greek the word for there is Eis and it means to obtain.

Peter did not say, “ do nothing you’re already saved because you believe”

Scripture teaches truth faith is belief and works. Not just one. Just because you believe in Jesus does not mean that work makes your worthy. It’s submitting to Christ and his teachings that gets your name placed in the book of life so that you’re saved by grace and mercy.
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
Any and all works, deeds etc. that are righteous are the direct result of the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ......

Saved for not Saved by!

Faith alone saves a man eternally!
Faith is different from belief. Faith is belief and works. Believing the truth but not living it won’t save you any more than rejecting the truth but living righteously.

You can believe the Bible, snd believe in the story, and yet still stand before Christ and he say go away I never knew you evil doers.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,362
113
What are "good works"? What deems them "good"? Can I get a explanation?
We know that we do not do good deeds in order to be saved. That isn't the issue in the least. And it is a fallacy.

What is being promoted by some is that good deeds, works, mean nothing in our faith.

I pray no one here is led to accept that teaching. Because it is entirely contrary to what God tells us.
If we do accept that our good deeds, deeds, works themselves, have nothing to do with our faith, (if that were true God wouldn't judge us according to our good deeds when we're before the white throne of his judgment), then we are abandoning God's word and following that which is averse. That too sisters and brothers shall be judged. And more so those who taught that shall face a harsher judgement. Matthew 25:14-46

Another way to look at the reference to works is to understand works refers to good deeds. If good deeds were not related to our faith, and how odd would that be, how is it that at the judgment when the Book of Life is opened where our personal history here on earth as a Christian is contained God judges us by our good deeds. For as we did here on earth we shall therein be rewarded in Heaven.

Immaturity and self deception
The NET is the newest complete translation of the original biblical languages into English

NET version 1 Corinthians 3:5
What is Apollos, really? Or what is Paul? Servants through whom you came to believe, and each of us in the ministry the Lord gave us.[g] 6 I planted,[h] Apollos watered, but God caused it to grow. 7 So neither the one who plants counts for anything,[i] nor the one who waters, but God who causes the growth. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters work as one,[j] but each will receive his reward according to his work. 9 We are coworkers belonging to God.[k] You are God’s field, God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master-builder I laid a foundation, but someone else builds on it. And each one must be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than what is being laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,[l] 13 each builder’s[m] work will be plainly seen, for the Day[n] will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire[o] will test what kind of work each has done. 14 If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss.[p] He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Young's Literal Translation version
12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;


Salt and Light
Matthew 5:13
“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that[b] they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.


English Standard version
Judgment Before the Great White Throne

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


That's all I have to say.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Peter preached the gospel to them. Many of the Jews believed the gospel and was cut to the heart. Yet they were not saved. They asked what shall we do after hearing and believing in Jesus. Peter said repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and for the remission of sins. In greek the word for there is Eis and it means to obtain.

Peter did not say, “ do nothing you’re already saved because you believe”

Scripture teaches truth faith is belief and works. Not just one. Just because you believe in Jesus does not mean that work makes your worthy. It’s submitting to Christ and his teachings that gets your name placed in the book of life so that you’re saved by grace and mercy.
They were peirced to the heart ...that does not equate to belief...they were convicted. Do you know what repent means?
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
They were peirced to the heart ...that does not equate to belief...they were convicted. Do you know what repent means?
Yes actually it does mean they believed. They heard the gospel and was convicted of its truth. That exactly means they believed.

Repent means to turn around in its truest sense. The nuance of it in scripturally mostly means to rejected wickedness and lies and pursue the opposite.