Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Please stop what

I asked if God gave us a list if f works we must do r he will throw us back in the fire "unsave us"

yu you said yes,

end of story,


There re was no deception, it is plain as day, your denial is deceptive, and is in error,



so are you going to repent, report yourself for preaching works save us, or continue to be shown the deceiver you are?

As for your faith comment, this is works also, your depending in your ability to stay in faith proven by your works, Wh you can not see this deception you have bought into s sad.

You salvation is based on on what you do

my salvation is based on what Christ did

you work to maintain your salvation

i work because. Am saved.

It is the same points. If both can accept their world's and how they see the other
we have a beginning, but it appears the grace group refuse to admit there is an
alternative view, that makes sense.

For me if you can see both, you have a chance at seeing Christ.
But include if I am speaking the truth, everyone who sees this would no longer be
where they are, so those who remain but definition are the hard cases.

So I do love you, and I know in part why you are here, your emotional history leads
you to this place and binds you here. Those so bound will never admit the chords
that bind them else they would work to free them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is the same points. If both can accept their world's and how they see the other
we have a beginning, but it appears the grace group refuse to admit there is an
alternative view, that makes sense.

For me if you can see both, you have a chance at seeing Christ.
But include if I am speaking the truth, everyone who sees this would no longer be
where they are, so those who remain but definition are the hard cases.

So I do love you, and I know in part why you are here, your emotional history leads
you to this place and binds you here. Those so bound will never admit the chords
that bind them else they would work to free them.

This is universalism, it states there are multiple ways to heaven, the grace way and the works way,

as for your last paragraph, you can't resist can you? You feel the need to tell people what they believe, that is not Christlike. You are not God, and in 90% of the cases you try this, you are wrong

How many people have told you that if you would just stop telling people what you think they believe, you would be so much better off, and people may even be able to discuss things with you.

 

[gb9]

this stance of " if you don't agree with me, you must have some type of emotional issue " is really, really off base, and very arrogant.

 

[dcontroversal]

this stance of " if you don't agree with me, you must have some type of emotional issue " is really, really off base, and very arrogant.

It seems to me that the one with the emotional issue is the one who keeps bringing it up hey.....spirituality has nothing to do with emotions, but rather is a simple choice based upon faith...hear the word, believe the word.....that simple...!

 

[PHart]

See the red above? EG says I said we must have works to save us, implying that works saves us.

This is the stunts they pull to reframe what we say , then blast us as liars & works salvationists.

They tell fabricated lies.

EG has been doing the exact same thing to Fran, telling everyone she teaches works salvation, when she posted & posted statements clearly saying we must bear fruit of our faith to prove we are living by faith, otherwise it's dead faith.

She knows that faith without works is dead & that we can't live for Godby dead faith.

Confused? You ought to be, for when they're done with you, people have to sort out everything said, or simply take their word for it.

Taking their word for it is very easy, since they have their team backing up every false accusation they make.

The average joe would believe them hands down. We can see why.

I do not believe in works salvation..... never have, never will.

We are saved by grace through faith..... not saved by grace by faith(one-time belief)

The easy believeism folks want everybody to believe their way. That way is a one-time act of faith & it's all done & over with.

That's not true. The Bible explains that we LIVE by faith, a continuous faith in Christ. The just SHALL LIVE by faith.

If we rebel & stop, we are no longer living by faith, no longer abiding in Christ, & are cut off from the vine (Christ).

EG would have you to believe that you can make a "decision" for Christ, & you're saved, & no matter what you do after that, you're still saved.

Most preachers that teach that doctrine also teach prosperity doctrine, WOF, Hypergrace, & OSAS.

EG, if you don't like me, that's one thing. That doesn't give you the privilege to lie on me.
PLEASE STOP.

You've sized the problem up very well. We must remember that we are battling demonic spirits here in this forum who are hard at work deceiving many in order to cause little ones who believe in Jesus to stumble and go to the eternal fire (Matthew 18:6-9).

The church is in a very bad place right now. I've been in forums since 2005 and it's only in recent years that I've begun to see the extent to which the church has fallen. 'Work' has always been the four letter word never to be uttered in the church but at least both Calvinism and Arminianism agreed that the mark of the believer was his righteous life, and so in that way works were required in salvation. But now this ugly step sister of Calvinism has risen up that has unrighteous people who have departed from the righteousness of Christ in a return to the world as being saved, too. Which we know is in complete contradiction to what John said:

1 John 2:3-6 NASB
3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
​

Notice the last verse. John says the one who claims to be in Him ought to walk as Jesus walked. Why is that? Because that's what righteous people do. That's why works must accompany salvation. Not to earn righteousness, but as the obligatory outcome of a person who has been made righteous in Christ. For John says the one who says 'I know Him' but does not have works of righteousness IS A LIAR. He did not mince words. He said they do not know Him, they are lying. But this recent leaven entering the church that says unrighteous former believers are still saved says John is the liar--unrighteous people are in Him!

At least Calvinism says that the person who falls away was never saved to begin with. But this terrible influx of teaching that says they not only were saved, but still are, is a stumbling that will embolden young converts who believe in Christ to stumble and go to hell (Matthew 18:6-9), particularly in this modern age of readily available pornography and America's love affair with alcohol and drugs. These babes in Christ are not being exhorted to metaphorically cut off the hand, eye, and foot that offends (that is, cut off those teachers who cause the stumbling) but rather are being comforted by those teachers that they can give in to their sin in an unbelieving willful return to their old lives because they are still saved, nonetheless, and will only lose rewards. It reminds me of the prophets in Israel that falsely comforted the people of Israel in their Baal worship, strengthening the hands of evil doers, not turning them to righteousness. For our modern situation, Jesus was very clear that the outcome of the one who causes a little one who believes in him to stumble and go to hell is not good.

But anyway, you've nailed the problem here very well. But also be aware that the demonic spirits that are capturing the hearts and minds of the church in this present time with this 'salvation with no works to accompany it' doctrine are also hard at work tempting and provoking us who resist that doctrine to compromise our own works attached to the salvation we have. Those spirits poke and provoke us until we react inappropriately and then they stand back and shame us for our conduct. It's entirely demonic.

 

[PHart]

...it appears the grace group refuse to admit there is an
alternative view, that makes sense.

This is what I've noticed to.

The automatic response to the word 'works' in the church today is to clap your hands over your ears and repeat the mantra 'salvation is by faith alone not works'. Which is true, of course, salvation is not earned through works. But the problem is they have their hands over their ears and are not able to hear Paul, John, and James' arguments that if you do not have that which accompanies salvation (Hebrews 6:9-10 love/work) you are simply showing yourself to not know Him in salvation. And so for that reason work is a required part of a genuine salvation experience. Not because those works earn salvation, but because that is what people who have the righteousness of Christ do:

1 John 3:7-8
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil
​

The deception that John speaks of above is very rampant in the church today. Many are deceived that the person living unrighteously (as opposed to struggling with sin) is indeed righteous in Christ by virtue of a past, but works-less, confession of faith in Christ. It's a deception on a grand scale. And I think it is pornography and substance abuse at this present time that are making the church so readily accepting of this message of stumbling designed to send little ones who believe in Jesus to hell and which has crept in unawares into the church. As you well know, to simply suggest a Christian can actually be victorious over sin (as difficult as the struggle may indeed be) is to arouse some of the most virulent anger and hatred I've ever seen in the church.

 

[PHart]

...believers can be UNFAITHFUL (not that they should) and have works of wood, hay and stubble....

How would you describe works of wood, hay and stubble if FAITHFUL works are of GOLD, SILVER and PRECIOUS STONES?

Good question.

In 1 Corinthians 3:8-15, the work that makes it through the Judgment is not your personal works of righteousness. In context, the work that may or may not survive the coming Judgment is your work in the building and field of God. Some people we preach and teach to in our labor in the building and field of God will never become imperishable. They will be exposed for who they really are and will be burned up in the Judgment, not pass through it. The person who burns up will not be on the other side to be your reward for your labor in the building and field of God. You yourself will be saved, of course (provided you were not teaching stumbling doctrines--Matthew 18:6-9), but you will have brought no one with you to be a reward for you in the kingdom as taught in the following passages:

1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB
Are you not my work in the Lord?

1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB
19For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?

Philippians 2:15-16 NASB
...prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

That's why it is so important that we teach doctrines of faith in Christ that lead people to righteous lives, so we can have reward on the other side for that labor, and so we won't condemn ourselves for causing little ones who believe in Jesus to stop believing in Jesus and take false comfort in a return to an unbelieving, works-less 'faith' that can not save. For sure is the warning of scripture for the person who tears down the building of God, not builds it up:

1 Corinthians 3: NASB
16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

 

[PeterJens]

This is universalism, it states there are multiple ways to heaven, the grace way and the works way,

as for your last paragraph, you can't resist can you? You feel the need to tell people what they believe, that is not Christlike. You are not God, and in 90% of the cases you try this, you are wrong

How many people have told you that if you would just stop telling people what you think they believe, you would be so much better off, and people may even be able to discuss things with you.

Ok my friend. Another straw man. We have the truth and any other view is false.
What is condescending, is suggesting I am telling people what they believe.

You are the one defining the arena not me. I am talking about biblical faith and
it's constituent parts. You refuse like others refuse to talk theology and life.
But we will stand as testifiers to Gods word.

 

[Grace777x70]

​

The deception that John speaks of above is very rampant in the church today. Many are deceived that the person living unrighteously (as opposed to struggling with sin) is indeed righteous in Christ by virtue of a past, but works-less, confession of faith in Christ..

What is the difference between someone that is sinning in their "struggling with sin" and someone else that is sinning? In your interpretation of those that "do sinning" - they would be of the devil which would include all Christians at some time in their life.


No true Christian loves to sin - it's against our nature.

( I am vehemently against all forms of sinning from living a homosexual lifestyle to living a self-righteous works-based religion that denies the work of Christ )


The truth of the real gospel message which most people seem to miss is that Christ has made us righteous when we heard the message of Him. We don't make ourselves righteous - that is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the very work of Christ.

Romans 5:17 says that those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness ( notice it is a gift - not something you work for ) - these will reign in life through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Works-based believing is an anti-Christ belief system that denies Christ Himself and it is the worst doctrine that the enemy has ever put into the mind of man to pervert the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work.

Preach Christ and Him crucified and that we too are crucified with Him and the sins of the flesh will fall off us like dead leaves on a tree. We don't water down the gospel to deny Christ's work by turning it into a works-based - self-righteousness religion.

 

[PeterJens]

this stance of " if you don't agree with me, you must have some type of emotional issue " is really, really off base, and very arrogant.

You are right, spot on, except if what I am sharing is true.
Mary Magdalene washed Jesus's feet with her hair. Do you understand what that takes?
The bumblebees, the devotion, the insight, the honour, the gift of love.

If you cannot see the emotion here, or in Mary at the tomb, "Mary", "Master"
A loving relationship is bathed in feeling, it is who we are. If you want testimony about how
far you are from truth, you deny emotions are at the core. God loves with a passion, so do
we. No one dies for another because of facts!!!!!

 

[PeterJens]

It seems to me that the one with the emotional issue is the one who keeps bringing it up hey.....spirituality has nothing to do with emotions, but rather is a simple choice based upon faith...hear the word, believe the word.....that simple...!

You are dead right again. I do have an emotional issue with the Lord, I love Him.

A simple choice!!!!! How many creeds are there, how many different issues, some ok some critical,
so no simple choice, but rather the hardest challenges we will ever face.

 

[Grace777x70]

All of us know what the life of a Christian looks like when Christ is being manifested in and through our lives.

Where the dis-connect comes is that works-based belief systems tries to "mandate" the fruit of the spirit in people and if they don't have the fruit that they have or think people should have in a given time - then they say that they are not saved or the anti-Christ doctrine that our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire.

We are saved by the life of the Lord Jesus Christ which is in us in our new creation. We are now learning how to walk by the spirit - which is our spirit in union with Christ by the Holy Spirit ( whom Jesus said would be in us forever - John 14:16 ).

Romans 5:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards God Himself, others and ourselves.

I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us. Rom. 12:2

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.

This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.

 

[PeterJens]

What is the difference between someone that is sinning in their "struggling with sin" and someone else that is sinning? In your interpretation of those that "do sinning" - they would be of the devil which would include all Christians at some time in their life.


No true Christian loves to sin - it's against our nature.

( I am vehemently against all forms of sinning from living a homosexual lifestyle to living a self-righteous works-based religion that denies the work of Christ )


The truth of the real gospel message which most people seem to miss is that Christ has made us righteous when we heard the message of Him. We don't make ourselves righteous - that is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the very work of Christ.

Romans 5:17 says that those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness ( notice it is a gift - not something you work for ) - these will reign in life through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Works-based believing is an anti-Christ belief system that denies Christ Himself and it is the worst doctrine that the enemy has ever put into the mind of man to pervert the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work.

Preach Christ and Him crucified and that we too are crucified with Him and the sins of the flesh will fall off us like dead leaves on a tree. We don't water down the gospel to deny Christ's work by turning it into a works-based - self-righteousness religion.

Some would say the speaker here is following the heresy of the Nicolations.

Why, because of the sting about anti-Christ and righteous walking.
Beware any who condemn righteous loving behaviour.

God says in the Spirit all we do is a blessing.
But here the enemy wishes to bind the people in self condemnation.

These folk see evil in the people of God. That is not the Lords way.
The Lord sees love and corrects sin. But only the pure in heart see
this, which is testimony enough.

 

[dcontroversal]

One thing that amazes me is the fact that the workers for consistently twist the fact that we have said 1000 times that a true believer will bear fruit, have works and or not live a continual lifestyle of sin.....the only contention is the means of biblical salvation which the bible states is ETERNAL....

Again the bible is clear.....The fruit, works, and walk DO NOT EARN, KEEP or FINISH off salvation, but rather are the RESULTS OF SALVATION......it is not that difficult....PAUL was clear, JESUS was clear, JOHN was clear....it is faith ALONE into the work of CHRIST that saves....

IF YOU BELIEVE in your HEART (mind) that GOD has raised him from the dead thou shalt BE SAVED
WITH the mind man believes unto righteousness and with his MOUTH confession is made UNTO SALVATION
It pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE
HE that BELIEVES on the SON is having EVERLASTING LIFE
IN the grace you are HAVING BEEN SAVED OUT OF FAITH
NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US
.....WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT IS HAVING ETERNAL LIFE
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED

IT IS FAITH that SAVES and ANY WORK, FRUIT, RIGHTEOUS WALK is a direct RESULT of CHRIST IN US because of BEING SAVED.........IT is NOT that difficult to understand.......and YES it is simple.....

BE NOT REMOVED from the SIMPLICITY that is FOUND in CHRIST!

 

[Sully]

Ok so my latest question for the workers against is this..


Proverbs 16:7


KJ21
When man’s ways please the Lord, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

ASV
When a man’s ways please Jehovah, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

AMP
When a man’s ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

AMPC
When a man’s ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

BRG
When a man’s ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

CSB
When a person’s ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

CEB
When people draw favor from the Lord, even their enemies are at peace with them.

CJB
When a man’s ways please Adonai, he makes even the man’s enemies be at peace with him.

CEV
When we please the Lord, even our enemies make friends with us.

DARBY
When a man's ways please Jehovah, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

DRA
When the ways of man shall please the Lord, he will convert even his enemies to peace.

ERV
When people live to please the Lord, even their enemies will be at peace with them.

ESV
When a man's ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

ESVUK
When a man's ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

EXB
When ·people live so that they please the Lord [[SUP]L [/SUP]people’s paths draw the Lord’s favor] even their enemies will make peace with them.

GNV
When the ways of a man please the Lord, he will make also his enemies at peace with him.

GW
When a person’s ways are pleasing to the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

GNT
When you please the Lord, you can make your enemies into friends.

HCSB
When a man’s ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

ICB
A person should live so that he pleases the Lord. If he does, even his enemies will make peace with him.

ISV
When a person’s ways please the Lord, even his enemies will be at peace with him.

JUB
¶ When a man’s ways please the LORD, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

KJV
When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

AKJV
When a man’s ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

LEB
When the ways of a man are pleasing to Yahweh, even his enemies he will cause to make peace with him.

TLB
When a man is trying to please God, God makes even his worst enemies to be at peace with him.

MSG
When God approves of your life, even your enemies will end up shaking your hand.

MEV
When a man’s ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

NOG
When a person’s ways are pleasing to Yahweh, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

NABRE
When the Lord is pleased with someone’s ways, he makes even enemies be at peace with them.

NASB
When a man’s ways are pleasing to the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

NCV
When people live so that they please the Lord, even their enemies will make peace with them.

NET
When a person’s ways are pleasing to the Lord, he even reconciles his enemies to himself.

NIRV
When the way you live pleases the Lord, he makes even your enemies live at peace with you.

NIV
When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way, he causes their enemies to make peace with them.

NIVUK
When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way, he causes their enemies to make peace with them.

NKJV
When a man’s ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

NLV
When the ways of a man are pleasing to the Lord, He makes even those who hate him to be at peace with him.

NLT
When people’s lives please the Lord, even their enemies are at peace with them.

NRSV
When the ways of people please the Lord, he causes even their enemies to be at peace with them.

NRSVA
When the ways of people please the Lord, he causes even their enemies to be at peace with them.

NRSVACE
When the ways of people please the Lord, he causes even their enemies to be at peace with them.

NRSVCE
When the ways of people please the Lord, he causes even their enemies to be at peace with them.

OJB
When drakhei ish please Hashem, He maketh even his oyevim to be in shalom with him.

RSV
When a man’s ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

RSVCE
When a man’s ways please the Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

TLV
When one’s ways are pleasing to Adonai, he makes even his enemies be at peace with him.

VOICE
When people make good choices, He is pleased; He even causes their enemies to live peacefully near them.

WEB
When a man’s ways please Yahweh, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

WYC
When the ways of (a) man please the Lord, he shall convert, yea, his enemies to peace.

YLT
When a man's ways please Jehovah, even his enemies, He causeth to be at peace with him.



So it seems the lord rids your enemies..... soo would this say only when you do the works i require will you be saved....???????????????????????

Really put down the shovel and listen carefully especially at the 16 minute mark , if you get a minute from tasks and toiling....

http://www.livinggodministries.net/living_god_ministries/radio_archive/audio_files/love_god_more.mp3

 

[Grace777x70]

The church is in the mess that it is currently in is because of the watering down of the gospel of the grace of Christ. ( But the Lord is changing all of that with the preaching of the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work. )

The preaching and the teaching of Christ and His finished work is the only thing that has the power to effect real transformation in us Christians. Religion doesn't have it.

Behavior modification ( of which works-based preaching is based on ) which has been preached has watered down the grace of God from operating in their lives.

The works-based non-gospel has no power to transform Christians. The church is the way it is because of the non-gospel of works that has been preached to them.

But the Lord is changing all that and bringing the purity of the gospel of the grace of Christ back into His beloved church. He will be faithful to all of us. We just have to un-learn so much religious garbage and have our minds renewed to the true gospel of the grace of Christ.

Grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world.

 

[PHart]

What is the difference between someone that is sinning in their "struggling with sin" and someone else that is sinning?

The believer who is struggling with sin is living a '70x7' relationship with God through Jesus:

Matthew 18:21-22 NASB
...“Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
​

He sins again and again in his struggle with sin, yet he returns to the Lord with every failure and Jesus forgives him again and again in a '70x7' relationship with him.


But the 'believer' who is not struggling with the sin he habitually lives in and does not seek nor believe in Christ's forgiveness but has accepted his sinful lifestyle, he is the 'someone else' in the church who is sinning that you refer to:

Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
​

So, we have to examine ourselves and ask, "which 'sinner' am I?" Am I the 'sinner' who continually relies on the forgiveness of God in Christ, as evidenced by my growth in righteous living through the grace of God's 70x7 forgiveness that I seek, or am I the 'sinner' who doesn't care about the forgiveness of God and embraces my sin without a thought and waxes worse into the sin that binds, perhaps thinking I'm saved despite my unbelief because that's what I was told?


The 'sinner' who continues in his reliance on the grace of God is safe in the salvation that is secured solely through the forgiveness of God, not works. But the 'sinner' who has departed the faith, or never believed to begin with, and as a result, goes back to his old lifestyle of unrepentant, unconfessed sin has nothing. His unrighteous, unconfessed lifestyle of sin is the evidence of the absence of Christ/ eternal life in him. That's what John says. Whether he ever had it, or not is not the issue. The point is, John says he is a LIAR if he claims he has eternal life, yet lives as an unbeliever. But so many in the church are convinced that despite his unbelief, and the unrighteous life that springs from that unbelief, he may be saved, because as they say, "salvation is by grace not by works". It's a terrible, terrible misunderstanding of the gospel. But, just as James said, faith that does not work is the faith that can not save (James 2:14). Not because work earns salvation, but because the faith in God's forgiveness that saves all by itself is the faith that changes a person into one who has that which accompanies salvation and is not in danger of being burned up in the end:

Hebrews 6:9-12 NASB
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.​

 

[Grace777x70]

Really put down the shovel and listen carefully especially at the 16 minute mark , if you get a minute from tasks and toiling....

http://www.livinggodministries.net/living_god_ministries/radio_archive/audio_files/love_god_more.mp3

This is a great teaching that blesses us and speaks the truth of how true transformation comes to the believer and it is all by knowing God and what He has done for us in Christ.

I especially liked the thoughts on the "If you love Me - keep My commandments". It is very liberating and makes you fall deeper in love with the Lord and to rely completely on Him alone for life and living.

Thank you for sharing that with us!

 

[Sully]

The church is in the mess that it is currently in is because of the watering down of the gospel of the grace of Christ. ( But the Lord is changing all of that with the preaching of the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work. )

The preaching and the teaching of Christ and His finished work is the only thing that has the power to effect real transformation in us Christians. Religion doesn't have it.

Behavior modification ( of which works-based preaching is based on ) which has been preached has watered down the grace of God from operating in their lives.

The works-based non-gospel has no power to transform Christians. The church is the way it is because of the non-gospel of works that has been preached to them.

But the Lord is changing all that and bringing the purity of the gospel of the grace of Christ back into His beloved church. He will be faithful to all of us. We just have to un-learn so much religious garbage and have our minds renewed to the true gospel of the grace of Christ.

Grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world.

And the "water" they use is toxic because it creates a cage believers cannot see they are confined to.

 

[Grace777x70]

The believer who is struggling with sin is living a '70x7' relationship with God through Jesus:

Matthew 18:21-22 NASB
...“Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
​

He sins again and again in his struggle with sin, yet he returns to the Lord with every failure and Jesus forgives him again and again in a '70x7' relationship with him.


But the 'believer' who is not struggling with the sin he habitually lives in and does not seek nor believe in Christ's forgiveness but has accepted his sinful lifestyle, he is the 'someone else' in the church who is sinning that you refer to:

Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
​

So, we have to examine ourselves and ask, "which 'sinner' am I?" Am I the 'sinner' who continually relies on the forgiveness of God in Christ, as evidenced by my growth in righteous living through the grace of God's 70x7 forgiveness that I seek, or am I the 'sinner' who doesn't care about the forgiveness of God and embraces my sin without a thought and waxes worse into the sin that binds, perhaps thinking I'm saved despite my unbelief because that's what I was told?


The 'sinner' who continues in his reliance on the grace of God is safe in the salvation that is secured solely through the forgiveness of God, not works. But the 'sinner' who has departed the faith, or never believed to begin with, and as a result, goes back to his old lifestyle of unrepentant, unconfessed sin has nothing. His unrighteous, unconfessed lifestyle of sin is the evidence of the absence of Christ/ eternal life in him. That's what John says. Whether he ever had it, or not is not the issue. The point is, John says he is a LIAR if he claims he has eternal life, yet lives as an unbeliever. But so many in the church are convinced that despite his unbelief, and the unrighteous life that springs from that unbelief, he may be saved, because as they say, "salvation is by grace not by works". It's a terrible, terrible misunderstanding of the gospel. But, just as James said, faith that does not work is the faith that can not save (James 2:14). Not because work earns salvation, but because the faith in God's forgiveness that saves all by itself is the faith that changes a person into one who has that which accompanies salvation and is not in danger of being burned up in the end:

Hebrews 6:9-12 NASB
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.​

So, in essence both "groups" of people are sinning and so they "should be of the devil" then because they are still sinning.

One is either a "sinner" or a "saint". One is either "in Christ and Christ is in them" or not.

What a horrible religion that is - living by 70x7 ( of course here in this context Jesus is talking about people forgiving others here in this passage and not God's kind of forgiveness that is the gospel message )

The true gospel of the grace of Christ is life-changing when we know that we are free from sin because of Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

I firmly believe in living godly in this present world by the power of the Spirit and by the life of Christ being manifested in and through us.

There is however a counterfeit one which is a works-based self-righteousness one that "mandates" behavior modification and in reality - it is just a work of the flesh.

As far as Hebrews 10:26 goes. All sinning is "willful" but "the" willful sinning talked about to the letter to the "Hebrews" is not what religion has said it is - especially works-based religionists.

Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.

Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.