Office of Evengelist, pastor, teacher. Why?

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#21
Oh yeah I remember you the one that says God is not perfect just ''mature''
still can't read it with understanding huh?
i can offer you this again to help you maybe see why you're deluded...doubt you'll read it though.
see, you've brought God's Holiness and Perfection down to your level...(what's that say about who thinks what about God's PERFECTION?)

The Heresy of Perfectionism

from R.C. Sproul Mar 14, 2011 Category: R.C. Sproul

An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul Was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”
To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

The Heresy of Perfectionism by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog
good luck son
you're going to need it.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#23
I turn my understanding toward God and His word, while ignoring those like you who oppose Him.
keep doing the first part, maybe you'll get it.
keep doing the middle part: i'm okay with that.
and you're wrong about the last part....but you're wrong about everything.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#24
Zone, everything is a broad term. You should know that most lies and deceptions have truth mixed in so people will swallow the sugar coating.....

so 4runner should we listen to people and thank them after they tell us they are from Satan and we are not really God's children since we are not perfect and sinless like God?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#25
Zone, everything is a broad term. You should know that most lies and deceptions have truth mixed in so people will swallow the sugar coating.....

so 4runner should we listen to people and thank them after they tell us they are from Satan and we are not really God's children since we are not perfect and sinless like God?
i know what lies are.
4runner is a novice (Redster's PC term), i say false teacher.
guys like him might get to the real truth one day, but they'll NEVER have the integrity to come back and say they were wrong and apologize for the damage they've done. too much invested.

all that pride.

nothing new under the sun.
 
May 21, 2009
3,955
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#26
go study properly linda.
your stuff is made up.
nobody said anything is dead.
Paul said the REAL supernatural offices and gifts would cease. and they did.
whatever you're into now is closer to paganism than Christianity.
now that's foolisness.

You zone are lost, blind and doing Satan's teaching. You repent and go study. The power of God is alive and working well through his children. It is not working through people who are not his. Be careful zone. I love you and want the best for you. He said that because of people like you. They did cease in you and others. Read more please.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#27
I know there seems to be allot of these threads. But i hate posting on others threads, because i feel it take the light of of them and puts it on me. So I post my own. The point of this thread is to get YOUR ANSWERS(even if they are opinions) of WHY there are still THESE 3 offices in work, But not the other two. PLEASE no snarky responces.

Ephesians 4:11-And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

This is saying that HE(The LORD Jesus Christ) Gave us the offices of ALL 5(or 4) are for the equipping, and building up, untill we atain unity in the body of Christ...etc.


So, That means that a:
Apostle is for this purpose.
Prophet is for this purpose.
Evangelist is for this purpose.
Pastor is for this purpose.
Teacher is for this purpose.

I know there is Satans Counterfit, of everything God has, and that would make it FALSE. but forget about the FALSE for a minute.

NOW We have Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher. But WHY? Why do we have these 3? What is there purpose?


PLEASE i want to know WHY we have THESE THREE. Thank you. Jesus bless you.
An evangelists is one who goes out and evangelizes (spreads the gospel outside the churhc.

A pastor is a shepherd. He helps guide the flock.

A teacher is one with the special gift of teaching (even though we all should teach. some people have been given a special gift of teaching.

two of these might be shared by one person (pastor teacher) they may not. I would doubt an evangelist would be a pastor. he would be removed from his other gift. one cna't evangelize and Sheppard the flock. it would be difficult.
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#28
An evangelists is one who goes out and evangelizes (spreads the gospel outside the churhc.

A pastor is a shepherd. He helps guide the flock.

A teacher is one with the special gift of teaching (even though we all should teach. some people have been given a special gift of teaching.

two of these might be shared by one person (pastor teacher) they may not. I would doubt an evangelist would be a pastor. he would be removed from his other gift. one cna't evangelize and Sheppard the flock. it would be difficult.
No, See, i guess thank you for answering. BUT you didnt answer my question. I didnt ask what in your opinion is the defination of them. I ASKED What is there purpose. What do they do?






THIS did not answer my question Zone.


What do Evangelists, Teachers, and pastors EXIST for.

WHAT is there purpose. Those quotes from other men didnt answer my question. Ephesians says they exist to build up, edifiy and unify the church. Do you agree? Yes or no? If you dont agree then Why do we have them?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#29
THIS did not answer my question Zone.
What do Evangelists, Teachers, and pastors EXIST for.

WHAT is there purpose. Those quotes from other men didnt answer my question. Ephesians says they exist to build up, edifiy and unify the church. Do you agree? Yes or no? If you dont agree then Why do we have them?
if you went through all the materail provided your question would be answered.
the Apostolic era evangelist was an office that has also ceased. it was a sepcial office that required the same Power to prophesy and wotness to the truth of Christ as the others. they had no Bible to preach from DF.

Philip was an evangelist. they had new revelation and were especialy equipped for their for their mission.Power from on High.

today we have pastor/teachers, and a universal priesthood of believers who are all perfectly capable of sharing the Gospel message and bringing people to saving faith by bringing them to the word.
love zone.
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#30
if you went through all te materail provided your question would be answered.
the Apostolic era evangelist was an office that has also ceased.
Philip was an evangelist. they had new revelation for their task.
Power from on High.

today we have pastor/teachers, and a universal priesthood of believers who are all perfectly capable of sharing the Gospel message and bringing people to saving faith by bringing them to the word.
love zone.

They had pastor/teacher back then. They had a "universal priesthood of believers back then". And they were only SOME were "PERFECTLY" capable of sharing the gospel and brignign peopel to Jesus. ALL these thigns you say WE do now, they had, and they aslo had the gifts, and prophets..etc


But you are not answering my Quetion. You avoided it.
This is about Ephesians 4

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: "

FIRST of all it says HE, JESUS through His holy spirit, did this.

Secondly, its for perfecting the saints, work of the ministry(of the gospel) and edifying the BODY. UNTILL we ALL come to the unity of the faith. We are not there yet. Was not there in PAULS time, STILL not there.

So YOU, are saying that Evangelists, pastors, and teachers ARE NOT "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"

IS that it?
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#31
Zso 4runner should we listen to people and thank them after they tell us they are from Satan and we are not really God's children since we are not perfect and sinless like God?
Ummm, no??????

Sanctification is a process. However those that teach God cannot perfect us, are teaching a satanic doctrine.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#32

You zone are lost, blind and doing Satan's teaching. You repent and go study. The power of God is alive and working well through his children. It is not working through people who are not his. Be careful zone. I love you and want the best for you. He said that because of people like you. They did cease in you and others. Read more please.
True, so true
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#34
NO, THATS NOT IT.

Ok, So if THEY are still there for the purposes of what ephesians 4 says they are.


Then WHERE does it say the other two don't exist? if we are supposed to get ALL thigns from the Bible. WHERE in the Bible does it say that?

ALL FIVE(or four) are for that purpose. so if those THREE are for that purpose, then that means that purpsoe is NOT DONE!!!

So if that purpose is not done. then the other other two MUST still be in affect. Other wise you are leaning on understadning of men, and the Carnal mind, which is EMNITY with God.

I KNOW that a great majority is FALSE. But i also know that they are still TRUE ones in existence. In my Spirit i know, from the Bible. Nothing says otherwise.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#35
He "gave" "some Apostles"they laid the foundation, its still here. They penned scripture, its still here.

some Prophets, still here, recorded in scripture, their part in the foundation, still here. Built on Christ. Chapter 4 build on Chapter 2:20

2:21-22 fits good with 4:12-16

Evangelist, pastors,teachers....within the church throughout its history proclaim the work left by the Apostles and Prophets.So they never left
as far as the effect and work they finished.
 
D

Deadflesh

Guest
#36
He "gave" "some Apostles"they laid the foundation, its still here. They penned scripture, its still here.

some Prophets, still here, recorded in scripture, their part in the foundation, still here. Built on Christ. Chapter 4 build on Chapter 2:20

2:21-22 fits good with 4:12-16

Evangelist, pastors,teachers....within the church throughout its history proclaim the work left by the Apostles and Prophets.So they never left
as far as the effect and work they finished.

Thank you Abiding. Quick to the point, and YOUR words. I need to look it over. But a question then the apostles adn prophets foundation is what builds up and edifies? and unifies? becasue i KNOW that the body is not unified, nor perfected.



And Zone, Im sorry, i think i may have, again come off biting or a bit strong...wasnt my intent, but i re-read my responces..and i didnt like the tone(i know my tone ) So im sorry.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#37
Thank you Abiding. Quick to the point, and YOUR words. I need to look it over. But a question then the apostles adn prophets foundation is what builds up and edifies? and unifies? becasue i KNOW that the body is not unified, nor perfected.



And Zone, Im sorry, i think i may have, again come off biting or a bit strong...wasnt my intent, but i re-read my responces..and i didnt like the tone(i know my tone ) So im sorry.

to answer that yes "in affect" since everything edifying and unifying comes from that foundation...the gospel,
with the scriptures. With empowering grace from the HolySpirit.
 
L

Lifelike

Guest
#38
go study properly linda.
your stuff is made up.
nobody said anything is dead.
Paul said the REAL supernatural offices and gifts would cease. and they did.
whatever you're into now is closer to paganism than Christianity.
now that's foolisness.

Yeah Paul said they would cease 1Cor 13:9-10, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." ...

Your assumption that "that which is perfect" is the canon of scripture is not provable, I believe when "that which is perfect" comes its talking about the end of the age when Christ returns and we no longer "see through a glass dimly" but instead see Him in His fullness as He really is.
 
L

Lifelike

Guest
#39
An evangelists is one who goes out and evangelizes (spreads the gospel outside the churhc.

A pastor is a shepherd. He helps guide the flock.

A teacher is one with the special gift of teaching (even though we all should teach. some people have been given a special gift of teaching.

two of these might be shared by one person (pastor teacher) they may not. I would doubt an evangelist would be a pastor. he would be removed from his other gift. one cna't evangelize and Sheppard the flock. it would be difficult.

All leaders in Gods Church need to be apt to teach 2 Timothy 2:24, but a "teacher" will have the ability to teach as his/ her primary function. An evangelist can also stir up and motivate those that are saved to change, they can passionately present ideas and a lot of decisions are made in the presence of a true evangelist.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#40
You zone are lost, blind and doing Satan's teaching. You repent and go study. The power of God is alive and working well through his children. It is not working through people who are not his. Be careful zone. I love you and want the best for you. He said that because of people like you. They did cease in you and others. Read more please.
You accused me of witchcraft and gave no explanation for it. If you have a good basis for doing so, then I need to hear it instead of you avoiding it. I know you have the grace of God in your heart and you are very zealous in what you believe, but accusing a brother of witchcraft is a little more serious than personal sin. Linda, you have the floor, so take your time and give me an explanation.