OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[Jason0047]

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You could receive a car tax free as a gift from someone. But that does not mean that such a gift cannot be taken away, though. For if you run red lights, text and drive, drive drunk, and or hit pedestrians.... you are not going to have that free gift for long.

For can you think of any gift today in the real world that you can completely destroy and yet have it remain the same?

I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples.

Also, Ephesians 2:8-9 is in context to....

Ephesians 2:2-3 that says,
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Meaning, you walked in times past according to your former lusts fulfilling the desires of the flesh in your old life. But believers are not that way anymore.

Also, check out this short video here on the topic of "Faith vs. Works."

[VIDEO=youtube;ThNDxfvb6EQ]https://youtu.be/ThNDxfvb6EQ[/VIDEO]

It might be helpful to you.

 

[Sirk]

Of course it is. But don't expect him to admit it. His overwhelming internal "must" is, above all else, that he be right. That is his god. Which is why is not saved.

As I turned the question around on myself I felt the tug of...sirk what are your idols? Your pride, your puffed up when you make a witty post attitude that you sometimes feel etc. The difference between me and many others is that I am not afraid of shining the light on my sin. I'm a dork, a smart alec but I am sincere and I love Jesus. There are very few around these parts that will say what I just said but instead will continually lumber jack on everyone else's mountain.

 

[Utah]

You could receive a car tax free as a gift from someone. But that does not mean that such a gift cannot be taken away, though. For if you run red lights, text and drive, drive drunk, and or hit pedestrians.... you are not going to have that free gift for long.

For can you think of any gift today in the real world that you can completely destroy and yet have it remain the same?

I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples.

Also, Ephesians 2:8-9 is in context to....

Ephesians 2:2-3 that says,
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Meaning, you walked in times past according to your former lusts fulfilling the desires of the flesh in your old life. But believers are not that way anymore.

Also, check out this short video here on the topic of "Faith vs. Works."

[VIDEO=youtube;ThNDxfvb6EQ]https://youtu.be/ThNDxfvb6EQ[/VIDEO]

It might be helpful to you.

Faith + works = salvation.

In other words, "For God so loved the world He gave His own Son, that whoever believes in Him and works, works, works shall not perish but have everlasting life." Gotcha!

 

[Grandpa]

Doesn't a legalist have to deny OSAS?

It wouldn't make sense to be a legalist and then agree with OSAS would it?

No, if you don't do the things the legalists think must be done then I am sure salvation must be on the line. Otherwise there is no power in their anti-gospel.

Interesting thought about people who are backed into a corner with their "theology".

Likewise, I suppose someone who believes in Grace through Faith and it being a Gift of God wouldn't believe that Gift could be taken away. The scriptures say that God doesn't repent of His Gifts. So I guess you would have to be a dumb believer in Grace to believe that Grace would be taken away.

What is Grace for anyway? Is there ever a time when we don't need it? Is it just for kids?

I wonder how we can see things so differently.

 

[Sirk]

Doesn't a legalist have to deny OSAS?

It wouldn't make sense to be a legalist and then agree with OSAS would it?

No, if you don't do the things the legalists think must be done then I am sure salvation must be on the line. Otherwise there is no power in their anti-gospel.

Interesting thought about people who are backed into a corner with their "theology".

Likewise, I suppose someone who believes in Grace through Faith and it being a Gift of God wouldn't believe that Gift could be taken away. The scriptures say that God doesn't repent of His Gifts. So I guess you would have to be a dumb believer in Grace to believe that Grace would be taken away.

What is Grace for anyway? Is there ever a time when we don't need it? Is it just for kids?

I wonder how we can see things so differently.

The intersting thing about human nature is that even Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. Just think of all the secretaries, plumbers, electricians...thousands of normal people just like you and me who turned a blind eye to it all. All of us have the potential be put between that proverbial rock and a hard place. Until we have and come out clean...we have no business judging anothers walk or whether or not they are saved. Pride most certainly comes before the fall.


As an aside...the people like Jason who yell the loudest are the ones that eventually end up putting the ugliest stain on the Gospel.

 

[Grandpa]

You could receive a car tax free as a gift from someone. But that does not mean that such a gift cannot be taken away, though. For if you run red lights, text and drive, drive drunk, and or hit pedestrians.... you are not going to have that free gift for long.

For can you think of any gift today in the real world that you can completely destroy and yet have it remain the same?

I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples.

Also, Ephesians 2:8-9 is in context to....

Ephesians 2:2-3 that says,
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Meaning, you walked in times past according to your former lusts fulfilling the desires of the flesh in your old life. But believers are not that way anymore.

.

Do you realize how ridiculous this response is???

How does a person destroy a priceless gift given by God Himself? You would have to be more powerful than God. That's pretty powerful.

 

[psychomom]

Is it just for kids?

(you may be thinking of Trix. )

sorry, gentlemen...carry on.

 

[DesiredHaven]

The full context of John as it pertains to the Vine and branches

Please note dead are removed (later thrown in the fire) whereas the ones that bear fruit get purged/pruned



InSpirit gets called out on my highlighted post on the branches (specifically) which are shown being taken away in John 15:2a and goes into the fire in John 15:6



VW points out that someone needs to deal with "this crap"
because according to VW there is a big problem in that the branches that bear not fruit and get taken away ( only to be cast into the fire) BUT they are NOT REALLY "taken away"

but rather "gentle lifted up"




No kidding, a strife is created over which word best describes how a dead branch is removed (ever so gently so) "lifted up" only to be tossed into the fire (John 15:6)

This verse

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away[SUP]G142[/SUP]: <--------------------- Click here

Brings up this...

Straw the definition shows both and how they are used



These particular branches (look for yourself) get thrown into the fire so who cares how they are removed from the Vine, Jesus shows His Father (the Husbandman) does this.

Oh and lets pretend it cannot be obvious and just look at every possible translation

John 15:2 - Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.


But what have we learned?

That a branch that bears not fruit is GENTLY lifted up with VW (only to be cast into the fire, not soapy water as he earlier suggests).

See the ridiculousness and the amount of labour it takes to actually continue to post against every lie against the word of God?

Now that that word was adressed (lets further confuse the whole thing, hoping no one notices that blunder)

And what do we have here? Surprise surprise its but a new word....

Again, a bad translation by the KJV. The word doesn't translate "purged." It translates "pruned." You're confusing Christ's words, and it appears you do so deliberately. The Lord Himself will deal with you on that. My exegesis is correct. Yours is not.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Same word, see definition its all a huge word game here

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth[SUP]G2508[/SUP] it, that it may bring forth more fruit.




Both words are used in various translations, its not rocket science its trying to ofuscate things, no one can be that dense not to see that the verse makes it self evident

and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth[SUP]G2508[/SUP] it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason I might not agree with everything you share even as you are aware well aware that I have had you on ignore for quite some time till just recently, but theres one thing you have going for you, the way you always respond. That would even cause me pause, and its that is you always respond to such nastiness in a way which I believe glorifies God. If only just in that I might agree.

I do want to at least encourage you in that.

Thats something I covet in you for myself.

I let it affect me inwardly and I believe when I let it that will naturally spill out into my responses.

You set a good example in that (even though I hate to admit it, you really do).

You are often by yourself being jumped on from all sides (right or wrong) regardless you are doing something right, and I hope you find it encouraging to know others do perceive this (even those, who like me have disagareed with you) and who can give you a kudos in that which commendable in any man of God.

Thats all I will say

Dear Desired Haven:

You do not how overjoyed I am to talk with you again. I appreciate your loving kindness towards me in Christ. May God bless your heart. I know we may not agree on all things as believers and that is okay. There are many topics that are not salvation issues; And we are to come together for the worse and not for the better. Anyways, if I have said anything to offend you before, that was not my intent. Please know that. I am the type of person who wants to make peace with everyone. My goal is to love everyone (Including my enemies). So please know that I do care and love you in Christ Jesus and I am honored to have you as a sister in the Lord (So very much).

In fact, I have to be honest with you, there are quite a few times I have enjoyed reading your highlighted studies before.

So thank you for hearing me again.

As for how I respond to others: Well, this was a life lesson I learned with God. So the glory goes to God (of course). For there is one verse that God used in my life that really had a huge impact on me. That verse is....

Romans 12:20 KJV
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

When I worked at a certain job once in the past, they did a lot of things there that I had thought were cruel and inappropriate. I mean, things were really bad there. But then a verse came to my mind.

Romans 12:20.

That was my verse in how I was going to get vengeance. That was how I was going to get justice in such a dark place. For I realized that if I want to put out a fire, that water was needed to put it out and not fire. I thought to myself at that time, that if I could do good unto my enemies, then God will bring vengeance upon the wrong that they were doing there. I thought that God is going to repay the injustice that was done in that place for me doing good back towards their bad ways. But in time, I came to realize that I did not want vengeance to fall upon them. I came to realize that I wanted them to truly know Jesus Christ. I wanted them to know what it was like to be changed and different whereby one would not want to hurt anyone. For just as Jesus said to the Father to forgive those who were crucifying him, and just as Steven asked the Lord to not hold their crimes of stoning him against them.... I too desired no harm to come to them in time and I started to see the real point of Romans 12:20. It was not for me to have God get vengeance on them by me putting that verse into practice. It was for me to learn how to love like God and to trust that God will do what is right and good in all matters concerning justice.

So when I do good now. It is not for God to take vengeance. But it is for the purpose to simply love as God loves. But will justice be done? Yes, of course. I leave the justice part in God's hands. I desire no one to be put at harm. But I do know God will punish those who will rebel against Him. God has a plan and justice will be carried out by our Lord perfectly. But God has called me to love and not to hate. So I speak back in love and with kindness (to the best of my ability) knowing that I am not being overcome by evil, but that I am overcoming evil with good.

For are there times I want to say something smart back? You betcha. But I stop myself. I control myself and don't do it. Because if I do, it would put me ont he path of spiralling down to their level of lashing out. I do not want to lash out but I want to love them like Christ loves them.

Another encouraging verse for me is in Matthew 5. For when others say all manner of evil against you.... we are to .... "Rejoice!"

Anyways, thank you so much sister for your love back.
I am so happy to talk with you in the Lord again.

Peace, love, and blessings be unto you in great measure from the Lord Jesus Christ.

With loving kindness,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


....

 

[DesiredHaven]

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


I prayed about this once, a few years back. Some of the detractors of Salvation brought up scripture that seemed to contradict the Power of God and His Salvation. So I asked the Lord Jesus "Can we lose our salvation?". A lot of the time the Lord doesn't answer. Or sometimes He takes a long time to answer and I have to keep asking over and over. But this time His Answer was immediate. I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Pretty awesome, huh?

I love the scriptures, I have no contention with them

 

[Sirk]

Dear Desired Haven:

You do not how overjoyed I am to talk with you again. I appreciate your loving kindness towards me in Christ. May God bless your heart. I know we may not agree on all things as believers and that is okay. There are many topics that are not salvation issues; And we are to come together for the worse and not for the better. Anyways, if I have said anything to offend you before, that was not my intent. Please know that. I am the type of person who wants to make peace with everyone. My goal is to love everyone (Including my enemies). So please know that I do care and love you in Christ Jesus and I am honored to have you as a sister in the Lord (So very much).

In fact, I have to be honest with you, there are quite a few times I have enjoyed reading your highlighted studies before.

So thank you for hearing me again.

As for how I respond to others: Well, this was a life lesson I learned with God. So the glory goes to God (of course). For there is one verse that God used in my life that really had a huge impact on me. That verse is....

Romans 12:20 KJV
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

When I worked at a certain job once in the past, they did a lot of things there that I had thought were cruel and inappropriate. I mean, things were really bad there. But then a verse came to my mind.

Romans 12:20.

That was my protection verse. That was how I was going to get justice in such a dark place. For I realized that if I want to put out a fire, that water was needed to put it out and not fire. I thought to myself at that time, that if I could do good unto my enemies, then God will bring vengeance upon the wrong that they were doing there. I thought that God is going to repay the injustice that was done in that place for me doing good back towards their bad ways. But in time, I came to realize that I did not want vengeance to fall upon them. I came to realize that I wanted them to truly know Jesus Christ. I wanted them to know what it was like to be changed and different whereby one would not want to hurt anyone. For just as Jesus said to the Father to forgive those who were crucifying him, and just as Steven asked the Lord to not hold their crimes of stoning him against them.... I too desired no harm to come to them in time and I started to see the real point of Romans 12:20. It was not for me to have God get vengeance on them by me putting that verse into practice. It was for me to learn how to love like God and to trust that God will do what is right and good in all matters concerning justice.

So when I do good now. It is not for God to take vengeance. But it is for the purpose to simply love as God loves. But will justice be done? Yes, of course. I leave the justice part in God's hands. I desire no one to be put at harm. But I do know God will punish those who will rebel against Him. God has a plan and justice will be carried out by our Lord perfectly. But God has called me to love and not to hate. So I speak back in love and with kindness (to the best of my ability) knowing that I am not being overcome by evil, but that I am overcoming evil with good.

For are there times I want to say something smart back? You betcha. But I stop myself. I control myself and don't do it. Because if I do, it would put me ont he path of spiralling down to their level of lashing out. I do not want to lash out but I want to love them like Christ loves them.

Another encouraging verse for me is in Matthew 5. For when others say all manner of evil against you.... we are to .... "Rejoice!"

Holy crap! This guy even tries to sound like Paul!

 

[DesiredHaven]

Dear Desired Haven:

You do not how overjoyed I am to talk with you again. I appreciate your loving kindness towards me in Christ. May God bless your heart. I know we may not agree on all things as believers and that is okay. There are many topics that are not salvation issues; And we are to come together for the worse and not for the better. Anyways, if I have said anything to offend you before, that was not my intent. Please know that. I am the type of person who wants to make peace with everyone. My goal is to love everyone (Including my enemies). So please know that I do care and love you in Christ Jesus and I am honored to have you as a sister in the Lord (So very much).

In fact, I have to be honest with you, there are quite a few times I have enjoyed reading your highlighted studies before.

So thank you for hearing me again.

As for how I respond to others: Well, this was a life lesson I learned with God. So the glory goes to God (of course). For there is one verse that God used in my life that really had a huge impact on me. That verse is....

Romans 12:20 KJV
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

When I worked at a certain job once in the past, they did a lot of things there that I had thought were cruel and inappropriate. I mean, things were really bad there. But then a verse came to my mind.

Romans 12:20.

That was my verse in how I was going to get vengeance. That was how I was going to get justice in such a dark place. For I realized that if I want to put out a fire, that water was needed to put it out and not fire. I thought to myself at that time, that if I could do good unto my enemies, then God will bring vengeance upon the wrong that they were doing there. I thought that God is going to repay the injustice that was done in that place for me doing good back towards their bad ways. But in time, I came to realize that I did not want vengeance to fall upon them. I came to realize that I wanted them to truly know Jesus Christ. I wanted them to know what it was like to be changed and different whereby one would not want to hurt anyone. For just as Jesus said to the Father to forgive those who were crucifying him, and just as Steven asked the Lord to not hold their crimes of stoning him against them.... I too desired no harm to come to them in time and I started to see the real point of Romans 12:20. It was not for me to have God get vengeance on them by me putting that verse into practice. It was for me to learn how to love like God and to trust that God will do what is right and good in all matters concerning justice.

So when I do good now. It is not for God to take vengeance. But it is for the purpose to simply love as God loves. But will justice be done? Yes, of course. I leave the justice part in God's hands. I desire no one to be put at harm. But I do know God will punish those who will rebel against Him. God has a plan and justice will be carried out by our Lord perfectly. But God has called me to love and not to hate. So I speak back in love and with kindness (to the best of my ability) knowing that I am not being overcome by evil, but that I am overcoming evil with good.

For are there times I want to say something smart back? You betcha. But I stop myself. I control myself and don't do it. Because if I do, it would put me ont he path of spiralling down to their level of lashing out. I do not want to lash out but I want to love them like Christ loves them.

Another encouraging verse for me is in Matthew 5. For when others say all manner of evil against you.... we are to .... "Rejoice!"

Anyways, thank you so much sister for your love back.
I am so happy to talk with you in the Lord again.

Peace, love, and blessings be unto you in great measure from the Lord Jesus Christ.

With loving kindness,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


....

I know you are right in this, thank you very much for sharing these words of our Lord with me, I definately needed to hear them.

God bless you Jason

 

[notuptome]

You could receive a car tax free as a gift from someone. But that does not mean that such a gift cannot be taken away, though. For if you run red lights, text and drive, drive drunk, and or hit pedestrians.... you are not going to have that free gift for long.

For can you think of any gift today in the real world that you can completely destroy and yet have it remain the same?

I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples.

Also, Ephesians 2:8-9 is in context to....

Ephesians 2:2-3 that says,
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Meaning, you walked in times past according to your former lusts fulfilling the desires of the flesh in your old life. But believers are not that way anymore.

You do not understand the nature of God and the nature of grace.

God is not capricious and does not give and then take away that which He has given.

The gift of salvation is eternal and will not pass away.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DesiredHaven]

Holy crap! This guy even tries to sound like Paul!

God says His name is Holy

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

 

[Jason0047]

Faith + works = salvation.

In other words, "For God so loved the world He gave His own Son, that whoever believes in Him and works, works, works shall not perish but have everlasting life." Gotcha!

Actually, the video supports this equation....

"Faith = Salvation + Works."

Meaning, true faith in the Lord (repentance and acceptance of Jesus) results in salvation; And works is tne natural of a true saving faith.

So it's not that works saves you in and of themselves. It's not that you are doing something to save yourself. One is merely abiding with Christ whereby they are yielding to the fruit or the work of the Lord working within them.. For salvation is a person named Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12). Salvation is Relationship-ism. Salvation is not Antinomianism nor is it Works Salvationism.

 

[Sirk]

God says His name is Holy

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Truth be told, I do see an innocence about Jason. Maybe he had the perfect upbringing, with the white picked fence and Ward cleaver as a father, still a virgin and never has laid eyes on a dirty magazine much less choked his chicken to the latest issue of his dad's playboy but this is 2015... and that all is very hard for me to believe. Unless he was raised by a pack of wild dogs.

 

[Jason0047]

I know you are right in this, thank you very much for sharing these words of our Lord with me, I definately needed to hear them.

God bless you Jason

You are most welcome Desired Haven.

Glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ, for sure.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Holy crap! This guy even tries to sound like Paul!

Thats not a bad thing, if Paul was an example to the flock, immitating through the same Spirit they were of cannot be a bad thing

Phil 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do:
and the God of peace shall be with you.

 

[Jason0047]

 

[Sirk]

So Jason.....when are you gonna give us some substance? You talk a good talk but I wanna see how your faith is "like a rare and precious metal and how you have separated it from the stock".