OSAS doctrine denies the faith
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Naaman's healing was by grace, did reception of that grace depend upon his obedient work? Yes it did. And it is no different when it comes to salvation for God grace is conditionally received by obedient works and not unconditionally received by every single person/Universalism.
Salvation is not received conditionally and then kept unconditionally.
Actually, far from denying Christ OSAS is taking Him at His word. You PSBWK ers see salvation as man's work with a bit of help from God. You agree with the Roman Catholics. We who believe that once Christ has commenced His saving work in us He will not fail, are the ones who have true faith. Our faith is in Christ as the unfailing One..
Yes, grace (God's unmerited favour and love) brings about our salvation. The channel He uses is faith. And as a consequence of that God inworked faith we have confidence that we are constantly surrounded by His gracious unfailing activity.
This is actually talking about a different aspect of faith. It is faith in GOD as the One Who is overall, and Who constantly acts on behalf of those who trust Him.
Yes, whom God chooses He causes to have responsive faith. Thus by responding to Him in faith they are accounted as righteous, they live by His word, and they abide in Him. And they know that He is able to keep them from falling and to present them faultless before Him.
OSAS have faith IN THE ONE WHO IS TRUE. They know that He will never fail them or forsake them. They trust HIM. Are His promises to do this not God's word?
You omitted, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of GOD (freely given, no payment required), and NOT OF OUR OWN DOINGS.
Personally I have never met a Christian who holds that view in 65 years as a Christian. ALL agree that faith is expressed in action. 'By their fruits you will know them. THIS IS A STRAW MAN.
Your first clause is correct with one important ALTERATION. And the reason for the alteration is because it is not OUR salvation but HIS, Salvation is the work of the Saviour, not the work of the sinner. We are in no position to lose it. We have put our case in His hands and He has promised to bring about our salvation. How can it fail? As He Himself said. 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of ALL whom He has given Me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING but should raise them up at the Last Day'. (John 6.39).
You accuse us of leaving wide open the idea that 'one can sin without any consequence of losing salvation', and that is true (salvation is not ours to lose), but what we cannot do is sin without any consequences. If we sin we will experience the chastening hand of God. This will be the proof that we are His.
No not quite. Jude was here talking about people who had misunderstood the message of salvation. They had no desire to be saved from sin. They wanted to be 'saved' in it. To them sin was not an enemy but a lover. They had never been saved. Indeed they did not WANT to be saved from sin. They will be rightly condemned.
Of course. All true Christians produce the obedience that springs from faith, even if it is sometimes at a low ebb. They do want to please God, even though they sometimes find that, 'with the mind I serve the law of God but with the flesh the law of sin.'.
Sometimes they are especially weak and frail and need the Saviour to carry them. Some even wander away and have to be brought back. But that IS THE SHEPHERD'S JOB. He seeks them UNTIL He finds them (LUKE 15.4)
Your theology is slightly wrong. The branches of Israel that were broken off were those who obstinately remained in unbelief, not backsliders. They included most of the Sadducees, the Scribes and the Pharisees.
. A warning to those who had taken shelter in becoming Israelites by 'believing in the Messiah' that they must continue in His goodness. No one doubts that. True faith is permanent faith. Like our churches today the early churches also contained both genuine and nominal Christians. And the warning is to those who arrogantly assumed that because they had been baptised they were safe. If their faith proved not to be genuine they would go the way of the Jews whose faith had not been genuine.
Well it is important to 'go on believing'. No one doubts that. But the OSASer believes that God will enable those who ARE His to go on believing. That is what salvation is all about. God 'working in us to will and do of His good pleasure'. (Phil 2.13). To put it another way, God dragging us back by the scruff of our necks.
If our salvation depended on 'abiding in every God-breathed word' no one would be saved. It is beyond human capability. Our salvation depends on the fact that our shepherd will not allow us to break away and perish, and will not allow any to pluck us from His hand (John 10.27-28). He will keep us abiding using both hook and crook. And if we wander off He will drag us back.
But saying that once Jesus Christ is my Saviour I cannot fall from His hands is confirming Scripture not denying it. How can anyone escape from His hands? How can someone who is anchored within the veil fall from salvation? Will God's anchor fail? You err, not knowing the Scriptures and the power of GOD.
But were you also go wrong is in claiming that salvation is BASED ON faith. IT IS NOT. It is based on the grace of God (His UNMERITED love and favour) and on the activity of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Faith is the channel through which we receive it.
If you mean permanently fall I will agree with you. If someone permanently falls it is evidence that the Saviour is not saving them. For He never fails.
Your problem again is that you embolden faith, I would embolden GRACE. Salvation is through the unmerited love and favour of God and of Jesus Christ acting on us and in us. It is through faith, not because of faith.
To be continued.
Yes, grace (God's unmerited favour and love) brings about our salvation. The channel He uses is faith. And as a consequence of that God inworked faith we have confidence that we are constantly surrounded by His gracious unfailing activity.
This is actually talking about a different aspect of faith. It is faith in GOD as the One Who is overall, and Who constantly acts on behalf of those who trust Him.
Yes, whom God chooses He causes to have responsive faith. Thus by responding to Him in faith they are accounted as righteous, they live by His word, and they abide in Him. And they know that He is able to keep them from falling and to present them faultless before Him.
OSAS have faith IN THE ONE WHO IS TRUE. They know that He will never fail them or forsake them. They trust HIM. Are His promises to do this not God's word?
You omitted, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of GOD (freely given, no payment required), and NOT OF OUR OWN DOINGS.
Personally I have never met a Christian who holds that view in 65 years as a Christian. ALL agree that faith is expressed in action. 'By their fruits you will know them. THIS IS A STRAW MAN.
Your first clause is correct with one important ALTERATION. And the reason for the alteration is because it is not OUR salvation but HIS, Salvation is the work of the Saviour, not the work of the sinner. We are in no position to lose it. We have put our case in His hands and He has promised to bring about our salvation. How can it fail? As He Himself said. 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of ALL whom He has given Me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING but should raise them up at the Last Day'. (John 6.39).
You accuse us of leaving wide open the idea that 'one can sin without any consequence of losing salvation', and that is true (salvation is not ours to lose), but what we cannot do is sin without any consequences. If we sin we will experience the chastening hand of God. This will be the proof that we are His.
No not quite. Jude was here talking about people who had misunderstood the message of salvation. They had no desire to be saved from sin. They wanted to be 'saved' in it. To them sin was not an enemy but a lover. They had never been saved. Indeed they did not WANT to be saved from sin. They will be rightly condemned.
Of course. All true Christians produce the obedience that springs from faith, even if it is sometimes at a low ebb. They do want to please God, even though they sometimes find that, 'with the mind I serve the law of God but with the flesh the law of sin.'.
Sometimes they are especially weak and frail and need the Saviour to carry them. Some even wander away and have to be brought back. But that IS THE SHEPHERD'S JOB. He seeks them UNTIL He finds them (LUKE 15.4)
Your theology is slightly wrong. The branches of Israel that were broken off were those who obstinately remained in unbelief, not backsliders. They included most of the Sadducees, the Scribes and the Pharisees.
. A warning to those who had taken shelter in becoming Israelites by 'believing in the Messiah' that they must continue in His goodness. No one doubts that. True faith is permanent faith. Like our churches today the early churches also contained both genuine and nominal Christians. And the warning is to those who arrogantly assumed that because they had been baptised they were safe. If their faith proved not to be genuine they would go the way of the Jews whose faith had not been genuine.
Well it is important to 'go on believing'. No one doubts that. But the OSASer believes that God will enable those who ARE His to go on believing. That is what salvation is all about. God 'working in us to will and do of His good pleasure'. (Phil 2.13). To put it another way, God dragging us back by the scruff of our necks.
If our salvation depended on 'abiding in every God-breathed word' no one would be saved. It is beyond human capability. Our salvation depends on the fact that our shepherd will not allow us to break away and perish, and will not allow any to pluck us from His hand (John 10.27-28). He will keep us abiding using both hook and crook. And if we wander off He will drag us back.
But saying that once Jesus Christ is my Saviour I cannot fall from His hands is confirming Scripture not denying it. How can anyone escape from His hands? How can someone who is anchored within the veil fall from salvation? Will God's anchor fail? You err, not knowing the Scriptures and the power of GOD.
But were you also go wrong is in claiming that salvation is BASED ON faith. IT IS NOT. It is based on the grace of God (His UNMERITED love and favour) and on the activity of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Faith is the channel through which we receive it.
If you mean permanently fall I will agree with you. If someone permanently falls it is evidence that the Saviour is not saving them. For He never fails.
Your problem again is that you embolden faith, I would embolden GRACE. Salvation is through the unmerited love and favour of God and of Jesus Christ acting on us and in us. It is through faith, not because of faith.
To be continued.
You don't discuss anything.....you apply things not said or taught by people who believe eternal security, your reject verb tenses, definitions of the very inspired words and context to promote your own coined message......maybe if you actually discussed something and were honest with what is said while acknowledging the inspired words and verb tenses you would have a little easier way to go.
J
This is something that seems little grasped around here. These things are, literally, Satanic. These people are compulsive, career liars, set in their false gospel claims, day after day, week after week, trying to poison the well. These are issues of false prophets and doctrines of demons, yet you have a crowd here that seems to be alright with it, even admonish some "make nice" stance with those advocating for Satan. Those who don't see evil perhaps neither really see truth.
Well, I'm not from Rome, or Corinth, or Galatia, or from Thessalonica either. LOL Good Lord what an excuse to ignore Gods words. Wow! LOL
Now, I know this one is addressed to Timothy, BUT it is also good for doctrine and reproof.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Now, I know this one is addressed to Timothy, BUT it is also good for doctrine and reproof.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
J
Nobody has ever defended sin. It's the straw man, what they're really doing is trying to place a hook in people they're not good enough, sow doubt through the back door. It's a stupid farce of an argument, again, nobody ever saying this, a slander in itself of people who've said no such thing. Devil means slanderer, don't forget. Attack the messenger, in a big font of their playbook.
Also, no one is saying that the mentally ill, beggars, those who suffer are not capable of not inheriting the Kingdom of God and or they will not be saved. The mentally ill who are truly damaged on a mental capacity whereby they cannot determine right from wrong are automatically saved. The beggar or those who suffer are more receptive to the gospel than say a rich man and or a person who loves the world still. But you have to realize, that no believer saves themselves. God saves them both in Justification and in Sanctification. A believer merely yields to the work God wants to do within them. For the disciples had marveled at who could be saved after Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter the KIngdom of God. Jesus reply was that with God.... all things are possible. Meaning, it is God who is going to save a person. Not just as a one time thing or event in their life, but as a continual walk with that person.
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Everything I asked you about is truth....if the boot fits wear it........Jason...now I will ask again...why not answer....it may take a while, but I am sure we can go back over numerous threads and cut and past things that prove the questions below....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Pop quiz....Why do you keep misrepresenting the truth and applying things not taught unto the people who believe in the security of the believer?
Pop quiz....Why do you deny your a sinner that sins' under the banner of messing up or slipping up?
Pop quiz....Why do you say you are without sin, but will also say that you are not perfect YET?
Pop quiz...Why do you deny you teach a works based salvation when your gospel relies upon what YOU do or do not do?
Pop quiz....Why do you reject the very definitions of the inspired words, contexts and verb tenses that contradict your view?
Pop quiz...Why do you talk out of both sides of your mouth?
Here...I will post one that fits the last question to start......
Originally Posted by Jason0047 Well, not to drag you into it personally (Because I don't know your life), but for clarity on this point, a believer cannot abide in unrepentant sin and think they are saved. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not a one time event but a continued relationship and walk with the Lord.
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Pop quiz....Why do you deny your a sinner that sins' under the banner of messing up or slipping up?
Pop quiz....Why do you say you are without sin, but will also say that you are not perfect YET?
Pop quiz...Why do you deny you teach a works based salvation when your gospel relies upon what YOU do or do not do?
Pop quiz....Why do you reject the very definitions of the inspired words, contexts and verb tenses that contradict your view?
Pop quiz...Why do you talk out of both sides of your mouth?
Here...I will post one that fits the last question to start......
Originally Posted by Jason0047 Well, not to drag you into it personally (Because I don't know your life), but for clarity on this point, a believer cannot abide in unrepentant sin and think they are saved. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not a one time event but a continued relationship and walk with the Lord.
V
It's nothing short of stupifying that you don't realize you just negated every argument you've ever made against eternal security.
If "no believer saves themselves" then explain how they then have power to keep themselves saved! Not only is that a huge contradiction, it is simply ignorant of biblical truth.
If "no believer saves themselves" then explain how they then have power to keep themselves saved! Not only is that a huge contradiction, it is simply ignorant of biblical truth.
I pointed out your wresting of scriptures...and you continue to do so....
Jude 24 it is not "up to God", the verse does not say it is God's accountability and responsibility to keep the Christian from falling. Quit trying to take YOUR accountability and responsibility and put it upon God.
Jn 10:27,28 one hears and follows of his volition and therefore can quit hearing and following of his own volition. It is not God's accountability and responsibility that one hears and follows or that ones keeps on hearing and following. No context says God has a unconditional obligation to save those that quit hearing and following. Those faithful to God , God will be faithful to them and OSAS has nothing to do with it at all and is not even in the context, therefore you are wanting v27 out of the context to force OSAS into the context.
The church as Ephesus was sealed, but that seal was eventually broken down the road, Revelation 2:1-7.
Again, Rom 8:38,39 says nothing about OSAS you again are forcing it into the context. Paul lists things EXTERNAL to the Christian not the Christian himself who can remove himself from the love of God. You make passages as Jude 21 pointless and baseless by wresting of Rom 8:38,39.
It's nothing short of stupifying that you don't realize you just negated every argument you've ever made against eternal security.
If "no believer saves themselves" then explain how they then have power to keep themselves saved! Not only is that a huge contradiction, it is simply ignorant of biblical truth.
If "no believer saves themselves" then explain how they then have power to keep themselves saved! Not only is that a huge contradiction, it is simply ignorant of biblical truth.