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Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
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Evidently you failed to read and study Romans chapter 4.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom 4:5)
I have here in my study 263 commentaries on Paul’s Epistle to the Romans—including EVERY commentary on the Greek text of Romans that has been published in the English language. Most of them are first edition copies, and some of them are VERY rare! And yes, I have read and studied all 263 of them.

When Paul wrote of works, he was ALWAYS writing of “works of the Law” (ἔργων νόμου ), and circumcision in particular. (He used the word “circumcision”—in our English translations—30 times in 26 verses, and the word “circumcised” 11 times in 9 verses). Indeed, Paul (and only Paul) used the expression ἔργων νόμου eight times:

Romans 3:20
Romans 3:28
Galatians 2:16 (three times)
Galatians 3:2
Galatians 3:5
Galatians 3:10

So what did James have in mind?
He had in mind the good works which Jesus expressly taught result in eternal life (Matt. 16:27, 25:34-46; Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37; John 5:28-29). Have you read the gospels?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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This is a rather harsh accusation against a man who has successfully pioneered and served as the senior pastor of staunchly evangelical, theologically conservative churches—one of which was in the red-light district of a large port city that was internationally known for its grossly sinful debauchery! Indeed, the spiritual needs of the people were so great that we never closed our churches doors to them before midnight (seven days a week—including all holidays), and had people waiting in line for spiritual counseling as late as 2:30 in morning. I myself, as the senior pastor, went back to my study every night at midnight and spent the next two hours communing with God. My education, intellect, and knowledge of the Scriptures may be far superior to yours, but that does not at all mean that I rely any less upon the Holy Spirit and His wisdom than does a man lacking the ability to read the Scriptures in the languages in which God gave them to us.
This is all about YOU and not about Christ which leads me to believe that you are motivated by PRIDE. 1 Corinthians 1:19 - For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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If this were true, I believe that Jesus would have known about it, but the Scriptures clearly reveal that He did not!
Did Jesus teach salvation by works? Absolutely not. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26).

As for Ephesians 2:8-10,

One of the first Bible passages that I memorized as a young Christian was Ephesians 2:8-9 in the King James Version,

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When Paul wrote of “works” that he contrasted with grace and faith, he was always referring to the works of the Law, that is, the Old Testament covenant of Law as opposed to the New Testament covenant of grace:
I often hear Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists try to "get around" Ephesians 2:8,9 by teaching that Paul limited "works" to merely specific works of the law, but not works in general, then erroneously teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. In Titus 3:5, Paul goes on to say that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity. So it's not merely a specific list of works of the law, as in merely the ceremonial aspect of the law, but works in general as we see above.

Gal. 2:16. nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The Law includes everything, including the 10 Commandments and is not limited to ceremonial works.

Gal. 3:10. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
Exactly! Either we perfectly obey the Law and are justified by the Law (impossible!) or else we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and are justified by faith (Romans 3:22-28; 5:1). There is no middle ground.

Rom. 2:4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5. but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6. who will render to every man according to his works: (ASV)
This does not mean that we merit eternal life by our works. After reading post #237, it appears that you are over confident about your works, along with your education and intellect. :unsure:

If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
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Rom. 3:27. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
The law of faith, not faith and works.

Therefore, the “works” that he wrote of in Eph. 2:9 were not the “good works” that Jesus taught one must perform to be justified and saved (Matt. 16:27, 25:34-46; Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37; John 5:28-29) or the good works that James taught one must perform to be justified and saved (James 2:14-26) or the good works that we read of in the faith chapter in the New Testament (Heb. 11), but works of the Law and circumcision in particular. (continued in the following post) FALSE. There is no list of works that Jesus taught one must perform to be justified and saved. You are misinterpreting (Matt. 16:27, 25:34-46; Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37; John 5:28-29; James 2:14-26) and again, there is a reason for that. You are confusing DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture and it's all because you teach salvation by works, which is the only thing that the natural man can understand.

Matthew 16:27 says "reward" each according to his works, not save each according to his works. Also see 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, notice work endures, receive a reward, works burned, suffer loss of reward, but he shall be saved.

After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. All Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because Christ imputed His righteousness to them (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of "faith by which one receives eternal life."

Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. You still have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

In regards to the rich young man in Mark 10:17-30, Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of keeping the first commandment under the law (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus for salvation.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said. Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

The parable of the good samaritan is summed up in vss 36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.” We show our faith by our works, but we are not saved by works.

In regards to John 5:28-29, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we already saw in Romans 2:6-10. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

*Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

*Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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James, in his epistle, approached the matter from a very different perspective; that is, he vigorously taught that works are essential for ones justification and salvation, but he was not writing of circumcision or any other work of the Law, but exclusively the good works that Jesus commands us to perform.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do which are completely "detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law, so the saved by "these" works (good works) but not saved by "those" works (works of the law) argument is bogus.

When we carefully read Eph. 2:8-9 in the context of 8-16 (see below), we see (especially in verse 11, but also in the context), that Paul is explaining to the Christians in Ephesus that a Gentile could become a Christian without keeping the Law, specifically without being circumcised.

When Eph. 2:8-9 is read apart from both the literary and historical context in which it was originally written, it can appear to teach precisely the opposite of what Jesus and James taught—a doctrine that was entirely foreign to the teaching of Paul and a doctrine that has nothing at all to do with Paul’s goal and objective of explaining to both the Jews and Gentiles the mystery that a Gentile could become a Christian without keeping the Law, specifically without being circumcised. (Paul used the word “circumcision”—in our English translations—30 times in 26 verses, and the word “circumcised” 11 times in 9 verses).
Paul often speaks of "works of the law," since that was the particular kinds of works that members of his audience were prone to perform, being Jewish (Acts 15:5; Romans 3; Galatians 3). However, churches also include Gentiles and Paul has used the word "works" without limiting it only to specific works (like circumcision) under the law of Moses that the Jews were hung up on. In Titus 3:5 he affirmed that it is "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.." Likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity. So, it is not just "specific works of the law" of Moses but ANY "works" or "works of righteousness" which we have done that are the insufficient means of our salvation.

We read in the New Testament that both the grace by which we are saved and the faith through which we are saved are gifts from God, but in order to be saved, we must allow both the grace and the faith to work in our lives, and that includes performing the works that Jesus and His brother James taught we must perform to be justified and saved.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works (as you suppose). His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). - see post #808 for a more thorough explanation.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...saved-always-saved.136509/page-41#post3374477

So how many works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Jesus save you? It's not that we must perform works in order to become saved but that we will perform works if we truly are saved. We show our faith by our works. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. You put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Really and how did the people to whom Jesus was speaking know the Gospel message considering He had not even gone to the cross?

Do you think they had any idea of the what Jesus was going to do?

Scripture is understood in historical context first rather than made to fit our preconceived or indoctrinated mindset.

Again, the parable of the sower is all about salvation.


Your attempt to explain it away is noted.


All anyone has to do is read what Jesus said.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

  • then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



The Gospel of the kingdom is what Jesus and His Apostles preached, before His crucifixion and after.


From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17


again


The Gospel Jesus sent Paul to preach - Words of Christ in red.



15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:15-20


The Gospel of the Kingdom: Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.


  • Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

  • The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.



Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29





JPT
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Well this is a change?
Notice, he did not say anything about not being able to lose salvation:
That's true from the observers point of view, in the sense that we must remain faithful until the end to be saved. But salvation is achieved by Christ and the Holy Spirit through us. We follow Christ by using our gift of faith and the Holy Spirit gives us the strength to endure the race to the end.

Nobody could remain faithful to the end if we were left to run the race using our own wisdom and faith, we rely on God 100% for our salvation. He does the work from start to finish, we just follow His lead using the gift of faith which He gave us.
I agree with everything he said......and I can stop doing everything he said. I can stop remaining faithful until the end to be saved. I can stop following Christ. I can reject the strength of the Holy Spirit to endure the race to the end. I can stop relying on God for my salvation. I can stop following his lead. But you say I can't, right?
 
Oct 31, 2015
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1 John 3:3
King James Version(KJV)

3.)And every man that hath this hope In him , purifieth himself even as he Is pure.

That is what we are commanded to do, but not everyone will do this.


Here are some more things John commands us to do -


4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15



7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7



  • Here is how we abide in Him -


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20



Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14





JPT
 
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Where did Jesus say he only saves those who are not trying to save themselves? I keep reading that we are to actively participate in our salvation by striving to enter through the narrow gate.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16
Grace, grace is unearned, trying to save yourself means you are trying to earn it, which means it is not of grace,
 
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That teaching that insists we can lose our salvation is predicated on the idea we do something first to save ourselves. And as such we are then able to damn ourselves right back the way from whence we came. Putting then our will as stronger than God's.
I am more and more loving the site I found not long ago. Studylight. They have so many more versions than I'm use to finding at other sites. :)
Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 8:26 - NAS – In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.27.and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28.And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30.and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31.What then shall we say to these things If God is for us, who is against us?




John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "
Yes, it is emphasized in the idea that God calls the Galatians Christian in chapter 3 "foolish" and not fools as those who say there is no God in their heart.

Psalm 14:1King James Version The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Foolish, is denying Christ in unbelief (no faith)when we do sin. There if we receiving the hearing of the faith of Christ as a work he beginnings in we are given the confidence (Philippians 1:6) that he will finish it to the end.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gods faith) Gal 3: 1-6
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
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Actually the scriptures are clear and is not called backsliding.




  • It's the willful act of renouncing, departing or disconnecting from Christ because of persecution.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Fall away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi


  1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
    1. to excite to revolt
  2. to stand off, to stand aloof
    1. to go away, to depart from anyone
    2. to desert, withdraw from one
    3. to fall away, become faithless
    4. to shun, flee from
    5. to cease to vex one
    6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
    7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from





20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21


Stumbles - Strong's G4624 - skandalizō

to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend

  1. to entice to sin
  2. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
    1. to cause to fall away
    2. to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
    3. to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
  3. since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
    1. to cause one displeasure at a thing
    2. to make indignant
    3. to be displeased, indignant




This is the context of the book of Hebrews, in which the context for Hebrews 6 & 10 find their origins in chapter three.


The unbelieving Jews would persecute believers in order to cause them to renounce Christ as a false prophet, to get them to turn away from Him. No longer following Him. In many cases persuading these believers to turn back to Judaism, in which they no longer had a sacrifice for sin, having put Jesus to an open shame, after having received the Holy Spirit.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


  • in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from [Strong's G868] the living God;

Same greek word and same context as Luke 8:13


Fall away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi


  1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
    1. to excite to revolt
  2. to stand off, to stand aloof
    1. to go away, to depart from anyone
    2. to desert, withdraw from one
    3. to fall away, become faithless
    4. to shun, flee from
    5. to cease to vex one
    6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
    7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from




JPT
It matters not what compilation of out of context "proofs" someone will bring to this type of discussion.
We do not work to keep our salvation arrived at by the sacrifice of Christ and the grace of God. And we do not then risk working to lose what was a gift of God in the first place.

These type arguments arise I suspect in most Christian communities. They're pursued by that which insists Christians are not truly saved for eternity and Christ then failed on the cross. These arguments never consider what they're imparting must be done by God's will in order for their specious argument against God's grace to be true.

I posted this on the site before and I thank God I found it long ago and saved the information. I pray any sister or brother here who wants a Biblical resource to refute the argument that the Christian is not eternally secure save it to their own computer. It is a very short video that makes very succinct Biblical points that utterly refute anyone's argument that eternal salvation is not eternal. Such people are hoping to get you to believe that our will is stronger than God's foreknowledge as to who would receive his call and irrevocable , see that word? Irrevocable, meaning unrepentant of, gift of salvation. That means, God doesn't take it back.
We will never convince those who think he will that they're wrong. But if we keep arguing with them that we know we're saved for eternity, they feel inspired to say, not so! And if they profess the name of Christ in the course of that pursuit, stop! And think.
Who are they really talking to?
You? Who know God loves you and keeps you in his grace forever because as Jesus said, he called you by the name he knew before the creation of the world.
Or themselves? Who know they really don't take the Gospel seriously. That's why they insist in their argument that it really doesn't mean anything.





For a Christian to lose their salvation God would have to:

*Erase the Mark (John 13- And verse 35.)

*Withdraw the Holy Spirit within them

* Cancel the Deposit (Ephesians 1:13-14 & 2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

*Break His promise (Acts 2:38-39 & http://www.openbible.info/topics/assurance_of_salvation)


*Revoke the Guarantee (James 1:17 & 2 Corinthians 1:22)

*Keep the Inheritance (Ephesians 1:11-14)

*Forego the praise (Hebrews 13:15)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
The parable of the Sower is all about salvation.

Denying what the scripture so plainly says, only exposes your darkened philosophy which can not grasp the simple and plain truth that Jesus taught.


Denying that Jesus taught the principle of receiving salvation by believing the Gospel is Heresy.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

The word or message that the Sower sows is the Gospel message, the only message which brings salvation.

Only those who believe the Gospel message will be saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.



JPT

The eternal life (Gospel of grace) is not in view at all in this parable.

Reason: The gospel of grace/being born again requires death to self first then a new life in Christ can start. The seed does not die before it germinates.

The parable has more to do with the rejection of the new kingdom of God by Israel and the new kingdom of the church age and bearing fruit within the new church age.

Fruit bearing with respect to the kingdom is completely in view this is why Jesus choose the seed to teach this truth, and even yet His disciples were not clear on what He was teaching and He had to expound further.

This is only heretical to those who adhere to the very, very heretical doctrine that a born again believer can lose their salvation.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
If this were true, I believe that Jesus would have known about it, but the Scriptures clearly reveal that He did not!

As for Ephesians 2:8-10,

One of the first Bible passages that I memorized as a young Christian was Ephesians 2:8-9 in the King James Version,

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I heard and read this passage being quoted very many times and frequently quoted it myself when witnessing to non-Christians. I thought that I understood it just fine until I began studying the Apostle Paul, his missionary journeys, the messages that he preached, and his epistles.* Then I became more and more familiar with Paul and his goals and objectives as the Apostle to the Gentiles and the obstacles that he encountered and dealt with.

Circumcision was a very important part of the Old Testament covenant of Law that in the Jewish mind separated Jews from Gentiles. The earliest Christians were all Jews and Christianity was understood by them to be a sect of Judaism. Therefore it was very difficult for them to accept the idea that an uncircumcised Gentile could be a Christian no matter how much he believed in Jesus. Explaining this mystery to both the Jews and Gentiles was one of Paul’s major goals and objectives, and hence a major theme in his Epistles to the Romans, the Galatians, and the Ephesians.

When Paul wrote of “works” that he contrasted with grace and faith, he was always referring to the works of the Law, that is, the Old Testament covenant of Law as opposed to the New Testament covenant of grace:

Gal. 2:16. nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal. 3:2. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3. Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4. Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5. So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Gal. 3:9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Rom. 2:4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5. but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6. who will render to every man according to his works: (ASV)

Rom. 3:27. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

And compare the following:

Gal. 2:21. “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Gal. 5:4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal. 5:11. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
Gal. 6:12. Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14. But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Rom. 9:30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33. just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


Therefore, the “works” that he wrote of in Eph. 2:9 were not the “good works” that Jesus taught one must perform to be justified and saved (Matt. 16:27, 25:34-46; Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37; John 5:28-29) or the good works that James taught one must perform to be justified and saved (James 2:14-26) or the good works that we read of in the faith chapter in the New Testament (Heb. 11), but works of the Law and circumcision in particular. (continued in the following post)

James, in his epistle, approached the matter from a very different perspective; that is, he vigorously taught that works are essential for ones justification and salvation, but he was not writing of circumcision or any other work of the Law, but exclusively the good works that Jesus commands us to perform.

When we carefully read Eph. 2:8-9 in the context of 8-16 (see below), we see (especially in verse 11, but also in the context), that Paul is explaining to the Christians in Ephesus that a Gentile could become a Christian without keeping the Law, specifically without being circumcised.

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12. remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15. by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16. and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

When Eph. 2:8-9 is read apart from both the literary and historical context in which it was originally written, it can appear to teach precisely the opposite of what Jesus and James taught—a doctrine that was entirely foreign to the teaching of Paul and a doctrine that has nothing at all to do with Paul’s goal and objective of explaining to both the Jews and Gentiles the mystery that a Gentile could become a Christian without keeping the Law, specifically without being circumcised. (Paul used the word “circumcision”—in our English translations—30 times in 26 verses, and the word “circumcised” 11 times in 9 verses).

We read in the New Testament that both the grace by which we are saved and the faith through which we are saved are gifts from God, but in order to be saved, we must allow both the grace and the faith to work in our lives, and that includes performing the works that Jesus and His brother James taught we must perform to be justified and saved.

(All Scripture quotations are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)

One simple question no one is ever able to answer, "how much/many good works are required to gain eternal life?"

Btw the gift is eternal life not saving faith
 

OstrichSmiling

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Jun 17, 2018
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The eternal life (Gospel of grace) is not in view at all in this parable.

Reason: The gospel of grace/being born again requires death to self first then a new life in Christ can start. The seed does not die before it germinates.

The parable has more to do with the rejection of the new kingdom of God by Israel and the new kingdom of the church age and bearing fruit within the new church age.

Fruit bearing with respect to the kingdom is completely in view this is why Jesus choose the seed to teach this truth, and even yet His disciples were not clear on what He was teaching and He had to expound further.

This is only heretical to those who adhere to the very, very heretical doctrine that a born again believer can lose their salvation.
Amen!:)

Bible Study Tools: Parable of the Sower
"...
Jesus used this parable to explain to his followers and the disciples how there are different responses to the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. The sower in the parable is Jesus and the seed is the word of God (both Jesus's spoken word and today the Bible). The hard ground represents someone with a hardened heart full of sin that hears the word of God but does not accept it. Satan is able to keep this person from growing at all. The stony ground is someone who shows interest and awareness in the Gospel, yet his heart isn't fully convicted so that when trouble comes his faith is not strong enough to stand. The thorny ground is a person who receives the Gospel but who has many other idols and distractions in life - worries, riches, and lusts, which take over his mind and heart and he cannot grow in the truth of God's Word. The good soil is someone who has heard and received the Word of God and allows it to take root and grow within his life. This person represents true salvation that bears good fruit.

Jesus spoke the Parable of the Sower to teach how important the state of our heart is to receiving the Gospel and how our salvation is proved by our choices and actions after hearing the Gospel. ..." https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-stories/parable-of-the-sower.html
 

OstrichSmiling

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Jun 17, 2018
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mailmandan said:
Good works are the consequence of salvation and not the other way around (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Reply:
If this were true, I believe that Jesus would have known about it, but the Scriptures clearly reveal that He did not!..
That is not at all true. The work we do in the name of God is a display of his saving grace, love, and salvation at work, in our lives. Our good works are evidence of salvation. Not a means to attain salvation. Jesus spoke often of this.
And how would he not have? He was born to die on the cross so as to bring the covenantal promise to eternal life for all who believe.
John 15:8–11
8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you,that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.



[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
U

UnderGrace

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Notice, he did not say anything about not being able to lose salvation:

I agree with everything he said......and I can stop doing everything he said. I can stop remaining faithful until the end to be saved. I can stop following Christ. I can reject the strength of the Holy Spirit to endure the race to the end. I can stop relying on God for my salvation. I can stop following his lead. But you say I can't, right?
This is my response to both of your responses to me Ralphie.

Since you have now made ongoing belief in the efficacy of the sacrifice as your necessity for gaining eternal life, rather than the grace of God and the gift of salvation...…….. let me ask you this what would happen to someone who continues to believe in the efficacy of the sacrifice as a payment for sin...…... yet chooses to sin since they know the sin debt is paid and they continue to believe it is paid?

It is all about ongoing belief in your view right?
 

Sagart

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May 7, 2017
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This is all about YOU and not about Christ which leads me to believe that you are motivated by PRIDE. 1 Corinthians 1:19 - For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
It is a horrible thing when a man who professes to be a Christian makes it necessary for a Christian to toot his own horn, but some “evil workers” forced Paul to do that (Phil. 3:5-6), and I found myself to be in a very similar situation. “But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.” (Phil. 3:7)

Furthermore, people who worship ignorance in the name of spiritually bring unspeakable shame to the Church and to the Christ who gave Himself for her.
 

OstrichSmiling

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Jun 17, 2018
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This is my response to both of your responses to me Ralphie.

Since you have now made ongoing belief in the efficacy of the sacrifice as your necessity for gaining eternal life, rather than the grace of God and the gift of salvation...…….. let me ask you this what would happen to someone who continues to believe in the efficacy of the sacrifice as a payment for sin...…... yet chooses to sin since they know the sin debt is paid and they continue to believe it is paid?

It is all about ongoing belief in your view right?
It very well could be so.
What did our Lord say? And warn against?
It's fascinating to witness prophecy still coming true to this day.
Acts 20:30
"Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them. "
 
Sep 4, 2012
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This is my response to both of your responses to me Ralphie.

Since you have now made ongoing belief in the efficacy of the sacrifice as your necessity for gaining eternal life, rather than the grace of God and the gift of salvation...…….. let me ask you this what would happen to someone who continues to believe in the efficacy of the sacrifice as a payment for sin...…... yet chooses to sin since they know the sin debt is paid and they continue to believe it is paid?

It is all about ongoing belief in your view right?
That would be a faith that cannot save. Obedient faith saves, not mere belief.