Paul was not qualified to be an apostle

[JaumeJ]

Hello, LovePink. According to the meaning of the word, apostle, Paul may be considered an apostle.

He is not one of the Twelve, but he is, according to accounts, sent out.

Although when I first believed I had a difficult time with his contributions to the writings, going back to the teachings of Jesus would always make all smooth and fine about Paul.

As Paul writes, the only thing to keep in mind is Christ crucified and the Gospel He lived and died to give to all who will accept it. In this we are saved for Jesus is Salvation.

 

[BananaPie]

Beliefs will do strange things to people.

...so will futility.

 

[4enlightment]

Hello, LovePink. According to the meaning of the word, apostle, Paul may be considered an apostle.

He is not one of the Twelve, but he is, according to accounts, sent out.

Although when I first believed I had a difficult time with his contributions to the writings, going back to the teachings of Jesus would always make all smooth and fine about Paul.

As Paul writes, the only thing to keep in mind is Christ crucified and the Gospel He lived and died to give to all who will accept it. In this we are saved for Jesus is Salvation.

Mark 9:38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

Matthew 10:41
Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.

Revelation 11:18The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Matthew 12:18“Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Matthew 20:26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

Luke 1:2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses andservants of the word.

Luke 7:8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

Luke 15:19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’

John 10:13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

Mark 12:40They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”

Matthew 10:42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

John 13:6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”
8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”
Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

Matthew 23:12
For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Matthew 20:28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

 

[reject-tech]

Shouldn't the "qualifications" to be an apostle or any other "title", be between the person and God, ultimately indeterminable by other people?

We can say he was or wasn't, but he did whatever he did for whatever reasons he understood, and reportedly, he did miracles and wrote seven letters to seven churches just like John who was presumably an apostle? From the surface, it appears to me that Paul was an apostle, and whether he needed that title or not does not change the effect that he has already had.

Paul focused on teaching the manifestation of brotherly love, but unfortunately his writings have been used to argue points of law. This is how he has not "baptized" anyone except a few. And he is thankful, because that mechanism prevents the impure heart from receiving the commission he teaches.

 

[danschance]

// There were more than 12 apostles.//
I never even said Paul wasn't an apostle for that matter. Why do you think we read of the 12 apostles, even 11 but never a number 14, 19, 21? Honest question, then maybe we can see why Paul was disqualified to replace Judas, instead of trying so hard not to see it.

23So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. Acts 1:23-28

The above scripture clearly identifies Mattias as being the replacement for Judas--not Paul.

Your thread seems to imply that Paul was not qualified to be an apostle. Now you mention he is not qualified to be an apostle.

Yet you have not stated why you think this. For whatever reason, you seem to prefer to toss out hints about why Paul is not qualified as an Apostle but never any reasons why you think that. The few ancillary facts you have stated have been wrong like Paul was the replacement of Judas.

 

[danschance]

Folks wake up. The OP started with a provocative title, but has added absolutely nothing but confusion to this discussion. It appears that your responses are simply providing her entertainment.

My sentiments precisely. Perhaps it is better to be evasive than to offer half baked proof.

 

[Praus]

If you want to define the term so that it includes Paul, well that is fine: Then Benny Hinn is an apostle, Praus is an apostle, Marilyn Manson is an apostle, etc….

Sigh. I'm not an apostle.

Calling a high priest in the church of satan an apostle in the manner of Paul?

The spirit whispering into your ear is pretty cheeky.

Satanism: An interview with Church of Satan High Priest Peter Gilmore - Wikinews, the free news source

DS: Marilyn Manson is a member?
PG: Yes, he’s a member who has been given an honorary priesthood.

 

[danschance]

Okay, I cannot keep up w/the posts, so sue me, eat popcorn, put on a tinfoil hat and call it.

I really wonder who is truly reading my words in my posts, because some of your questions are giving me the impression this is not happening. To the guy asking about the new man, I'm just going to call reading comprehension problem much, I specifically stated from the beginning we do not read about the new man outside of Paul's epistles, so why would I be saying whatever that was you posted on the last page about the 11 something or whatever.

You really don't understand the new man? It's who we are, in Christ, do you know our purpose? Our ministry?

New man occurs three times in the NT in a KJV bible.

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: s, bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]... by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create
in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, ... Eph. 2:15[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Eph. 5:15

... and to put on the new man who has been created in God's image--
in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth. ... Eph. 4:24

... and have been clothed with the new man that is being renewed in knowledge
according to the image of the one who created it. ... Col, 3:10

Glad this debate is over.

 

[reject-tech]

For what it's worth, I'd also like to point out that throughout the bible, I find several references to a certain effect that sometimes things come in groups of 12, but when that number reflects a count that is immature, a 13th is waited on.

I see this in the harvest timing, the 1 year and 1 month citations, the 390 and 391 counts, and the addition of Paul.
This is also how it was determined whether a girl was ready for the consummation of marriage.
If she was 12 and mature, she could marry. (note that in older days, a female this age would be well versed in responsibility, unlike our modern young ladies) Otherwise, she must wait up to 1 more year for maturity or the end of that year to pass, whichever came first (betrothal). That's mostly from non-canon sources, but the Esther story alludes to it in that king Ahasuerus was in the habit of making them wait an extra year regardless.

Since the gentiles had not been reached with the 12, there is certainly an established pattern and genuine cause for the addition of a 13th apostle, be it Paul or other.

 

[maxwel]

So Paul was not qualified to be an apostle...

wow, somebody should have mentioned that to God.

: )

 

[danschance]

Shouldn't the "qualifications" to be an apostle or any other "title", be between the person and God, ultimately indeterminable by other people?

We can say he was or wasn't, but he did whatever he did for whatever reasons he understood, and reportedly, he did miracles and wrote seven letters to seven churches just like John who was presumably an apostle? From the surface, it appears to me that Paul was an apostle, and whether he needed that title or not does not change the effect that he has already had.

Paul focused on teaching the manifestation of brotherly love, but unfortunately his writings have been used to argue points of law. This is how he has not "baptized" anyone except a few. And he is thankful, because that mechanism prevents the impure heart from receiving the commission he teaches.

I agree that Paul was clearly an apostle or we are in trouble for accepting his epistles as scripture.

An apostle is called by God. They seem to be associated with signs and wonders. They are eyewitnesses of Christ or in Paul's case he saw Christ as a bright light and clearly heard His voice.

 

[LovePink]

if Paul was not qualified...he slipped in there somehow.
then...he deceived Luke, who recorded Acts.
so that means Luke (The Gospel) is unreliable.
uh......oh. maybe the Bib.......

Good lord, try addressing the verses that qualify an apostle selection for those who were following Christ in His entire earthly ministry, as well as witnessing the risen Lord. No one wants to really even address them Matt 19:27-28, Lk 22:28-30, Jhn 15:27, Acts 1:20-25. If we can rightly handle these verses, that would be refreshing. Sorry if this is outside of what you have ever considered, get past the title line for a minute and appreciate the interesting things written for our admonition & learning.

 

[Ariel82]

I do not know her or have spoken to her, but I have watched you people abuse her, repeatedly. She phrased her OP awkwardly she was descended upon cruelly.

And now you have made her feel awkward.

grouping others as "you people" is offensive.

most people have recognized that her OP is worded unclearly. In it she calls Paul an apostle, so it leads one to think that she believes Paul IS an apostle while the Title makes one think she does NOT believe Paul an apostle. Which is why I for one am still waiting for her to clarify her statements.

you however, clearly reject Paul and want to teach your own brand of "true" religion.

Not' really into buying snake oil so I'll bid you adieu now and go back to trying to figure out what the OP believes.

she actually sounds like she might be worth conversing with.

 

[Ariel82]

Good lord, try addressing the verses that qualify an apostle selection for those who were following Christ in His entire earthly ministry, as well as witnessing the risen Lord. No one wants to really even address them Matt 19:27-28, Lk 22:28-30, Jhn 15:27, Acts 1:20-25. If we can rightly handle these verses, that would be refreshing. Sorry if this is outside of what you have ever considered, get past the title line for a minute and appreciate the interesting things written for our admonition & learning.

.... what are you trying to say with these verses?

[h=3]Matthew 19:27-28[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)


[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


[h=3]Luke 22:28-30[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)


[SUP]28 [/SUP]“But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, [SUP]30 [/SUP]that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”


[h=3]John 15:27[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

[h=3]Acts 1:20-25[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)


[SUP]20 [/SUP]“For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;[SUP][a][/SUP]

and,
‘Let[SUP][b][/SUP] another take his office.’[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, [SUP]22 [/SUP]beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen [SUP]25 [/SUP]to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

 

[Ariel82]

This is a truth plainly set forth in Scripture by a few verses. What were the requirements for an apostle of Jesus' earthly ministry (Rm 15:8), according to Scripture, Christ and the Holy Spirit?

So, we should see & understand, God in keeping with His character (Holy, just, righteous & perfect in all His ways), did what when He raised up, converted and separated Saul unto Himself? (Rm 1:1, Gal 1:15)

I want to include a verse, part of the apostle Paul's commission statement, if you will, for consideration in the fact, if something is different- it is not the same.

[h=3]Romans 1[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)


1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God [SUP]2 [/SUP]which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, [SUP]3 [/SUP]concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, [SUP]6 [/SUP]among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;


[h=3]Galatians 1[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),



See from the OP quoting of these verses, it seems that she might believe that Paul is an apostle but would say he was a different type of apostle than the original 12 and had a different type of commission.

If so I would state that there is the same commission, Same Gospel but the only difference is the audience. However I would also point out that Peter preached to Gentiles as well when God called him to.

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, what do you mean by saying Apostle Paul was not qualified to be an Apostle?

 

[reject-tech]

No one wants to really even address them Matt 19:27-28, Lk 22:28-30, Jhn 15:27, Acts 1:20-25. If we can rightly handle these verses, that would be refreshing.

These, and many other passages are directed to a physical 12 for illustration purposes, of what is being directed to anyone who follows Jesus. According to these verses, if they only applied to the physical 12, you and I are excluded from the possibility of following Jesus. However, we both hope that isn't true right? If you follow, you must read as though you are the entirety of the twelve disciples, and sons of Israel, even Judas (Judah) who both scapegoat self accountability for betrayal of a chosen son and repent. Scapegoating of accountability must be removed from the servant.

"And Jesus said unto them (anyone who hears), Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me (anyone who follows), in the regeneration when the Son of man (a term that applies to more than one person) shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye (being "sons of men") also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

"Twelve" is more to get into than I can at the moment, but the same throne seating is presented differently in other scripture.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."


And genuine brotherly love, not scholarship or rehearsed works, opens the door.

 

[Elin]

Some Hebrew Roots ministries go beyond mere suggestion that Christians should "try out" various religious practices and customs of the Jews, and actually teach that the only way to be authentic disciples of Jesus—whom they would refer to by the name they believe He would have used in the first century, something close to "Yahshuah"—is to become Jewish believers in Messiah. This would include adoption of most orthodox Jewish practices such as wearing prayer shawls for worship, wearing blue tassels on the bottoms of a special garment worn at all times, using the traditional Jewish "blessings" throughout the day, and, for some males, even undergoing circumcision if necessary. All of these things are adopted in order to be more "spiritual" and to be more acceptable to God.

It is the position of this website that the approach of this type of ministry is completely distracting from the simplicity that is in Christ, and leads away from true spiritual faith and practice rather than toward it.

There is one final type of Hebrew Roots ministry which has begun to develop out of the last type mentioned above. This ministry poses as one which offers to help Christians explore the Hebrew roots of Jesus and the Hebrew roots of the New Testament Faith. But under this benign surface its goal is to totally undermine the faith of believers in both Jesus and the New Testament. One type of this branch of the Hebrew Roots movement downplays the role of Jesus in salvation, implying strongly that He was just a good Jewish Rabbi of the first century rather than the unique Son of God. And they teach that the New Testament, while containing some inspirational material, is unreliable as the written Word of God. But beyond this branch is one even more radical, which attempts to draw Christians to such conclusions that:

The New Testament was a forgery of the Roman Catholic Church;

The Apostle Paul sought to undermine the teachings of Jesus, and created a false religion;

Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist at all—or, even worse, represents not the Son of God but Satan the Devil himself.


It is the position of this website that both of the approaches described in point 5 are not just distracting to Christians, but are in fact Anti-Christ.

Field Guide: Hebrew Roots

I'm amazed that this has been going on since the time of Christ.

But yet, I'm not, because it's the same enemy of Christ at work in those who do not believe the NT.

If that doesn't prove the revelation of the Bible regarding the war going on in the heavenlies (Eph 6:12), I would like to know what does.

 

[Elin]

One very clear aim of the Hebrew Roots movement is to drag you away from Mount Calvary and the finished work at the cross of Christ, and to keeping dragging you back before the cross, all the way back to Mount Sinai and place the yoke of the Law, (what they love to call the “Torah”), around your neck after Christ has freed you from it.

Here is Mark Blitz quoted directly from his website:

“My goal is not to convert Jews to Christianity but to bring non-Jews to a better understanding of YHVH through a better understanding of Torah. I think most Christians do not know YHVH as He really is but know Him as they have tried to create Him in their image rather than understanding they were created in His image. Many Christians believe they have a relationship with YHVH but they don’t. The time is coming when the Jewish people will recognize the role Yeshua played and they will then fulfill their mission in taking Torah to the nations. They will straighten out the Christians theology in what Yeshua was really saying. There will be Christians who will be saying what can these Jews know about Yeshua when in actuality you will have the correct understanding. In Christianity as you probably know there will be an antichrist and false prophet who deceive the world.”

THE HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT – ANOTHER FALSE GOSPEL | Unsealed Prophecy


blah blah blah.
like, do we not recognize this by now?

...

it's actually extremely serious - i've been watching this progress for a long time.
there are very few testimonies of people who manage to come out of it.
i believe it ends in a judgment by God at some point.

Glad you're on the wall!

 

[Elin]

I believe things are getting mixed up. There was a physical circumcision and a spiritual one. You must know which one they are speaking of in the scriptures. The Lord does not care about the flesh. No flesh will enter the kingdom. Look what he did to Jesus's flesh. The circumcision of the heart is what matters.

You misunderstand Paul's use of flesh and blood. It means the same as the natural man.

And they both mean the weak, sinful, corrupt physical natural body,
as opposed to the powerful, sinless, incorruptible physical spiritual body of the resurrection.

The corruptible physical natural (unregenerate) man/body (flesh and blood) does not inherit the incorruptible kingdom of God.

He must be transformed at the resurrection to the incorruptible physical spiritual man/body
to inherit the incorruptible kingdom of God.