Paul's Conversion

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
Acts 2:5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Yes, both were necessary as evidenced in scripture: (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16), and Paul's epistles (Rom 6:3-5, 1 Cor 1:15-16, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, Eph 4:4-5, Col 2:12, Titus 3:5-6, Heb 4:1-2)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
If water washes sin away, then why did Jesus have to die on the Cross shedding blood?

Think about that.
Jesus' death paid the penalty for the sin of all of mankind. Without Jesus' sacrifice there would be no way for anyone's personal sins to be washed away. God gave instructions requiring those who believed in Jesus' sacrifice to obey. One of the requirements He gave was that everyone be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of their sins. Those who believe God means what His word says will obey and their personal sins will be washed away. While others who refuse to believe God's message will not.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
LOL! you do not address what the Bible says. you distort, twist and ADD to it

personal interpretation in conjunction with whatever church you attend

people have covered your objections multiple of multiple times, every verse you have used and every remark you have made

salvation is not about water. I am sorry, truly sorry, that you do not believe you were saved until YEARS after you actually were saved

just about unbelievable!
I don't know how anyone can say I am adding a personal interpretation when the scripture presented specifically says, Why wait? Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord.

Are you suggesting that the scripture does not say that?
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
2,256
1,433
113
I don't know how anyone can say I am adding a personal interpretation when the scripture presented specifically says, Why wait? Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord.

Are you suggesting that the scripture does not say that?
You're putting obedience before faith. Abraham believed before he was circumcised. There were plenty of other nations of that time who circumcised, who were not right with God.

The washing away of the sins is through faith in Christ (calling on the name of the Lord for forgiveness). The baptism is a demonstration of the immersion into Christ that has taken place. The Jews of that time also practiced baptism, but it was useless without saving faith (in Christ).
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
It is interesting that you refuse to accept what Ananias told Paul. You do know that without the washing away of one's personal sins they cannot enter heaven, right?

Again, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

You must not be reading my entire posts. I have stated many times that I believe what the word states. And the word states one must be water baptized in addition to believing, repenting and receiving the Holy Ghost in order to be saved.
I have been reading all your posts.
I disagree that baptism saves us whereas as you believe if we are not baptised we are not saved.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
and who is the messenger? it's actually not you. you are not the Holy Spirit and you do not speak for Him.

as it is, I'm not responding to you again in this thread

it's the same ole worn out nonsense that you have spouted for some yrs now. you really should have your own personal one stop water thread
To even suggest I think I am the Holy Spirit is really low. A messenger is someone who carries a message to others. Nothing more. We should all be doing that according to Jesus. (Matt. 28:19)

Furthermore the born again believer has been indwelt by the Holy Ghost. And according to scripture the Holy Ghost has the ability to teach us all things and prompts us how we should answer others.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Luke 12:11-12
And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
Heavy burden? Really? The need to believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, and repent, and submit to being immersed in the water's of baptism is what you consider a heavy burden?
The heavy burden you place on people is telling them that if they are not baptised then they are not saved as their sins are remissed.

Exactly the same burden laid on me when I was told because I did not speak in tongues I was not saved.

It’s akin to telling people that works save them.

Basically it’s heresy and building on the foundation with crap and precious stuff.

You obviously do not read my posts either and in fact a few you have not had the guts to answer.

This one would suffice.

Are we justified by faith or baptism?
Another one to throw out there.

Are we declared righteous by baptism or faith?

Hopefully at some you will just answer questions given to you not just by me but others.

Don’t quote bible verses as I know them.
I have already told my stance.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
Paul had to believe, FIRST.
This happened before He met Ananias, as you find that He called Jesus...."LORD".

This happens in the heart, and not in the water., and it happened to Paul before he was baptized in water.
Jesus was Paul's -"LORD"< before Ananias talked to Paul about John the Baptist's water baptism for Jews.

So, what you have, is a Jew, Ananias..... who is talking to Paul regarding the Baptism of John the Baptist.
This Jew knows nothing about Spiritual Baptism, as that was taught by Paul, much later.
He also does not know that "faith is counted as righteousness", or anything about "Justification by faith", as these were taught by Paul, much later.

So, what you have here, is a standard situation that some Apostles had also...., and this is the same issue that Ananias has...

Its this........ "you can't know what you dont know, until you know it".

So, Ananias, is talking to Paul about John the Baptist's water baptism for JEWS, as that is all he knows... to tell Paul.

Later, .......Paul tells us that Christ didn't send Him to water baptize.....so, that isn't a contradiction,. that is the Gentile Apostle, understanding LATER that the Grace of God is to be born again by : SPIRITUAL Baptism......not by water.
Ananias didnt yet have this revelation, as Paul was the one who would much LATER bring this revelation to the Church.

Ananias not knowing anything about the Gospel of The Grace of God, is why he is talking to Paul about John the Baptist's old covenant water baptism that was given only to : JEWS.
This is like Peter, in ACTs 10, not yet knowing that Gentiles can be SAVED.

See, when you dont know something, you can't teach it., and you sometimes find this in the NT, and these that are doing something that isn't "church doctrine"....., are doing only what they know to do, until later, when they learned MORE REVELATION.
It was Jesus who told Paul he would be told all that he was required to do. Surely you are not suggesting that Jesus did not tell Ananias what to tell Paul, are you?

Also, scripture makes it clear that Paul both received the Holy Ghost and got water baptized. One does not replace the other.

Acts 22:10
And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
Peter was taught the Gospel of the Grace of God by Paul.
Peter didnt even know that Gentiles could be saved, even many years after Christ was back in Heaven. See : Acts 10
Peter is not the apostle to the gentiles, and in fact, later teaches in 2nd Peter that Paul's LETTERS, that he had in his possession, are equal to the TORAH.
So, that is peter saying that Paul's letters, are equal to what Jesus read from, when He was here.
Peter initially provided the message of salvation to both Jews and Gentiles, Afterward he assisted in the Samaritan's receiving the Holy Ghost. Afterward Paul was to carry the same message to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. While Peter continued to minister to the Jews.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
God gives the Spiritual Baptism when you believe in Jesus, and are born again.

Salvation has 2 parts.

1.) you BELIEVE, and God justifies you by this faith, and applies the BLOOD ATONEMENT to you.... and this makes you "the righteousness of God, in Christ"......instantly.

2.) THEN, God gives you the NEW BIRTH.......>He causes your spirit to be born again INTO His Holy Spirit, by His Holy Spirit. .

What comes next?
Well, you could be water baptized. Thats what Paul did.
I wasn't. I did that 11 yrs after i was born again.
Many do it soon after they are born again.

Those who are deceived, do it instead of being born again, and then come on forums like this one and talk about Water water, water water, as water is their savior,.........which is whey they talk about water.
You are choosing to accept opinions rather than what scripture says.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
God gives the Spiritual Baptism when you believe in Jesus, and are born again.

Salvation has 2 parts.

1.) you BELIEVE, and God justifies you by this faith, and applies the BLOOD ATONEMENT to you.... and this makes you "the righteousness of God, in Christ"......instantly.

2.) THEN, God gives you the NEW BIRTH.......>He causes your spirit to be born again INTO His Holy Spirit, by His Holy Spirit. .

What comes next?
Well, you could be water baptized. Thats what Paul did.
I wasn't. I did that 11 yrs after i was born again.
Many do it soon after they are born again.

Those who are deceived, do it instead of being born again, and then come on forums like this one and talk about Water water, water water, as water is their savior,.........which is whey they talk about water.
Everything you state does not change the fact that
Paul's sins were washed away through his obedience to the command to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 22:16) Was that the only requirement in order to receive the new birth? No. He had to believe in Jesus, repent and receive the Holy Ghost as well.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
You're putting obedience before faith. Abraham believed before he was circumcised. There were plenty of other nations of that time who circumcised, who were not right with God.

The washing away of the sins is through faith in Christ (calling on the name of the Lord for forgiveness). The baptism is a demonstration of the immersion into Christ that has taken place. The Jews of that time also practiced baptism, but it was useless without saving faith (in Christ).
Faith is what prompts obedience. Paul believed it was Jesus who appeared to him, however, directly from scripture we see that his sins were no washed away at that moment. What we do see is Paul believed Jesus when he said go to Damascus where he would be told what he must do. Paul is told to be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord. He believes Ananias and does what he is told.

Now consider what would have happened if Paul believed it was Jesus but refused to obey what Jesus told him to do. Would Paul's sins have been washed away? Not according to scripture.

The word makes it clear that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey him. (Heb. 5:9)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
The heavy burden you place on people is telling them that if they are not baptised then they are not saved as their sins are remissed.

Exactly the same burden laid on me when I was told because I did not speak in tongues I was not saved.

It’s akin to telling people that works save them.

Basically it’s heresy and building on the foundation with crap and precious stuff.

You obviously do not read my posts either and in fact a few you have not had the guts to answer.

This one would suffice.

Are we justified by faith or baptism?
Another one to throw out there.

Are we declared righteous by baptism or faith?

Hopefully at some you will just answer questions given to you not just by me but others.

Don’t quote bible verses as I know them.
I have already told my stance.
Both are required, see James' comment about the righteousness of Abraham:

James 2:19-23
"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can't you see that faith without good deeds is useless?

21 Don't you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith."24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone." New Living Translation ®
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
851
242
43
66
We all are.
Truth is it will not be resolved until Jesus comes back.
Whilst we are alive we should continue to refute it and help those who have been exposed to this heresy and teach them the truth to release the chains they have been given.
I do not disagree with your reasoning at all but as you know, to help someone, first implies they want to be helped. I have read, as I am sure you have, his posts and he shows no signs of wanting help but remains stubbornly opposed to revealed Truth in the Scriptures.

There comes a point where one must take a final stand and walk away. I have always had tremendous patience with those who are questioning but little patience with those who think themselves teachers and have little or no Truth in their teachings. In short, "a religionist". Throughout The Gospels, our Lord had the strongest language for the religionist of His day. He also had extreme patience with those who were questioning. If one professes himself to be a religious guide but walks in darkness, then that one should be called a "hypocrite", "viper" and "blind guide".
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,139
2,359
113
Many see Paul's experience where Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus as the point in which he received his conversion. (Acts 9:3-6) This is not the case. How can this be known? Because we see his sins were not washed away at that moment. Nor had he received the Holy Ghost. It is at this point, however, that Jesus makes the following statement:

Acts 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

What Ananias tells Paul he must do in Acts 9:10-18 and Acts 22:16 parallels exactly what Jesus, Peter, Philip, and Paul himself later told others they must do. After believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection everyone, including Paul, was required to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost.

Paul's experience is one more example within the word that no one is exempt. All must obey God's NT mandate.
Hello Wansvic,

Well, I would remind you of the thief on the cross who could not come down to be baptized or do anything at all, except have faith, which alone brought him into the kingdom of God. I would also mention Cornelius' household, who while Peter was still speaking the gospel them, the Spirit fell upon them and they spoke in languages and prophesied and that without being baptized, performing works, being under the law, etc. For Peter said later that God cleansed their hearts by faith.

By the way, the scripture does not say that Jesus directly told Ananias to have Paul Baptized. Below is what the Lord said:

"Get up!” the Lord told him. “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.

"So Ananias went to the house, and when he arrived, he placed his hands on Saul. “Brother Saul,” he said, “the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here, has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, the "it shall be told thee what you must do" was for Ananias to place his hands on Saul so that he could receive his sight and to receive the Holy Spirit. Paul's being Baptized was/is a public proclamation of his faith in Christ, but it does not save a person. Don't get me wrong, since the word of God says for us to be Baptized, then we should. However, if someone received Christ and living a life of faith, but was never baptized, I don't believe that would keep them from receiving eternal life.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,139
2,359
113
Both are required, see James' comment about the righteousness of Abraham:

James 2:19-23
"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can't you see that faith without good deeds is useless?

21 Don't you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: "Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith."24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone." New Living Translation ®
It was before Isaac was even born that Abraham was credited with righteousness for his faith. Below are the scriptures:

But Abram replied, “O Lord GOD, what can You give me, since I remain childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” Abram continued, “Behold, You have given me no offspring, so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

Then the word of the LORD came to Abram, saying, “This one will not be your heir, but one who comes from your own body will be your heir.” And the LORD took him outside and said, “Now look to the heavens and count the stars, if you are able.” Then He told him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

So it was by faith alone that Abraham was credited with righteousness. It is the same for all believers, we also are credited with righteousness when we believe and trust in God as the One who sent His Son to pay the penalty for our sins.

We are not saved by performing works, but they follow as a result of our faith and the indwelling of the Spirit and by them we glorify God and are building up our treasures in heaven. But we are not saved by them.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
I do not disagree with your reasoning at all but as you know, to help someone, first implies they want to be helped. I have read, as I am sure you have, his posts and he shows no signs of wanting help but remains stubbornly opposed to revealed Truth in the Scriptures.

There comes a point where one must take a final stand and walk away. I have always had tremendous patience with those who are questioning but little patience with those who think themselves teachers and have little or no Truth in their teachings. In short, "a religionist". Throughout The Gospels, our Lord had the strongest language for the religionist of His day. He also had extreme patience with those who were questioning. If one professes himself to be a religious guide but walks in darkness, then that one should be called a "hypocrite", "viper" and "blind guide".
Do you know what?
After I responded to your post I did actually start to think how would Jesus approached the situation and what would he say.

I came to same conclusion you have quoted above.
In fact in previous posts I think I have referenced the teaching of baptism saves is heresy and in fact akin to laying a millstone on a person and giving a heavy burden to a believer, just like the Pharisees did.

So yes I agree and commend what you say.

I think I came from the angle of someone who believes something that they have been told, rather than research for themselves.
That is where I got a bit worried.
However the person whose teaching we oppose as you say is teaching something that I believe has no biblical truth due to a lack of Hermeneutics.

So yes I agree with you.

Thank you for responding.
 
Mar 14, 2011
77,140
18,008
113
You are choosing to accept opinions rather than what scripture says.
this is exactly why you cant talk to this person.

Hi gives his OPINION of what scripture says, Then when anyone disagrees with him. It’s THEIR OPINION.

A hypocrite at heart
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
3,483
1,134
113
These are excellent observations about Paul being chosen.

If we would look at the attributes God looked for in the man God chose to be his apostle to the gentiles we will see things God looks for in us to make us His disciples, like an understanding of both Jews and gentiles and a thorough knowledge of the old testament scripture.
Paul is no different from Peter or John all of them were appointed to preach to all people and nationalities

Paul and barnabus being appointed to the Gentiles , and then I here focusing on Jerusalem was something Jesus had told them who walked with him to do first they had to preach it to all of Israel and then we’re to go out to the Gentiles the same as Paul

Paul was a Roman citizen by birth , he was much better suited to move about and be respected and even protected in gentile communities around the Roman Empire it saved him more than once , the others were all devout Jews who weren’t Roman citizens and were hated now by the other Jews because of their message that the Jews had crucified thier messiah , Paul also became hated terribly when he converted by the Jews of the ot law thy he became instant pursuers of Paul above the rest tonthe Pharisees Paul was a traitor

because of this oaul couldn’t preach and be in Jerusalem until he was sent like Jesus when he avoided he jerusalem when they began to pursue him until the lord sent him there to die for us

Paul’s life is a reflection of Jesus life , it’s the reason Paul seems exalted to Gentiles they hadn’t known the scriptures but Paul was a Pharisee and knew them well he was able to take the message in the prophets and speak it to Gentiles intelligibly to explain the revelation of Christ they hold without the hearer having to know scripture.


Because he was a Roman citizen and didn’t purchase it but was a citizen by birth he had been educated in the gentile language of Greek far better than any other apostle it logistically and practically made sense for Paul who was already converting Gentiles ( just as Peter also had been doing when God gave him his dream and sent him to Gentiles )
he also had the ability to enter into places the non roman citizens couldn’t

his prior education on the gentile language of dominance and eloquent ability to express words made him the right choice to lead the gentile conversion but it doesn’t make him any different or his message .

Paul is probably my favorite apostle to read because of the magnitude of content and revelation in his epistles , I feel as if many hold that view , but John , held revelation that speaks a message that holds something unique in that it’s seperate from the other three gospels and reveals the identity of Jesus Christ and our relationship to God the father through the son and how we are his children unlike any other apostle

paul holds a message about jew and gentile being made one , Gentiles being included into the promises of Abraham unlike any other apostle , he truly as he claimed experesses revelations of exceeding glory in the subject matter of the law , prophets and psalms and revealed many things over but his ministry is focused on gentile and jew having no difference at all but flesh meaning nothing who we were before Jesus and who we are after changes everything jew or gentile according to Paul , repentance and faith in Christ and belief of the gospel is salvstion by grace and faith

Each has thier own unique focus in thier doctrine , and hilghkightbunderstsndkng that makes the other apostles doctrine clearer it’s all one message and is to jew and all gentile peoples to be made into Gods kingdom and it’s people
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
4,160
2,343
113
ummmmmmmm

i never said that Charismatics have a "demon"...
is this a language problem? I said DENOM which is short for denomination...demon, was never a part of my post. OK? again I said DENOM....that is short for denomination

I'll tell you what ive seen......Ive seen Charismatics take children into a room, and try to make them ""speak in tongues"..

I've seen this from 10 feet away, as i was in the room.
ok....but that is off the charts not good...

Where did i see this?

1.) Assembly of God Church, .. a big one, in the USA.


That's not of God., and will never be, and that is not the only Charismatic Organization that does that to kids.
no it is not of God. I agree

Do i consider this "demon possession".
I do not.
I consider it STUPID AND IGNORANT AND PRETENTIOUS, AND COMPLETELY FAKE, ... because that is what it is.


Now, do i teach against "gift of the Spirit".........i do not.
But i can smell spiritual fake, as ive been doing what i do, since 1991.
we are on the same page....an expression meaning we agree

so, are we ok now? I never said demon....please check my post....I said DENOM, short for denomination