PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

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Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
2,109
684
113
Usa
#1
Blessings family! I am asking you what you believe scripturally! I am NOT asking for a fierce debate of "why I'm right and you are wrong" here! I and most likely others want to know the facts about His end time coming. I'm not looking for any of you to tell me what you've been taught nor what your Pastor says! I am sincere in my asking and I need feed back that is easy to understand in the word,organized and precise! Simplistic terms please but be concise to prove your point. I have been serving the Lord many years and until now,no one has satisfied my question. There seems to be MUCH division on this study! So plz play nice and help myself and others to understand! Thank you in advance for your input and your Christian behaviour!🙏🙏🙏
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
39,685
11,815
113
#2
Post Great Trib Pre Wrath is what I believe.....was raised Imminent return and cannot jive that with scripture....read my book in the blog section....212 pages, 26 chapters written in 2007....can add another 5 chapters easily.....lays out why In
no longer believe imminent return
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
2,109
684
113
Usa
#3
Post Great Trib Pre Wrath is what I believe.....was raised Imminent return and cannot jive that with scripture....read my book in the blog section....212 pages, 26 chapters written in 2007....can add another 5 chapters easily.....lays out why In
no longer believe imminent return
Thank you!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,354
2,301
113
#4
I and most likely others want to know the facts about His end time coming.
BIBLE FACT #1. Christ must first come FOR His saints before He comes WITH His saints after the Marriage of the Lamb.

BIBLE FACT #2. At the Resurrection/Rapture, Christ comes IN THE AIR and FOR His saints, and His coming is imminent (could be at any time, unexpected, sudden).

BIBLE FACT #3. At the Second Coming of Christ, He comes WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS to judge the world and to set up His everlasting Kingdom (first as a Millenial Kingdom and then as the eternal Kingdom of God). All the inhabitants of th world will see His coming and weep, and wail, and mourn.

BIBLE FACT #4. Neither the Tribulation nor the Great Tribulation has any application to believers. Those periods are for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the wicked, and the enemies of Christ.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
2,109
684
113
Usa
#5
BIBLE FACT #1. Christ must first come FOR His saints before He comes WITH His saints after the Marriage of the Lamb.

BIBLE FACT #2. At the Resurrection/Rapture, Christ comes IN THE AIR and FOR His saints, and His coming is imminent (could be at any time, unexpected, sudden).

BIBLE FACT #3. At the Second Coming of Christ, He comes WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS to judge the world and to set up His everlasting Kingdom (first as a Millenial Kingdom and then as the eternal Kingdom of God). All the inhabitants of th world will see His coming and weep, and wail, and mourn.

BIBLE FACT #4. Neither the Tribulation nor the Great Tribulation has any application to believers. Those periods are for the unbelieving, the ungodly, the wicked, and the enemies of Christ.
please post scripture to back your testament....thank you!🙏🙏🙏
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,354
2,301
113
#6
please post scripture to back your testament....thank you!🙏🙏🙏
That would require an e-book. Just kidding. Since you asked for views, what you see is what you get.:)
 

azamzimtoti

Active member
Apr 3, 2019
441
224
43
#8
Post tribulation. The problem is you are projecting the tribulation into the future rather than where it belongs in the 1st century.

(Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” )

(Rev 7:14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. )

Note the preceding verses:

(Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed )

James writes to these "144,000" of the 12 tribes in his letter:

(James 1:1 James, a bond servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. )

(James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials )
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
2,109
684
113
Usa
#9
Post tribulation. The problem is you are projecting the tribulation into the future rather than where it belongs in the 1st century.

(Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” )

(Rev 7:14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. )

Note the preceding verses:

(Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed )

James writes to these "144,000" of the 12 tribes in his letter:

(James 1:1 James, a bond servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. )

(James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials )
I'm sorry you have give an inappropriate response! I asked for spiritually ,in the word concise organized facts to substantiate any claim to the pre -trib rapture the mid-trib rapture or the post trib rapture! You have NO facts to enlighten us! Thank you anyway🙏🙏🙏
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
661
202
43
#11
Blessings family! I am asking you what you believe scripturally! I am NOT asking for a fierce debate of "why I'm right and you are wrong" here! Thank you in advance for your input and your Christian behaviour!🙏🙏🙏
Rapture/catching-up & 2nd Coming are 2 different events.

Rapture/catching-up (1 Thes 4:17) Saints MEET the Lord in the AIR

2nd Coming (Zec 14:4) his FEET shall STAND in that day upon the Mount of Olives

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(NOTE: Chamber is a reference to marriage chamber. Believers are hidden/kept from the wrath coming to the unbelieving world.)

John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also
(NOTE: Jesus goes to heaven to prepare living accommodations for his church)

The Body/Bride of Christ/Church escapes God's wrath. The great tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s/ISRAEL trouble (Jer 30:7)

Jesus comes & takes His Bride "The Church" to heaven. Before the Wrath of God judges all unbelievers for their rebellion at the 2 coming of Christ

1 Thes 1:10 wait on his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivers us from the wrath to come
(NOTE: Jesus delivers believers from the wrath to come)

Rev 3:10 I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth
(NOTE: Jesus delivers believers from the hour of temptation/wrath to come)

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
(NOTE: The Caught-up/Raptured saint are with Christ when he returns to execute judgment upon all)

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, """at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints""".
(NOTE: The Caught-up/Raptured saint are with Christ when he returns to execute judgment upon all)

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(NOTE: A promise to believers, they will be spared the hour of temptation/wrath coming to be exacted upon a Christ rejecting/unbelievinfg world)

OT Examples of God sparing the Righteous/Believers from coming wrath

Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

The Body/Bride of Christ/Church is Caught-Up/raptured, delivered from wrath coming to a God rebellious world.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,476
707
113
#12
Blessings family! I am asking you what you believe scripturally! I am NOT asking for a fierce debate of "why I'm right and you are wrong" here! I and most likely others want to know the facts about His end time coming. I'm not looking for any of you to tell me what you've been taught nor what your Pastor says! I am sincere in my asking and I need feed back that is easy to understand in the word,organized and precise! Simplistic terms please but be concise to prove your point. I have been serving the Lord many years and until now,no one has satisfied my question. There seems to be MUCH division on this study! So plz play nice and help myself and others to understand! Thank you in advance for your input and your Christian behaviour!🙏🙏🙏
You're not going to get a concensus here. There's a reason this subject garners so much debate - WE ALL DISAGREE ON THE FACTS. One man's fact is another man's heresy. And we all use the same scripture to prove our myriad interpretations. My position is, pray for pre, but prepare for post.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,754
2,818
113
#13
I'm sorry you have give an inappropriate response! I asked for spiritually ,in the word concise organized facts to substantiate any claim to the pre -trib rapture the mid-trib rapture or the post trib rapture! You have NO facts to enlighten us! Thank you anyway🙏🙏🙏

I'm a pre-tribber for MANY reasons: Here are just some:

Comparing the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ
In the study of Eschatology, these two events are often confused because they are similar. Both happen during end times and both describe a return of Christ. Yet there are important differences to discern. The following is a comparison of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, highlighting the key distinctions noted in Scripture.

1) Meeting in the Air - Versus - Returning with Him
In the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air:

  • For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:1617 (NIV)

In the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord:


2) Before Tribulation - Versus - After Tribulation
The Tribulation is a future seven-year period when God will complete his discipline of Israel and final judgment upon the unbelieving citizens of the world. The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation:

  • For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)
  • Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)

While the Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation:

  • And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave,great and small.” Revelation 17-18 (NIV)

3) Deliverance - Versus - Judgment
In the Rapture believers are taken from the earth by God as an act of deliverance:

  • After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:1317
  • For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)

In the Second Coming unbelievers are removed from the earth by God as an act of judgment:

  • Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
  • But the beast was captured and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs, he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Revelation 19:11-21 )NIV)

4) Hidden - Versus - Seen by All
The Rapture, according to Scripture, will be an instantaneous, hidden event:

  • Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54

The Second Coming, according to Scripture, will be seen by everyone:

  • “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. Revelation 1:7

5) At Any Moment - Versus - Only After Certain Events
The Rapture could happen at any moment:

  • ...While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13 (NIV)
  • For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (NIV)

The Second Coming won't happen until certain events take place:

  • He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called Godor is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NIV)
  • Immediately after the distress of those days, "The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Matthew 24:15-30 (NIV)
  • Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Revelation 6-18 (NIV)
 

azamzimtoti

Active member
Apr 3, 2019
441
224
43
#14
I'm sorry you have give an inappropriate response! I asked for spiritually ,in the word concise organized facts to substantiate any claim to the pre -trib rapture the mid-trib rapture or the post trib rapture! You have NO facts to enlighten us! Thank you anyway🙏🙏🙏
Not convinced? There's more.

(Mat 24:15 Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand )

(Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. )
.
.
(Mat 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will )

In the above at the time of the great tribulation Jesus' people are told to flee Judea, there is no idea of a rapture presented by Him.

If we look at Luke's gospel we can place the admonition to flee to the mountains at a certain period in time:

(Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. )

(Luke 21:21Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city )

Luke and Matthew are describing the same events although with some different aspects of that time and events.

We know that Jerusalem was desolated/destroyed during the events of the 66-70 AD war therefore this places the great tribulation to that time period.

In both Luke and Matthew Jesus stated:

(Mat 24:34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. )

(Luke 21:32 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. )
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,099
837
113
#15
I'm a pre-tribber for MANY reasons: Here are just some:

Comparing the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ
In the study of Eschatology, these two events are often confused because they are similar. Both happen during end times and both describe a return of Christ. Yet there are important differences to discern. The following is a comparison of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, highlighting the key distinctions noted in Scripture.

1) Meeting in the Air - Versus - Returning with Him
In the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air:

  • For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:1617 (NIV)

In the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord:


2) Before Tribulation - Versus - After Tribulation
The Tribulation is a future seven-year period when God will complete his discipline of Israel and final judgment upon the unbelieving citizens of the world. The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation:

  • For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)
  • Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)

While the Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation:

  • And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave,great and small.” Revelation 17-18 (NIV)

3) Deliverance - Versus - Judgment
In the Rapture believers are taken from the earth by God as an act of deliverance:

  • After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:1317
  • For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)

In the Second Coming unbelievers are removed from the earth by God as an act of judgment:

  • Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
  • But the beast was captured and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs, he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Revelation 19:11-21 )NIV)

4) Hidden - Versus - Seen by All
The Rapture, according to Scripture, will be an instantaneous, hidden event:

  • Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54

The Second Coming, according to Scripture, will be seen by everyone:

  • “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. Revelation 1:7

5) At Any Moment - Versus - Only After Certain Events
The Rapture could happen at any moment:

  • ...While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13 (NIV)
  • For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (NIV)

The Second Coming won't happen until certain events take place:

  • He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called Godor is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NIV)
  • Immediately after the distress of those days, "The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Matthew 24:15-30 (NIV)
  • Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Revelation 6-18 (NIV)
To the point and well said.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
2,109
684
113
Usa
#16
Not convinced? There's more.

(Mat 24:15 Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand )

(Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. )
.
.
(Mat 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will )

In the above at the time of the great tribulation Jesus' people are told to flee Judea, there is no idea of a rapture presented by Him.

If we look at Luke's gospel we can place the admonition to flee to the mountains at a certain period in time:

(Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. )

(Luke 21:21Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city )

Luke and Matthew are describing the same events although with some different aspects of that time and events.

We know that Jerusalem was desolated/destroyed during the events of the 66-70 AD war therefore this places the great tribulation to that time period.

In both Luke and Matthew Jesus stated:

(Mat 24:34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. )

(Luke 21:32 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. )
thank you once again your answer isn't an answer to the question. I am not ignorant to the end time signs! Please READ the question and follow the thread . I am open hearted sincere in my desire for an answer as I feel having here this subject has been expounded in error. Thanks!🙏🙏🙏
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
2,109
684
113
Usa
#17
I'm a pre-tribber for MANY reasons: Here are just some:

Comparing the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ
In the study of Eschatology, these two events are often confused because they are similar. Both happen during end times and both describe a return of Christ. Yet there are important differences to discern. The following is a comparison of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, highlighting the key distinctions noted in Scripture.

1) Meeting in the Air - Versus - Returning with Him
In the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air:

  • For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:1617 (NIV)

In the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord:


2) Before Tribulation - Versus - After Tribulation
The Tribulation is a future seven-year period when God will complete his discipline of Israel and final judgment upon the unbelieving citizens of the world. The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation:

  • For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)
  • Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)

While the Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation:

  • And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave,great and small.” Revelation 17-18 (NIV)

3) Deliverance - Versus - Judgment
In the Rapture believers are taken from the earth by God as an act of deliverance:

  • After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:1317
  • For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)

In the Second Coming unbelievers are removed from the earth by God as an act of judgment:

  • Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
  • But the beast was captured and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs, he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Revelation 19:11-21 )NIV)

4) Hidden - Versus - Seen by All
The Rapture, according to Scripture, will be an instantaneous, hidden event:

  • Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54

The Second Coming, according to Scripture, will be seen by everyone:

  • “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. Revelation 1:7

5) At Any Moment - Versus - Only After Certain Events
The Rapture could happen at any moment:

  • ...While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13 (NIV)
  • For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (NIV)

The Second Coming won't happen until certain events take place:

  • He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called Godor is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NIV)
  • Immediately after the distress of those days, "The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Matthew 24:15-30 (NIV)
  • Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Revelation 6-18 (NIV)
Bless you,and thank you ! Your response was what I am hoping to find spiritually backed! You have encouraged many of us in our thoughts with your straight forward concise presentation in the word. Blessings to you and yours!🙏🙏🙏
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,093
831
113
#18
Blessings family! I am asking you what you believe scripturally! I am NOT asking for a fierce debate of "why I'm right and you are wrong" here! I and most likely others want to know the facts about His end time coming. I'm not looking for any of you to tell me what you've been taught nor what your Pastor says! I am sincere in my asking and I need feed back that is easy to understand in the word,organized and precise! Simplistic terms please but be concise to prove your point. I have been serving the Lord many years and until now,no one has satisfied my question. There seems to be MUCH division on this study! So plz play nice and help myself and others to understand! Thank you in advance for your input and your Christian behaviour!🙏🙏🙏

I would think John knew what meaning formed the words he was inspired to say. (mark) Not a mystery lacking smart techknowolgy 2 thousand years later. .

I would suggest applying the prescription found in 2 Corinthians 4:18 And rather than literal bread the temporal needed to feed these earthen bodies bread not seen as the will of God the food at first the disciples knew not of.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding

When looking for those that had not received his mark upon their foreheads( minds), or in their hands(will) We look to the things not seen to give us the understanding .God is not served by human hands...in any way shape or form seen. As if we did know him after the created rudiments of this corrupted world. he remain separate from His creation.

False prophets that performed miracles before him as lying wonders deceived them that already had the mark . (666) Natural unconverted mankind. Those who were sealed in the forehead , are no longer identified the mark of those not sealed.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh Revelation 19: 20-21

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years Rrevelation 20:4-5

The mark of the lying signs and wonders (false source of faith) The mark of the evil generation. (no faith in, coming from the true source of faith Christ.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
2,109
684
113
Usa
#19
I would think John knew what meaning formed the words he was inspired to say. (mark) Not a mystery lacking smart techknowolgy 2 thousand years later. .

I would suggest applying the prescription found in 2 Corinthians 4:18 And rather than literal bread the temporal needed to feed these earthen bodies bread not seen as the will of God the food at first the disciples knew not of.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding

When looking for those that had not received his mark upon their foreheads( minds), or in their hands(will) We look to the things not seen to give us the understanding .God is not served by human hands...in any way shape or form seen. As if we did know him after the created rudiments of this corrupted world. he remain separate from His creation.

False prophets that performed miracles before him as lying wonders deceived them that already had the mark . (666) Natural unconverted mankind. Those who were sealed in the forehead , are no longer identified the mark of those not sealed.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh Revelation 19: 20-21

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years Rrevelation 20:4-5

The mark of the lying signs and wonders (false source of faith) The mark of the evil generation. (no faith in, coming from the true source of faith Christ.
I'm not asking for end time signs and I'm realizing I may never get the exact answer but @ PennEd answered to my satisfaction!🙏🙏🙏
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,099
837
113
#20
Blessings family! I am asking you what you believe scripturally! I am NOT asking for a fierce debate of "why I'm right and you are wrong" here! I and most likely others want to know the facts about His end time coming. I'm not looking for any of you to tell me what you've been taught nor what your Pastor says! I am sincere in my asking and I need feed back that is easy to understand in the word,organized and precise! Simplistic terms please but be concise to prove your point. I have been serving the Lord many years and until now,no one has satisfied my question. There seems to be MUCH division on this study! So plz play nice and help myself and others to understand! Thank you in advance for your input and your Christian behaviour!🙏🙏🙏
Three of the major problems regarding the misunderstanding of the timing of the gathering of the church is:

1). Not recognizing that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events.
2). Not differentiating between common trials and tribulation vs. God's coming wrath
3). Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming, unprecedented wrath
4). Not understanding the underlying principal that Christ already experienced God's wrath on behalf of all believers.

PennEd described the differences succinctly between the two events in post #13. Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is shortly after the seventh bowl has been poured out that Jesus returns to the earth. Since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer satisfying it completely, then believers will not and cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

There are those who believe that God is going to preserve the church on the earth during the time of His wrath, which brings us to number 3). God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring, will be the worst time in history, with the majority of the earths population being decimated and all human government being dismantled (See Dan.2:31-45, Rev.6 thru 18). With just the results of the 4th seal and the 6 trumpet alone, (which are the only two places that give a percentage of the fatalities), a fourth and a third of the earths population will be killed, which is well over half of the earths population and that within just the first 3 1/2 years. This is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the seven bowl judgments. This is all supported by what Jesus said:

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

In the scripture above, Jesus is basically saying that as a result of God's wrath/tribulation, that if it was allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth.

Beginning from the middle of the seven years, scripture states that the beast will be given 42 months (last 3 1/2 years) to make war against the saints and to conquer them. If the church was here on the earth as some claim, then they would have to be those saints spoken of in Rev.13:5-7, which would demonstrate that God would not be protecting the church during that time, for many of them are beheaded. Fortunately, this is not in reference to the church, but the great tribulation saints.

Those who place the church on the earth during the time of God's wrath will make the comment that the apostles and the first century church were not protected or removed, but were persecuted and killed for their faith. The problem with this thinking is that they did not suffer God's wrath. They are not recognizing the difference between the common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, which Jesus said all believers would experience vs. God's direct, unprecedented, coming wrath. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer.

Regarding God's wrath and believers not being exposed to it, see the following scriptures:

Romans 5:9 - "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

1 Thess.1:10 - "They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

1 Thess.5:9 - "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

In continuing with their claim that the church will be on the earth, some have claimed that the above mentioned wrath is referring to the wrath at the great white throne judgment the result being the lake of fire. However, believers are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, whether the unprecedented wrath coming upon this earth, nor the ultimate wrath at white throne judgment. And that, as previously stated, is because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, otherwise it would be a double payment. Then we have the following promise:

Revelation 3:10 - "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you out of the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

The word "ek" is translated as "out of" meaning that for those who endure patiently, they will be kept out of that hour of trial, not thru it or during, but keep out of the time of God's wrath. And that by being changed and caught up according to His promise.

In addition to all of this, I would also add that within Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Then from Rev.4:1 onward, the word ekklesia/church never appears again within the narrative. In Rev.4:1 where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which was identified in Rev.1:10 as being Jesus' voice, is saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this!" I truly believe that this is a prophetic allusion to where the church is called up, which again is substantiated by the fact that the word ekklesia/church no longer appears from that time forward. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride. And the next time we actually see the word church again is in Rev. 22:16 in the epilog.

Further more, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the second coming when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Prior to that in Rev.19:6-8 we see the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride/church wearing her fine linen and riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven. Consequently, the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven. This is also supported by the following:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.

The conclusion is that, because Jesus took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then we cannot be exposed to God's wrath. And since God's wrath takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believer's must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. This will all be in fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-31 and Thessalonian 4:13-17.