Pre-Trib vs Post Trib and 1 Thess. 4:15

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
573
113
#21
Precious friend, some particulars of God's Great GRACE Departure may not be found
in one lone single verse, but will be found in the Bigger Picture of God's
"Revelation Of The Mystery" (Romans - Philemon) - i.e.:

God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body!
(2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20: Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20; Colossians 1:5)

"And The LORD shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve​
me unto His Heavenly Kingdom: to Whom be Glory for ever and ever.​
Amen. " (2 Timothy 4:18)​

Amen.
I agree that we need to consider all scriptural references on any particular topic, but, for now, are you willing to admit that 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 says absolutely nothing about an about face back to heaven?

In reality, the only people getting caught up there are the saints who are yet alive at Christ's coming and descent from heaven with the dead in Christ. In other words, Christ and the dead in Christ are descending, which is the opposite of being caught up, and the saints who are yet alive are only said to be caught up to meet them in the air during their descent. One needs to be conditioned to see a return to heaven in that portion of scripture because it simply does not exist in the actual text.

Furthermore, I am wondering if you have an answer to the question that I asked earlier as to why any of the dead in Christ who are coming and descending with Christ would suddenly need glorified bodies to allegedly return back to heaven with. I mean, if they have been there all the while without glorified bodies, then why the sudden need for glorified bodies there? You must admit, I would hope and think, that it is a ridiculous premise. If you think otherwise, then please give me a scriptural reason as to why the dead in Christ would suddenly need glorified bodies in heaven. Thank you.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#22
...1 Thessalonians chapter 4 says absolutely nothing about an about face back to heaven?
Really? Does anyone imagine that after the Resurrection/Rapture all the saints would go anywhere other than Heaven? Where do you think the Marriage of the Lamb occurs? And if it occurs in Heaven, why would the saints not go to Heaven? Do we really need textbook answers rather than be willing to connect the dots and use spiritual discernment?
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
573
113
#23
Really? Does anyone imagine that after the Resurrection/Rapture all the saints would go anywhere other than Heaven? Where do you think the Marriage of the Lamb occurs? And if it occurs in Heaven, why would the saints not go to Heaven? Do we really need textbook answers rather than be willing to connect the dots and use spiritual discernment?
Read Revelation chapter 20. At the first resurrection, which means that there was no resurrection of the saints prior to it, the saints are reigning here on earth with Jesus during his millennial reign.

Show me a scripture that states that the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven.

In the pre-trib scenario, Jesus and the saints are supposedly enjoying a 7 year supper in heaven while the tribulation saints are suffering here on earth. Who will they be praying to at the time seeing how Jesus will be stuffing his face for 7 years? It is ridiculous.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#24
Read Revelation chapter 20. At the first resurrection, which means that there was no resurrection of the saints prior to it, the saints are reigning here on earth with Jesus during his millennial reign.
Once again we have someone looking for text book answers. Do you know that the "First Resurrection" is actually in three phases (just like a Hebrew harvest)? See 1 Corinthians 15. And the Resurrection/Rapture is phase II, while the resurrection of the Tribulation martyrs is phase III. The reason why the Holy Spirit mentions the First Resurrection in Revelation 20 is because that same chapter has the Second Resurrection (unto damnation). So those two resurrections are being distinguished from each other.
Show me a scripture that states that the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven.
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: (Rev 19:1) Everything shown in Revelation 19:1-10 (including the Marriage of the Lamb) is in Heaven. And verse 11 actually confirms this: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,215
1,614
113
Midwest
#25
Christ and the dead in Christ are descending, which is the opposite of being caught up, and the saints who are yet alive are only said to be caught up to meet them in the air during their descent.
? Precious friend, are you sure? Please clarify: are you saying "the dead in Christ"
descend with Him And "Continue descending all the way to the earth with Him"? Or:

My Bible ( favorite verses, btw ) Has:

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,​
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and​
the dead in Christ shall rise first:​
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together​
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall​
we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)​

Did you mean to say?:

1) 'the souls' of the dead in Christ "descend with Him" = "Will God Bring With Him"
(v 14)?
+
2) "these souls are re-united with their dead bodies" and then they
"the dead in Christ shall rise first"?
+
3) And: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"


One needs to be conditioned to see a return to heaven in that portion of scripture because it simply does not exist in the actual text.
As already stated previously, my 'conditioning' is from All "the related
passages" ( rule 5b Of Bible study Rules ), so please re-review post #20.

However, to your point, would it be fair to note here, that:

Neither do I see, in this lone Passage, about the saints who "rose and were
caught UP together, to meet Him in the air":

A 'condition' to see them making a U-turn "to come back to the earth," Correct?

-----------------------------------------

My 'conditioning' ( response to my precious 'chess-player' friend who said I
'invented' this doctrine ) Rightly Divided study can be found here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,779
624
113
#26
"even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.". ", that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep."

After reading here I am not going to add to confusion by talking as if I am stating the true fact. As one bother said very wisely "my view" Are all trumpets the same? When Paul wrote this there was no Revelation written. Now are we talking about only one kind of trumpet as in judgments according to Revelation or of resurrection? Are there trumpets blown during the Jewish feast of Rosh Hashanah called Feast of Trumpets? Paul knew all about this so did the ones he was talking to.

So in Revelations what are those what 7 trumpets about... could it be judgement? So my view is if I die my flesh goes back to the ground I go to be with the Father. No one is as of yet like Christ. So Christ comes with all those that died (spirit) in the air voice shout trump and dead rise (flesh) those alive change (1st Cor 15) those with Christ the flesh and spirit change are now all as He is. Again my view :)

Why I said somewhere else we really need to look into Trumpets. If we know anything about Jewish customs back then.. there was not just one type of trumpet.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
573
113
#27
Once again we have someone looking for text book answers.
And that is problematic? Christians should always be looking for textbook answers; with the Bible as their textbook.
Do you know that the "First Resurrection" is actually in three phases (just like a Hebrew harvest)?
No, I do not, and neither do you, nor can you support your claim from rightly-divided scripture.
See 1 Corinthians 15.
I have, many times, and it does not support your claim.

1 Corinthians 15:19-28

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

According to the Apostle Paul's eschatology, Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept, or the first one to rise from the dead unto eternal life, and he was raised from the dead on the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. The saints who will be made alive in Christ will follow the order that Paul laid out for us, and that does not match your suggested order. Again, Christ is the firstfruits, and then afterwards those who are Christ's will be raised at his coming, singular, and not at his comings, plural, as you suggest.

Then, according to Paul, comes the end when or after he has delivered up the kingdom to God, or when he shall have put down all rule and authority and power, for he must reign, during his millennial reign, until he has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy, according to Paul, that shall be destroyed is death, and we know, from Revelation chapter 20, that death will be destroyed when it is cast into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's millennial reign with his saints who will be a part of the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:7-15

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

At the end of Christ's millennial reign, the second of only two resurrections takes place, and that is the resurrection unto damnation for all of those whose names will not be found written in the Lamb's book of life.

Furthermore, after this 1000-year reign on earth with the saints who partook of the first resurrection, Christ will deliver up the kingdom to the Father, just as Paul rightly stated.
And the Resurrection/Rapture is phase II, while the resurrection of the Tribulation martyrs is phase III.
That is something that you and others made up, and it is totally unsupported by scripture. In other words, there is no mention of a separate resurrection of the tribulation saints which allegedly differs from the first resurrection which occurs at Christ's coming (not comings).
The reason why the Holy Spirit mentions the First Resurrection in Revelation 20 is because that same chapter has the Second Resurrection (unto damnation). So those two resurrections are being distinguished from each other.
You got this part right, but it does nothing to support your claim that the first resurrection comes in three phases.
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: (Rev 19:1) Everything shown in Revelation 19:1-10 (including the Marriage of the Lamb) is in Heaven. And verse 11 actually confirms this: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Nope.

Regarding the marriage supper of the Lamb, this is what Revelation chapter 19 actually says:

Revelation 19:6-9

"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

This simply says that the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his wife has made herself ready. It says nothing about the marriage being in heaven. In fact, if it was in heaven, then all of the tribulation saints would miss it because they would have still been on earth. Your premise is ridiculous. Contrary to what you are suggesting here, Jesus will remain seated at the right hand of the Father, as the only mediator between God and man, until the time comes that his enemies are to be made his footstool. In your scenario, as I said in a previous post, Jesus is allegedly partaking in a 7-year-long feast (sounds like gluttony to me) while saints are being martyred here on earth with no one to mediate for them in heaven because Jesus is too busy chowing down with his celestial buddies. It is pure nonsense.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
573
113
#28
? Precious friend, are you sure? Please clarify: are you saying "the dead in Christ"
descend with Him And "Continue descending all the way to the earth with Him"?
Yes, that is precisely what I am saying.
Or:

My Bible ( favorite verses, btw ) Has:

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,​
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and​
the dead in Christ shall rise first:​
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together​
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall​
we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)​

Did you mean to say?:

1) 'the souls' of the dead in Christ "descend with Him" = "Will God Bring With Him"
(v 14)?
+
2) "these souls are re-united with their dead bodies" and then they
"the dead in Christ shall rise first"?
+
3) And: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"
The seeming confusion here really isn't confusing at all. In other words, there are two different types of "risings", if I can use that word, being described here.

On the one hand, the saints who will yet be alive at that time will be caught up (one type of "rising") to meet both Christ and the dead in Christ in their descent from heaven. They will also rise in the sense of being given resurrected and glorified bodies.

On the other hand, the dead in Christ will rise only in the sense of being given resurrected and glorified bodies, but not in the sense of being caught up. Again, they, the dead in Christ, are descending with Christ, and not rising in that sense.
As already stated previously, my 'conditioning' is from All "the related
passages" ( rule 5b Of Bible study Rules ), so please re-review post #20.

However, to your point, would it be fair to note here, that:

Neither do I see, in this lone Passage, about the saints who "rose and were
caught UP together, to meet Him in the air":

A 'condition' to see them making a U-turn "to come back to the earth," Correct?
If we are to solely consider this portion of scripture, then you would possibly be correct. However, when we consider what Paul said to the Corinthians as to why the saints need resurrected and glorified bodies, then a return trip to heaven is purely nonsensical.

1 Corinthians 15:50

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

As I said earlier in another response, the saints require resurrected, or glorified, or incorruptible bodies in order to inherit the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of God is coming to this earth; just like the Bible states in many places. As I also said earlier, if the kingdom of God being spoken of here referred to heaven, then Paul is a liar because many saints are presently in heaven without glorified bodies.
 

Grace911

Active member
Nov 11, 2018
595
148
43
#29
I think this parable is very telling.
Matthew 13:24–43

24He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; 25but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. 27And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ 28He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’29But he replied, ‘No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them.30Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’” 31He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that someone took and sowed in his field; 32it is the smallest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.” 33He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened.”34Jesus told the crowds all these things in parables; without a parable he told them nothing. 35This was to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth to speak in parables; I will proclaim what has been hidden from the foundation of the world.” 36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples approached him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”37He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;38the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!

Agriculturally speaking in Israel the 3rd Hebrew month (Sivan) ( our Gregorian month of May/June) is the time of wheat harvest and an offering made of two leavened bread is offered at Shavuot/Pentecost. Before the rapture, Tribulation of taking out the tares is first.

We can’t keep the Feasts, but we can study them and observe them at their proper time.

If you could see “time” through the LORD/YHWH time, you would know that all the prophecies are going to HAPPEN on HIS HOLY FEAST DAYS.

Yeshua/Jesus 100% filled His first coming on God’s Holy Time of the SPRING FEASTS. THERE IS NO REASON WHY WE SHOULD NOT EXPECT HIS SECOND COMING TO PERFECTLY FILL 100% on the Fall Feast Days. (See Leviticus 23).

His 1st coming ended on Shavuot/Pentecost with the giving of the Holy Spirit.

IMO His 2nd coming will begin with RApture of those who are living righteously on a very near Shavuot/Pentecost. The WHEAT HARVEST.

Obviously, I could be wrong because I am looking through rose colored glasses.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
573
113
#30
I think this parable is very telling.
Matthew 13:24–43

24He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; 25but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. 27And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ 28He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’29But he replied, ‘No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them.30Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’” 31He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that someone took and sowed in his field; 32it is the smallest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.” 33He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened.”34Jesus told the crowds all these things in parables; without a parable he told them nothing. 35This was to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth to speak in parables; I will proclaim what has been hidden from the foundation of the world.” 36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples approached him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”37He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;38the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!

Agriculturally speaking in Israel the 3rd Hebrew month (Sivan) ( our Gregorian month of May/June) is the time of wheat harvest and an offering made of two leavened bread is offered at Shavuot/Pentecost. Before the rapture, Tribulation of taking out the tares is first.

We can’t keep the Feasts, but we can study them and observe them at their proper time.

If you could see “time” through the LORD/YHWH time, you would know that all the prophecies are going to HAPPEN on HIS HOLY FEAST DAYS.

Yeshua/Jesus 100% filled His first coming on God’s Holy Time of the SPRING FEASTS. THERE IS NO REASON WHY WE SHOULD NOT EXPECT HIS SECOND COMING TO PERFECTLY FILL 100% on the Fall Feast Days. (See Leviticus 23).

His 1st coming ended on Shavuot/Pentecost with the giving of the Holy Spirit.

IMO His 2nd coming will begin with RApture of those who are living righteously on a very near Shavuot/Pentecost. The WHEAT HARVEST.

Obviously, I could be wrong because I am looking through rose colored glasses.
In my understanding, the Spring feasts foreshadowed events which would be fulfilled in Christ's first coming. After all, he was crucified on the Feast of Passover, raised from the dead on the Feast of Firstfruits, and the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Feast of Pentecost.

It makes sense to me that the Fall Feasts would similarly foreshadow events which will be fulfilled at Christ's second coming. Of course, the first Falltime Feast is the Feast of Trumpets, and I do not believe that it is only a coincidence that Christ's second coming coincides with a sound of a trumpet. In other words, I believe that that is the day on the Jewish calendar when Christ will return. In what year? I do not know, but I expect it to be on that specific calendar day.

I understand the parable of the tares a bit differently than you do, but I do not have time to address that now. Interestingly enough, I thought about addressing it earlier today, but I will need to address it some other time, Lord willing.
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
1,171
181
63
#31
I think this parable is very telling.
Matthew 13:24–43

24He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; 25but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. 27And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ 28He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’29But he replied, ‘No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them.30Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’” 31He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that someone took and sowed in his field; 32it is the smallest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.” 33He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed in with three measures of flour until all of it was leavened.”34Jesus told the crowds all these things in parables; without a parable he told them nothing. 35This was to fulfill what had been spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth to speak in parables; I will proclaim what has been hidden from the foundation of the world.” 36Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples approached him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”37He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;38the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!

Agriculturally speaking in Israel the 3rd Hebrew month (Sivan) ( our Gregorian month of May/June) is the time of wheat harvest and an offering made of two leavened bread is offered at Shavuot/Pentecost. Before the rapture, Tribulation of taking out the tares is first.

We can’t keep the Feasts, but we can study them and observe them at their proper time.

If you could see “time” through the LORD/YHWH time, you would know that all the prophecies are going to HAPPEN on HIS HOLY FEAST DAYS.

Yeshua/Jesus 100% filled His first coming on God’s Holy Time of the SPRING FEASTS. THERE IS NO REASON WHY WE SHOULD NOT EXPECT HIS SECOND COMING TO PERFECTLY FILL 100% on the Fall Feast Days. (See Leviticus 23).

His 1st coming ended on Shavuot/Pentecost with the giving of the Holy Spirit.

IMO His 2nd coming will begin with RApture of those who are living righteously on a very near Shavuot/Pentecost. The WHEAT HARVEST.

Obviously, I could be wrong because I am looking through rose colored glasses.
I see you have been watching Dr Barry Awe's and Generation2434's video on the New Wine rapture..
 

Grace911

Active member
Nov 11, 2018
595
148
43
#32
I see you have been watching Dr Barry Awe's and Generation2434's video on the New Wine rapture..
Never heard of this vidoeo or watched. Just reading the Bible.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,582
3,616
113
#33
"

There is NO (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture...period. The Lord Jesus said it was only false prophets and teachers who taught such destructive heresy, and that He would come in great power and glory, with every eye seeing Him! Matt 24v23-31, Rev 1v7
Yes as i said in my post i believe the rapture happens at the second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ..
 
Jan 26, 2023
31
7
8
#34
Once again we have someone looking for text book answers. Do you know that the "First Resurrection" is actually in three phases (just like a Hebrew harvest)? See 1 Corinthians 15. And the Resurrection/Rapture is phase II, while the resurrection of the Tribulation martyrs is phase III. The reason why the Holy Spirit mentions the First Resurrection in Revelation 20 is because that same chapter has the Second Resurrection (unto damnation). So those two resurrections are being distinguished from each other.
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: (Rev 19:1) Everything shown in Revelation 19:1-10 (including the Marriage of the Lamb) is in Heaven. And verse 11 actually confirms this: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
The "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" is the defeat of Satan's armies at Armageddon:

REV 19:
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

"17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,215
1,614
113
Midwest
#37
The "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" is the defeat of Satan's armies at Armageddon:
Thanks for the information! Could you also please tell us about:

"The Actual Marriage of The Lamb"? Is It before or after The "Marriage Supper"?

Thanks in advance...
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
#39
Show me a scripture that states that the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven.
It isn't.

"The wedding SUPPER / FEAST" is located on the earth, and IS the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, or at least its inauguration, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth ("when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." ...THEN "the meal [G347]"--so says Luke 12:36-37,38,40, 42-48... [parallel passage to Matt24:42-51]).


Rather, it is "the MARRIAGE" itself (pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [singular]"... presently "betrothed"--2Cor11:2--that's us) which is what will take place UP THERE (... "and SO [in this manner] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord").

"The wedding FEAST / SUPPER," on the other hand, is NOT what we will be attending up there upon "our Rapture" (that is NOT its purpose).

This is the distinction being shown between Rev19:7 (re: "the MARRIAGE" pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [singular]") and Rev19:9 (re: "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" pertaining to the "HAVING BEEN INVITED" guests ['they' / plural], which will commence upon His RETURN to the earth / i.e. the earthly MK age).


In the pre-trib scenario, Jesus and the saints are supposedly enjoying a 7 year supper in heaven while the tribulation saints are suffering here on earth.
That is not the "pre-trib" scenario.

Though, admittedly, some (poorly-taught) pre-tribbers do mistakenly say such. It simply is not the case.

But again, "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [the MK age, or its inauguration--located on the earth]" doesn't take place until Christ's "RETURN" to the earth (following Rev19), that is, commencing up His Second Coming to the earth (we will be returning WITH HIM, at that point in the chronology).








Who will they be praying to at the time seeing how Jesus will be stuffing his face for 7 years? It is ridiculous.
A completely misconstrued idea, and not what Scripture reveals... as to the chronology of things, and what happens where (etc).





[pre-tribber here :) .... Me... so this post is coming from the "pre-trib" perspective... just to be clear]
 
Jan 26, 2023
31
7
8
#40
Thanks for the information! Could you also please tell us about:

"The Actual Marriage of The Lamb"? Is It before or after The "Marriage Supper"?

Thanks in advance...
I'm no expert in Jewish customs, but from what I read The Marriage Supper is part of the Marriage.. and after that the husband brings his bride to their new home (final part of the Marriage).. eventually that place is the new-earth where new-Jerusalem descends out from the new-Heaven..