Predestination or free wiil.

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Your system of thought leaves out the leading of the Holy Spirit in the lost man's life. The Holy Spirit can lead a lost man to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the hearing of the gospel. It's then up to the lost man to respond to the Holy Spirit's calling.
I believe you are not interpreting 1 Cor 2:14, correctly, maybe you should read, and think on it a little more.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
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Your system of thought leaves out the leading of the Holy Spirit in the lost man's life. The Holy Spirit can lead a lost man to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the hearing of the gospel. It's then up to the lost man to respond to the Holy Spirit's calling.
I can see your point. We were all lost in life before the Father called us to His Son. Just as Jesus taught, none of us can come to salvation unless God calls us. And the only one's God can call to salvation are those who are without it, the lost.



John 1:46 And Nathaniel said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Then what are you going to do with Ps 73?
I believe Psalm 73. I would rather suffer in this life and have God perfect, establish, strengthen, settle me in my trials (1 Peter 5:10) than revel in the corruption of this life (which lasts only for a moment when compared with the eternal life God has prepared for His children).

If you look at Psalm 73:17 you will see that David was envious at the foolish, when [he] saw the prosperity of the wicked (vs 3) only until he went into the sanctuary of God; then understood [he] their end.

And until we get to the point where we continuously look to the Lord Jesus Christ and keep our hearts turned toward Him, we will look at the wicked with the same mindset David did in Psalm 73:3-16.

And once we focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, we will come to the same conclusion David did in Psalm 73:18-28.




ForestGreenCook said:
All scriptures must harmonize. Do you want to leave that one put?
In your distraction with Psalm 73, I note you do not address the issue I pointed out to you.

In your post #169, you stated

"The wicked (non elect) are not chastened here on earth, but are judged at the last day."

I replied in post #176:

"Sodom and Gomorrah was not God's judgment on "wicked (non elect)"???

According to Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

Read Acts 12 and see what happened to Herod (vs 23 - And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost).

God judges the wicked in their lifetime on earth and they reap consequences for their behavior in rejecting God."

Since, as you claim, "all scriptures must harmonize", is it your belief that Sodom and Gomorrah was not God's chastening and/or judgment on the "wicked (non elect)"? And what about Acts 12:23? That was not chastening / judgment?

Lamentations 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment.


And despite your protestation, God continues to chasten the wicked in this lifetime.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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When a word is added it is added by the translators to more clearly convey the meaning of the translation. It is your choice to reject the KJV translators meaning of the scriptures, but I find it to be more closely projecting the harmony of the scriptures. So, its just a matter of which translators you want to trust. We all are on this forum, I hope, to discuss the scriptures in an attempt to project what we think is the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught. We, obviously, will come to some disagreements and I apologize if I have come across to strongly in my defense of what I believe to be the truth.
Since we are "all on this forum, I hope, to discuss the scriptures in an attempt to project what we think is the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught", then I believe we would all be better served in addressing the points made by those with whom we are discussing rather than engage in endless ad hominem attack.




ForestGreenCook said:
My objective is to praise and honor God in giving him total credit for the eternal salvation he has secured for those that he loves.
When you engage in ad hominem attack, do you really believe you are praising and honoring God in giving Him total credit for eternal salvation?




Ephesians 4:

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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The Jew does not believe in Christ but, they are fully oriented to belief in G-d. Thus the basis for terminal conflict with the AC....especially those who quickly switch support and belief in Christ after the rapture.
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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The scriptures say that God knows the end from the beginning and the thoughts in your mind before you speak and he knows the number of every hair on your head at any given time. It amazes me how any one can discredit God's power and knowledge.
An evidence of this is what is happening in the US these days. One sign of condemnation is an eclipse crossing the country. This country was founded as a Christian nation. Today only a splinter is Christian. The big mainline denominations went secular starting in the 1880s. By the 1930s only the sub denominations and independent churches still preach the gospel message. Almost half of the people attend churches but most never hear the gospel message. I talked to a man at an after evening special invitation service with refreshments being served. He attended regularly a Lutheran church and heard the gospel message for the first time. Too many wolves in sheep's clothing are in most of the pulpits.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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The scriptures say that God knows the end from the beginning and the thoughts in your mind before you speak and he knows the number of every hair on your head at any given time. It amazes me how any one can discredit God's power and knowledge.
Evidence of knowing the end from the begining is evidence today with the condemnation of the US. Eclipses have condemned countries before. The US started as a Christian nation. It now only has a splinter of people who are Christians. All of the big denominations are secular with only sub denominations and independent churches still preaching the gospel message. Eclipses crossing a country have historically condemned nations. The US had an eclipse cross the US straight across it. In 2024 there will be another eclipse going from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem. God knowing the end from the begining set these events in motion at creation. Think of the awesome power of God to cause these eclipses to occur now after the US has rejected God.
 

trofimus

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Aug 17, 2015
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Hevosmies

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No. 70% of ppl in Israel do not believe in God. Its worse than in the westerm Europe.

Jews are not just antichristian, they are mostly atheists.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-china-among-least-religious-nations-1.5350737
Wish more people would get this.

I have heard people say that yeah the jews, they believe in the OT God, they just believe in the Father and dont know Jesus is the MEssiah yet.
Well NO they dont believe in any deity to begin with, lots of them.

I have also heard that they accept the OT and we lose them in matthew 1:1. But in reality we lose them at GENESIS, since many dont even believe in the literal creation story.

Regardless of all this, I still believe there is a future for Israel, according to the book of Romans, and the promises of God in the O.T. Israel has been in unbelief and idolatry before, this is nothing new. They have returned in the past, that is also nothing new!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Wish more people would get this.

I have heard people say that yeah the jews, they believe in the OT God, they just believe in the Father and dont know Jesus is the MEssiah yet.
Well NO they dont believe in any deity to begin with, lots of them.

I have also heard that they accept the OT and we lose them in matthew 1:1. But in reality we lose them at GENESIS, since many dont even believe in the literal creation story.

Regardless of all this, I still believe there is a future for Israel, according to the book of Romans, and the promises of God in the O.T. Israel has been in unbelief and idolatry before, this is nothing new. They have returned in the past, that is also nothing new!
I think that the letter to Romans does not say anthing about the future for Israel... The only future Israel has is to become Christians like the rest of the world, IMO.
 

Hevosmies

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I think that the letter to Romans does not say anthing about the future for Israel... The only future Israel has is to become Christians like the rest of the world, IMO.
Yeah. Thats what i believe
that they WILL turn to Jesus
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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Wish more people would get this.

I have heard people say that yeah the jews, they believe in the OT God, they just believe in the Father and dont know Jesus is the MEssiah yet.
Well NO they dont believe in any deity to begin with, lots of them.

I have also heard that they accept the OT and we lose them in matthew 1:1. But in reality we lose them at GENESIS, since many dont even believe in the literal creation story.

Regardless of all this, I still believe there is a future for Israel, according to the book of Romans, and the promises of God in the O.T. Israel has been in unbelief and idolatry before, this is nothing new. They have returned in the past, that is also nothing new!
They are G-d's chosen and He will cause them to accept Him as their savior before it is all concluded.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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I believe Psalm 73. I would rather suffer in this life and have God perfect, establish, strengthen, settle me in my trials (1 Peter 5:10) than revel in the corruption of this life (which lasts only for a moment when compared with the eternal life God has prepared for His children).


If you look at Psalm 73:17 you will see that David was envious at the foolish, when [he] saw the prosperity of the wicked (vs 3) only until he went into the sanctuary of God; then understood [he] their end.

And until we get to the point where we continuously look to the Lord Jesus Christ and keep our hearts turned toward Him, we will look at the wicked with the same mindset David did in Psalm 73:3-16.

And once we focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, we will come to the same conclusion David did in Psalm 73:18-28.





In your distraction with Psalm 73, I note you do not address the issue I pointed out to you.

In your post #169, you stated

"The wicked (non elect) are not chastened here on earth, but are judged at the last day."

I replied in post #176:

"Sodom and Gomorrah was not God's judgment on "wicked (non elect)"???
According to Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
Read Acts 12 and see what happened to Herod (vs 23 - And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost).
God judges the wicked in their lifetime on earth and they reap consequences for their behavior in rejecting God."

Since, as you claim, "all scriptures must harmonize", is it your belief that Sodom and Gomorrah was not God's chastening and/or judgment on the "wicked (non elect)"? And what about Acts 12:23? That was not chastening / judgment?

Lamentations 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment.


And despite your protestation, God continues to chasten the wicked in this lifetime.
God's people are so depraved by their sinful nature that sometimes it is hard to distinguish them from the wicked. In some scriptures God's people are referred to as the wicked. To me, there is a difference in God's chastening to correct his children and striking the wicked literally to death. I have no problem in believing that all scriptures must harmonize to be the doctrine that Jesus taught, and I do struggle to try to make them fit together. I hope that I am never guilty of ignoring a, seemingly, contradicting scripture, but study to match scripture to scripture to prove themselves, instead of relying upon the interpretations of men. I love forums like this to help us to study together in search of the true doctrine of Jesus. I lean towards Sodom and Gomorrah being the wicked that are not God's children. I believe that in Lamentations 4, it is talking about God's people, by the phrase "the daughter of my people". May the Lord bless you in your studies.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Since we are "all on this forum, I hope, to discuss the scriptures in an attempt to project what we think is the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught", then I believe we would all be better served in addressing the points made by those with whom we are discussing rather than engage in endless ad hominem attack.





When you engage in ad hominem attack, do you really believe you are praising and honoring God in giving Him total credit for eternal salvation?



Ephesians 4:

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Do you really believe that you are giving praise and honor to God by limiting his power in NOT giving him total credit for your eternal salvation, and taking credit yourself for your eternal salvation? I believe that, in your mind, that you have marked me as your enemy and are intent on replying to my comments negatively no matter what I say and that mindset is a sad way to discuss scriptures. I don't suppose you can see yourself in Ephesians 4:29-31, No! I did not think so.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
They are G-d's chosen and He will cause them to accept Him as their savior before it is all concluded.

I'll give God even more "credit" then that! God will "Place" these people in such place/s and circumstance/s, that they'll confess and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, while the individual is still trying to "process" just WTH is going on! ;)
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
What Bible text do you base your view on?

Dunno about Preston. But?

Proverbs 22
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Meaning, that although, the parents of the child may not know? And, the child may go off like the "prodigal son?"

God KNOWS! God CALLS! And KEEPS Calling! Until, He gets an answer! Yay? Or Nay?!?

Now, one may "attribute" this to the faith of the Parents? But, that would be putting God in a box, wouldn't it?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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I'll give God even more "credit" then that! God will "Place" these people in such place/s and circumstance/s, that they'll confess and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, while the individual is still trying to "process" just WTH is going on! ;)
You and Preston39, both should consider 1 Cor 2:14 to see what the capabilities of the natural man is. He cannot understand spiritual things until he has been regenerated and given the Holy Spirit. He cannot be placed in a position that will make him able to discern spiritual things. The power to have eternal life is credited totally on God's grace, without man's confessing and accepting. The natural man's new birth is explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5. When he was yet dead in sins.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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I lean towards Sodom and Gomorrah being the wicked that are not God's children. I believe that in Lamentations 4, it is talking about God's people, by the phrase "the daughter of my people".
I posted Lam 4:6 in response to your comment that "the wicked (non elect) are not chastened here on earth".

It is clear from Lam 4:6 that God punished "the wicked (non elect)" of Sodom, just as the record in Acts 12:23 reveals that Herod reaped the consequences of his rejection of God.

Not sure what you'll do with the information … my hope / prayer would be that you would reconsider your viewpoint that God does not chasten the unbeliever. God does chasten the unbeliever and I gave you a couple of examples.