Predestination Versus Freewill

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 17, 2017
6
0
0
#1
When I mention control over freewill I am talking about direct control rather secondary control, foreknowledge, or perfect knowledge of people.

God is in control of all creation
Man’s will is part of creation
God is in control of man’s will

God’s power is viewed as the origin of all behaviors, thoughts, and actions of man. People's thoughts were pre-programmed by God before humans were made. The evil and good thoughts and actions of humanity were orchestrated by God. His omnipotence is therefore sustained. But what about His Omnibenevolence?

Part 2: On the definition of God’s all powerful trait. Does this all powerfulness come from the conscious of God or does all powerfulness control everything without God’s consideration on the matter? All-powerfulness seems to be made out to be almost as self-governing entity rather than a trait of God. Someone might say: "traits are without consideration such as green eye color". Wrong. Jesus had the ability to stop or temporarily disable His own omniscience therefore why could he not do the same over human free will. When Jesus mentioned when the end would come He said in Matthew 24:36 , "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,” meaning God has the ability to disable or put a veil over His own omniscience, why not His own omnipotence.

Part 3: If God's omnipotence means He has control over everything, then He also has control over our wills as well and therefore when a person commits murder or rape we are then subscribing murder and rape as an action of God indirectly.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
4,870
395
83
#2
...

Part 3: If God's omnipotence means He has control over everything, then He also has control over our wills as well and therefore when a person commits murder or rape we are then subscribing murder and rape as an action of God indirectly.
To part 3, in a word, No. Wrong understanding.
 
S

Sully

Guest
#3
All-powerfulness seems to be made out to be almost as self-governing entity rather than a trait of God.
Is this your opinion or an observational theory that is your opinion?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,768
76
48
#4
(Deu 30:19 KJV) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
8,388
196
63
#5
You have to go back to the very beginning. The thing about God's sovereign will is that He generally chooses not to enforce it Himself. God created creation, and He was in charge of it. God created man, and yielded His sovereignty to give man authority over creation. You, Adam, are the authority. So Adam then gives that away to satan. God could have, in His sovereign power, taken it all back. But then that would put Him in authority, and that wasn't what He wanted. His intent/will was for man to have authority.

So to restore what God intended/willed meant a man had to take authority back from satan. But what man could do such a thing? Well, only God, coming to us as a man. So the Christ comes and indeed takes back authority. But He has not returned to enforce it. Power in the heavenlies is His, but satan still runs the terra firma. That's where our 'free will' comes in. It's God's sovereign will that we choose to participate with Him in the enforcement of His authority over creation.

I liken it as to a Sheriff. The sheriff holds the authority, but he doesn't patrol the streets chasing down perps. He has deputies who enforce his authority for him. But the Deputies actually have no authority of their own. Christ is our sheriff, we are his deputies, charged to enforce His Will in a land run by satan until He returns.

God yields his will to give us the authority to participate in bringing His Will to bear in this world.
 
Feb 18, 2017
779
12
0
#6
Is this your opinion or an observational theory that is your opinion?
I had to read his comment and your comment 100 times to understand each one. Gosh, being stupid is bliss!

Edit. Great question. Like to see the answer to it.
 
S

Sully

Guest
#7
Lol, i could've made my question more understandable had I stopped at just "theory" but the edit timer went out on me...agree stupid is blissful, hope i'm not predestined for more stupidity.
 
Mar 17, 2017
6
0
0
#8
Well lets consider it more closely. I love to follow Socrates style of dissecting an issue. We need to understand what omnipotence, control, and freewill all mean.

Part 1:Omnipotence - All powerful. Are their any exceptions or any domains in which God's power cannot reach? No. Does that mean God is have control over everything? Yes. Although He has power in all areas, can He willingly choose not to use His power and allow something to run on its own? Yes.

The hardest question to answer is can God stop His own omnipotence. We say that Jesus put a veil over His God traits, but what does that mean and say about how we define God. Maybe, since our God is trinity, God is always in power because the Father is still in control. If all Three of the Trinity left their positions of power, then maybe it would questionable, but knowing that God works in three in one we have to take that into consideration.

Part 2: Control- the power to direct people's behavior or the course of events. I see John Calvin's point about our freewill. The idea of a person performing and action out of the control of God would seem to compromise His omnipotence. But to reverse the idea; the power to not control the wills of people would be just as compromising on His omnipotence as the first position.

Part 3:Freewill-
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. This concept may be were all the holes lie. We know God knows all things. But does He make them happen before we see them happen? No. I have heard some say that God knows all that He created so well and so that is where is omniscience comes from. It Is not a power or a trait He has no control of. It is just He is an expert in the field of everything that is.

And I am super sorry for not using Scripture, but using human definitions to explain what is outside human understanding.
Colossians 2:7-8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
 
Last edited:

StanJ

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
812
7
0
#9
@Matt23
I'm not really clear on what you're looking for here. Predestination is clearly spelled out in the New Testament and how it impacts our lives. Rom 8:28-30
Freewill is obvious everytime we are told to obey or repent.
 
S

Sully

Guest
#10
You can't make this argument without a lot of critical assumptions. The irony is there is not enough information to enlighten an accurate rock solid answer, so all you can do is reach a certain point and assume the rest. Can God create an object so heavy that He cannot lift it? Sure, but He is too wise to do so unless He wants a permanent monument. Either way He is right.
 
Mar 17, 2017
6
0
0
#11
I think your right. When we say "does God have the power to...," we are setting up a false dichotomy. As if omnipotence exist on its own, almost like a mechanized attribute.
 
Feb 18, 2017
779
12
0
#12
When I mention control over freewill I am talking about direct control rather secondary control, foreknowledge, or perfect knowledge of people.

God is in control of all creation
Man’s will is part of creation
God is in control of man’s will

God’s power is viewed as the origin of all behaviors, thoughts, and actions of man. People's thoughts were pre-programmed by God before humans were made. The evil and good thoughts and actions of humanity were orchestrated by God. His omnipotence is therefore sustained. But what about His Omnibenevolence?

Part 2: On the definition of God’s all powerful trait. Does this all powerfulness come from the conscious of God or does all powerfulness control everything without God’s consideration on the matter? All-powerfulness seems to be made out to be almost as self-governing entity rather than a trait of God. Someone might say: "traits are without consideration such as green eye color". Wrong. Jesus had the ability to stop or temporarily disable His own omniscience therefore why could he not do the same over human free will. When Jesus mentioned when the end would come He said in Matthew 24:36 , "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,” meaning God has the ability to disable or put a veil over His own omniscience, why not His own omnipotence.

Part 3: If God's omnipotence means He has control over everything, then He also has control over our wills as well and therefore when a person commits murder or rape we are then subscribing murder and rape as an action of God indirectly.
I am a cut to the chase kinda of guy.

Predestination has nothing to do with our freewill.

Predestination is for believer's only......who use their freewill to believe and the Justice of God saves us the moment we believe. Because the Sovereignty of God set up the way to salvation. A pre-designed plan.

Predestination is everything a believer who FREELY chooses Christ is predestined to get at salvation.....Adoption,indwelling,sealing,Holy Spirit baptism,Grace gifts, And many more.
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
480
83
Philly, PA, USA
#13
When I mention control over freewill I am talking about direct control rather secondary control, foreknowledge, or perfect knowledge of people.

God is in control of all creation
Man’s will is part of creation
God is in control of man’s will

God’s power is viewed as the origin of all behaviors, thoughts, and actions of man. People's thoughts were pre-programmed by God before humans were made. The evil and good thoughts and actions of humanity were orchestrated by God. His omnipotence is therefore sustained. But what about His Omnibenevolence?

Part 2: On the definition of God’s all powerful trait. Does this all powerfulness come from the conscious of God or does all powerfulness control everything without God’s consideration on the matter? All-powerfulness seems to be made out to be almost as self-governing entity rather than a trait of God. Someone might say: "traits are without consideration such as green eye color". Wrong. Jesus had the ability to stop or temporarily disable His own omniscience therefore why could he not do the same over human free will. When Jesus mentioned when the end would come He said in Matthew 24:36 , "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,” meaning God has the ability to disable or put a veil over His own omniscience, why not His own omnipotence.

Part 3: If God's omnipotence means He has control over everything, then He also has control over our wills as well and therefore when a person commits murder or rape we are then subscribing murder and rape as an action of God indirectly.
Honestly, have two problems with this:
1. The font is even dinker that average. Is there some particular reason you want only people with superior eyesight to read what you write? (My eyesight is inferior.)
2. What was Part 1?
 
Mar 17, 2017
6
0
0
#14
I will take into consideration all people's eye sight next time. I am sorry. Part 1 was taken out because it was too offensive to a particular denomination, so I left it out.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,948
59
48
#15
Romans 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

He God, predestines, He calls, He justifies, He glorifies, according to His will

Ephesians 1:5, 11 "
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.....
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will"

2 Timothy 1:9 "
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity"

 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
23,391
1,335
113
#16
God’s power is viewed as the origin of all behaviors, thoughts, and actions of man.
Do you leave sin and Satan out of the equation? It seems a huge error to do so. God being omniscient does not mean He dictates all events. Any one person's life can be looked at as like a chess game, where there are only so many possible moves to begin with, and each move eliminates options. God knowing all the moves does not mean He is forcing His will on you. God's will can be broken down into at least three modes for clearer understanding: 1) God's will is sovereign. He will do as He pleases. 2) God's will is moral. This is revealed through His character and the commandments, the principles by which He desires us to live. Quite frankly I find the belief that it is God's will every time someone is raped or murdered, quite repugnant. Some people actually believe that. 3) God's will is permissive. He allows us to choose. We are exhorted to choose wisely. Who is the source of wisdom? :)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
12,519
388
83
#17
The understanding, only a determination for now, that I have is that we are foreknown when we repent and come to the feet of our Lord's ccross. The Father preknows each of us withing our walk in this age. If we were saved when we were bron we would not need to be born here in this vally of tears.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
2,871
174
63
#18
When I mention control over freewill I am talking about direct control rather secondary control, foreknowledge, or perfect knowledge of people.

God is in control of all creation
Man’s will is part of creation
God is in control of man’s will

God’s power is viewed as the origin of all behaviors, thoughts, and actions of man. People's thoughts were pre-programmed by God before humans were made. The evil and good thoughts and actions of humanity were orchestrated by God. His omnipotence is therefore sustained. But what about His Omnibenevolence?

Part 2: On the definition of God’s all powerful trait. Does this all powerfulness come from the conscious of God or does all powerfulness control everything without God’s consideration on the matter? All-powerfulness seems to be made out to be almost as self-governing entity rather than a trait of God. Someone might say: "traits are without consideration such as green eye color". Wrong. Jesus had the ability to stop or temporarily disable His own omniscience therefore why could he not do the same over human free will. When Jesus mentioned when the end would come He said in Matthew 24:36 , "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,” meaning God has the ability to disable or put a veil over His own omniscience, why not His own omnipotence.

Part 3: If God's omnipotence means He has control over everything, then He also has control over our wills as well and therefore when a person commits murder or rape we are then subscribing murder and rape as an action of God indirectly.
It is not predestination vs freewill..

It's Gods predestination derived from His foreknowledge of our freewill response to His will..
[h=2][/h]
 
S

Sully

Guest
#19
I am a cut to the chase kinda of guy.

Predestination has nothing to do with our freewill.

Predestination is for believer's only......who use their freewill to believe and the Justice of God saves us the moment we believe. Because the Sovereignty of God set up the way to salvation. A pre-designed plan.

Predestination is everything a believer who FREELY chooses Christ is predestined to get at salvation.....Adoption,indwelling,sealing,Holy Spirit baptism,Grace gifts, And many more.
I think you're right. The OP seemed to suggest predestination is a predefined program we all have. I could be wrong in the interpretation, being a Neitherist I like to talk about it.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
8,388
196
63
#20
If I may diverge a minute, what is a Neitherist?