Predestination Versus Freewill
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Foreknowledge. God is omniscient, thus there was never truly a fore- before his knowledge.
Predestination. God chose some and he didn't choose some.
Free will? Can't find that in the Bible since Adam okey-dokeyed Eve with the peach. (Since Adam ate the fruit. Personal opinion that the fruit was a peach. I've always maintained you can't tempt me with an apple, but you can with a peach. lol)
How I understand those three words you chose.
Predestination. God chose some and he didn't choose some.
Free will? Can't find that in the Bible since Adam okey-dokeyed Eve with the peach. (Since Adam ate the fruit. Personal opinion that the fruit was a peach. I've always maintained you can't tempt me with an apple, but you can with a peach. lol)
How I understand those three words you chose.
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Yay!!! Finally. This is what I was asking. THIS is what you believe. Okay, works for me.
I just want you to understand one thing about Calvinists. Another word for who we are is "Puritans." Have you ever read something from a Puritan? We have two things going for us--
1. We don't do one-verses. We just don't. It kills context way too much.
2. We also don't explain in short. (Thus "long involved affairs.")
With that, I hope you at least understand why I gave you Romans 1-12. Romans 9 is merely the climax of a very long discussion of why it is all God, and done in grand style by Paul. He would have been a Puritan if he had time to write more and was born a mere 1500 years later. lol
But you did give me what I wanted to know, so thank you. You're not an IDKist.
I just want you to understand one thing about Calvinists. Another word for who we are is "Puritans." Have you ever read something from a Puritan? We have two things going for us--
1. We don't do one-verses. We just don't. It kills context way too much.
2. We also don't explain in short. (Thus "long involved affairs.")
With that, I hope you at least understand why I gave you Romans 1-12. Romans 9 is merely the climax of a very long discussion of why it is all God, and done in grand style by Paul. He would have been a Puritan if he had time to write more and was born a mere 1500 years later. lol
But you did give me what I wanted to know, so thank you. You're not an IDKist.
D
Another cup indeed 
I guess I miss things like this because I don't study 'doctrines'.
But that webpage makes some interesting points. I don't believe them all, but interesting points none the less.
I guess I miss things like this because I don't study 'doctrines'.
But that webpage makes some interesting points. I don't believe them all, but interesting points none the less.
D
Sorta like trying to define "Presbyterian" or "Baptists." Denominationally, we know where our roots were, but through the centuries both words have lost so much meaning because so many have claimed the titles minus original beliefs.
Here's a few splits in my denomination (Presbyterian/Calvinist.)
-- 5 points vs. 4 points vs. 3 points vs. pointless.
-- No woman elders to woman elders to woman deaconess. (Elders is our word for pastors... sort of.)
-- No homosexual elders to homosexual elders to homosexual congregations.
-- God centered to humanistic centered (God no longer required.)
It gets kind of mixed up in mid levels most of the time, but five points (TULIP) is the defining doctrine of Calvinists. Anything less isn't.
Does that mean we can't be saved if we don't believe in TULIP? Nah! I didn't believe it for at least a decade and took me another whole decade before I believed it all. Still, I was saved way before I even knew TULIP meant something besides a spring flower.
I will forever believe that it is easier on us once we get that God is completely sovereign and salvation was his doing, with no input from us.
But then again, I've been a believer for 45 years now, and I'm just beginning to get it is easier to go where God is sending me by ship rather than fish stomach. (I most relate to Jonah.) Soooo, easy isn't always the way we choose, and yet God gets us where he's taking us no matter if we kick and scream or get enthusiastically lock-stepped with him. lol
Here's a few splits in my denomination (Presbyterian/Calvinist.)
-- 5 points vs. 4 points vs. 3 points vs. pointless.
-- No woman elders to woman elders to woman deaconess. (Elders is our word for pastors... sort of.)
-- No homosexual elders to homosexual elders to homosexual congregations.
-- God centered to humanistic centered (God no longer required.)
It gets kind of mixed up in mid levels most of the time, but five points (TULIP) is the defining doctrine of Calvinists. Anything less isn't.
Does that mean we can't be saved if we don't believe in TULIP? Nah! I didn't believe it for at least a decade and took me another whole decade before I believed it all. Still, I was saved way before I even knew TULIP meant something besides a spring flower.
I will forever believe that it is easier on us once we get that God is completely sovereign and salvation was his doing, with no input from us.
But then again, I've been a believer for 45 years now, and I'm just beginning to get it is easier to go where God is sending me by ship rather than fish stomach. (I most relate to Jonah.) Soooo, easy isn't always the way we choose, and yet God gets us where he's taking us no matter if we kick and scream or get enthusiastically lock-stepped with him. lol
D
Just break out the TULIPs you know you want to...
I also cannot memorize TULIP. I can average 3-4 of them on any given day, but can only guarantee T is right.
I've got bupkis talent for memorizing anything. lol
(If we every argue TULIP, guaranteed I have a page running in the background to refresh my memory of what each letter stands for.
)I went full bore in the reformed camp. I was stuck there and embedded. So I have long studied the reformed side.
On the surface of TULIP it isn't all bad, seems good and sounds good. But if one carries each letter out, and studies it to it's logical end. I reject every letter of TULIP and how they are taught in todays reformed churches.
To keep it simple. Everything hinges on their interpretation of predestination and election. so every letter in TULIP needs to be conformed to fit their idea of predestination and election
take total depravity for instance. On the surface, yes. Who would not agree with that? BUT, they are saying total inability to CHOOSE God. God hasn't helped mankind at all. And if a man was drowning and a life preserver was thrown to him,man doesn't have the capacity to grab it and be saved.
And this Total inability to choose God is To protect their sacred cow of election and predestination.
And yes, predestination and election are in the Bible. But neither is salvation. Predestination and election are privileges for believers only, and come AFTER we believe.
I finally found my right pastor teacher and started to learn Grace. What a relief. When I was neck deep in reformed theology I always had an uneasy feeling that the pastor would never talk about predestination to us in Church like he would to us men in a closed room during bible study.
On the surface of TULIP it isn't all bad, seems good and sounds good. But if one carries each letter out, and studies it to it's logical end. I reject every letter of TULIP and how they are taught in todays reformed churches.
To keep it simple. Everything hinges on their interpretation of predestination and election. so every letter in TULIP needs to be conformed to fit their idea of predestination and election
take total depravity for instance. On the surface, yes. Who would not agree with that? BUT, they are saying total inability to CHOOSE God. God hasn't helped mankind at all. And if a man was drowning and a life preserver was thrown to him,man doesn't have the capacity to grab it and be saved.
And this Total inability to choose God is To protect their sacred cow of election and predestination.
And yes, predestination and election are in the Bible. But neither is salvation. Predestination and election are privileges for believers only, and come AFTER we believe.
I finally found my right pastor teacher and started to learn Grace. What a relief. When I was neck deep in reformed theology I always had an uneasy feeling that the pastor would never talk about predestination to us in Church like he would to us men in a closed room during bible study.
S
TULIP is like non-Catholic Ten Commandments. I learned my Ten Commandments in parochial school. They have a different version than any other. I was born again when I was 16 but have never been able to memorize the non-Catholic Ten Commandments since.
I also cannot memorize TULIP. I can average 3-4 of them on any given day, but can only guarantee T is right.
I've got bupkis talent for memorizing anything. lol
(If we every argue TULIP, guaranteed I have a page running in the background to refresh my memory of what each letter stands for.)
I also cannot memorize TULIP. I can average 3-4 of them on any given day, but can only guarantee T is right.
I've got bupkis talent for memorizing anything. lol
(If we every argue TULIP, guaranteed I have a page running in the background to refresh my memory of what each letter stands for.
)
