Predestination

[sandstorm7]

Ephesians 1:11 says: "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"

This, as well as Romans 9: 1-29 on God's Sovereign Choice, show's that God selected those who would be saved even before creation. Does that mean he chose those who would be condemned as well?

I find it difficult to swallow that God chose only some to be saved. What about everyone else?

I know that we share the gospel so that the elect might hear it and recieve it, but what of those that contunually reject it? What of those that are never going to be saved? It makes it hard for me to understand the point of praying for people to be saved if God already has a plan for them and His will will be done. It's not like we can change the will of God.

Also... what about the mentally challenged? The unborn that die? The babies? Are they saved?

I just find it hard to fully grasp some of this. As some of you know, I am relatively new to the faith and still have many many questions about everything. The pastor at my church this week did a sermon on this but it only left me with more questions. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

For now, I'll only address a few things

It makes it hard for me to understand the point of praying for people to be saved if God already has a plan for them and His will will be done. It's not like we can change the will of God.

On the contrary, if it's man's "free choice" to be saved and not Gods, then you praying for people to be saved is what doesn't make any sense.

After all, it's not like God is going to zap them and make them choose him, right? So why pray to God for someone's salvation since God simply leaves the ball in their court?

On the other hand, if you know that God holds a persons heart in his hand and can direct it wherever he chooses, then it makes sense to pray to God for persons to be saved because you know that He can make the unwilling sinner willing.

Also... what about the mentally challenged? The unborn that die? The babies? Are they saved?

This isn't a question specific to predestination. It can be addressed to any Christian who thinks faith is the precondition to salvation.

If salvation comes by grace through faith, what about those who can't seem to have faith (babies, mentally challenged, etc)?

The same answer that a non-predestinarian (or Calvinist) gives can be given by someone who affirms predestination (or Calvinism)

The answer is usually that God will not punish persons who do not have the cognitive capacity to recognize their sin.

So babies and the mentally challenged, if they are so challenged that they cannot cognitively grasp their sinful state and need of a savior, do not go to hell.

 

[sandstorm7]

On the contrary, if it's man's "free choice" to be saved and not Gods, then you praying for people to be saved is what doesn't make any sense.

After all, it's not like God is going to zap them and make them choose him, right? So why pray to God for someone's salvation since God simply leaves the ball in their court?

On the other hand, if you know that God holds a persons heart in his hand and can direct it wherever he chooses, then it makes sense to pray to God for persons to be saved because you know that He can make the unwilling sinner willing.

I know that God can direct a persons heart wherever He chooses and I know that He can make the unwilling sinner willing... but my question is more that if He already has all of that chosen and knows when and how that person will be saved, what's the point of praying for someone's salvation?

I've been praying so hard for my younger brother to be saved, I've been sharing the gospel with him, witnessing to him... but after learning that God chooses those who are saved and those who are not even before creation, what is my praying going to do? It's all planned already. I am obviously not going to cease teaching my brother about the word of God, because God may very well be using me to help my brother open his heart to the Lord... but what are my prayers doing if everything is already planned?

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I know that God can direct a persons heart wherever He chooses and I know that He can make the unwilling sinner willing... but my question is more that if He already has all of that chosen and knows when and how that person will be saved, what's the point of praying for someone's salvation?

I've been praying so hard for my younger brother to be saved, I've been sharing the gospel with him, witnessing to him... but after learning that God chooses those who are saved and those who are not even before creation, what is my praying going to do? It's all planned already. I am obviously not going to cease teaching my brother about the word of God, because God may very well be using me to help my brother open his heart to the Lord... but what are my prayers doing if everything is already planned?

Because God's predestination or foreordination or eternal decree or whatever you want to call it isn't like a Greek fatalism where God just predestines the end without any regard to the means to that end.

Prayer and our witness and other circumstances play a role in God's eternal plan. Your prayers for a person's salvation may be a means to that person's salvation.

If God has elected certain persons to be saved, we don't know who those persons are. So we pray for those persons hoping that God will hear our prayer and act upon it to fulfill his eternal purpose.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

Think of it this way.

God doesn't need us to go out and personally witness to people does he? God could personally appear to each person or he write the gospel on every rock. Or God could just use angels. After all, wouldn't that be quicker? I mean there are still people out there that have never heard the gospel, but if he just used angels we could solve that problem immediately.

Nevertheless, God delights to use the means he has chosen to achieve the ends he has chosen. We don't always know why he chooses to accomplish his purposes in the manner he does, but he does... For some reason God wants us to go out and spread the command for all men everywhere to repent and believe. For some reason God wants us to offer up prayers, even though he knows beforehand what they will be.

 

[loveschild]

Free will. God would love for everyone to come to him. But he won't force them. Everyone will have a chance. Its simply yes or no.

God knows if people have mental problems he won't punish them for that. Babies being aborted have angels right there who catch their souls as soon as they come out and take them to heaven and the baby is reborn in heaven.

The only people who will go to hell is ones who wanted to keep doing evil. The ones who were told and knew they should follow God but would not.

 

[sandstorm7]

Think of it this way.

God doesn't need us to go out and personally witness to people does he? God could personally appear to each person or he write the gospel on every rock. Or God could just use angels. After all, wouldn't that be quicker? I mean there are still people out there that have never heard the gospel, but if he just used angels we could solve that problem immediately.

Nevertheless, God delights to use the means he has chosen to achieve the ends he has chosen. We don't always know why he chooses to accomplish his purposes in the manner he does, but he does... For some reason God wants us to go out and spread the command for all men everywhere to repent and believe. For some reason God wants us to offer up prayers, even though he knows beforehand what they will be.

I do understand that God uses us to spread the gospel and share our witness to unbelievers. I just struggle to understand the importance of prayer in this situation if God has it "set in stone" already. It's not like continuously praying for someone's salvation is going to change God's mind, right? I'm sorry for all of the questions, I just really can't understand.

 

[sandstorm7]

Free will. God would love for everyone to come to him. But he won't force them. Everyone will have a chance. Its simply yes or no.

That was something brought up in the service I went to, it was a Q&A type sermon. Yes, we do have free will. But not when it comes to salvation. What I mean is, GOD is the one that chooses to open our hearts to Him... God may choose to work through another believer, but it is all because of Him. If a person is saved, it's not just because they chose to be saved, it's because it was God's plan all along. That person was elected by God even before they existed. Is my understanding correct?

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I do understand that God uses us to spread the gospel and share our witness to unbelievers. I just struggle to understand the importance of prayer in this situation if God has it "set in stone" already. It's not like continuously praying for someone's salvation is going to change God's mind, right? I'm sorry for all of the questions, I just really can't understand.

I think what I said explains why we would still pray for people: God has ordained it as a part of the means to accomplish his ends.

That seems like a perfectly logical reason to pray. Likewise, why should we go witness to people? Because God has ordained it as a part of the means to accomplish his ends.

Now we may not understand why God has chosen to do things in this particular way... but again, that's not a problem specific to predestination. It's something that every Christian (who affirms God's foreknowledge) has to answer.

If God knows what we will ask before we ask it (Mat. 6:8), why has he chosen to have us have any prayer?

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

That was something brought up in the service I went to, it was a Q&A type sermon. Yes, we do have free will. But not when it comes to salvation. What I mean is, GOD is the one that chooses to open our hearts to Him... God may choose to work through another believer, but it is all because of Him. If a person is saved, it's not just because they chose to be saved, it's because it was God's plan all along. That person was elected by God even before they existed. Is my understanding correct?

In regards to the question of free will, you might want to read what I said here: http://christianchat.com/christian-young-adults-forum/12223-does-god-know-future-3.html (starting in post 52) though it was a long conversation.

(Not that anything I say is worth reading, but I tried to lay it out as with some small degree of detail and clarity.)

 

[sandstorm7]

In regards to the question of free will, you might want to read what I said here: http://christianchat.com/christian-young-adults-forum/12223-does-god-know-future-3.html (starting in post 52) though it was a long conversation.

(Not that anything I say is worth reading, but I tried to lay it out as with some small degree of detail and clarity.)

I read your post. Is it safe to say that we have free will regarding human things- decisions we make, actions we take etc. but regarding God's will (i.e. salvation for us) we have none? God knows what decisions we will make and what actions we will take, but that does not mean we don't have a choice. He just knows the result of that choice- He knows what we decide even before we decide it; it doesn't mean that what we decide is His will for us. So we do have free will.

But when it comes to matters of the heart, such as whether we will be opened to God's truth and be saved or not, God has elected us. Obviously to be saved you must have faith, believe, and make the decision to come to Christ.. but that decision was already made for us by God. It is His will that we make that decision, and so it is done. And because of that, we don't really have free will in that matter even though it may seem that we do. That decision was made by us, yes, but it was made by God first. And it was through Him that we even came to that decision to accept Christ in the first place.

I feel like I'm confusing myself even more. Does anyone ever achieve clarity in these matters? Or is it just too hard to comprehend?

 

[phil36]

I read your post. Is it safe to say that we have free will regarding human things- decisions we make, actions we take etc. but regarding God's will (i.e. salvation for us) we have none? God knows what decisions we will make and what actions we will take, but that does not mean we don't have a choice. He just knows the result of that choice- He knows what we decide even before we decide it; it doesn't mean that what we decide is His will for us. So we do have free will.

But when it comes to matters of the heart, such as whether we will be opened to God's truth and be saved or not, God has elected us. Obviously to be saved you must have faith, believe, and make the decision to come to Christ.. but that decision was already made for us by God. It is His will that we make that decision, and so it is done. And because of that, we don't really have free will in that matter even though it may seem that we do. That decision was made by us, yes, but it was made by God first. And it was through Him that we even came to that decision to accept Christ in the first place.

I feel like I'm confusing myself even more. Does anyone ever achieve clarity in these matters? Or is it just too hard to comprehend?

I don't think we will ever fully comprehend the things of God. What might help is that, before you were saved you were a slave to sin, to evil. so when you look at it that way how can you be totally free, ie have free will, as every thought will be inclined to your sinful nature through pride etc.

It is God who has to change that nature, we can't, God makes us a new creation.

we where slaves to sin.... now we are slaves to Christ, a new nature (heart), a new creation.

I am just so humbled to think that God in His mercy would save any, the wages of sin are death.

Check out Mark Driscoll's series on Doctrine-- its was these sermons that are now in the book form. website here:: Mars Hill Church


Blessings

Phil

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I read your post. Is it safe to say that we have free will regarding human things- decisions we make, actions we take etc. but regarding God's will (i.e. salvation for us) we have none? God knows what decisions we will make and what actions we will take, but that does not mean we don't have a choice. He just knows the result of that choice- He knows what we decide even before we decide it; it doesn't mean that what we decide is His will for us. So we do have free will.

But when it comes to matters of the heart, such as whether we will be opened to God's truth and be saved or not, God has elected us. Obviously to be saved you must have faith, believe, and make the decision to come to Christ.. but that decision was already made for us by God. It is His will that we make that decision, and so it is done. And because of that, we don't really have free will in that matter even though it may seem that we do. That decision was made by us, yes, but it was made by God first. And it was through Him that we even came to that decision to accept Christ in the first place.

I feel like I'm confusing myself even more. Does anyone ever achieve clarity in these matters? Or is it just too hard to comprehend?

I didn't mean that one post, but that's fine, I wouldn't want to read all those posts either.

Specifically, in relation to fee will regarding human things and salvation see post # 60, 65, and 69.

I wouldn't say the decision was made for us by God. It was our decision, but God enabled us to make it through regeneration. We do have free will, in a sense...

Edit: You could actually skip 60 and just see 65 I guess.

 

[sandstorm7]

I haven't read those posts yet Credo, but I do have another question.

I was speaking to another friend about this topic, and he said that he believes the election doctrine is wrong. He said that, by believing it, we say that we have no free will and can live how we want because we ultimately have no control over it. He said that it means God essentially sends people to hell with no chance of salvation and that Jesus died for some but not all.

Now, I do not necessarily believe what he said, but I want to offer some sort of explanation to him. I do admit that this is a very difficult topic to understand and, when the pastor covered this topic in his sermon, there was a lot of similar questions that were asked. How do we answer them?

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I'm off to work for a few hours (underwater basket weaving always beckons...). But I'll try to answer your questions when I get back. However, I think the posts I mentioned might clear up some of the questions you raise.

 

[mpaper345]

A lot of people misinterpret what the Bible means when God says He predestined us to salvation.

The Bible clearly states that it is the decision of the person if they want to believe or not.

The Bible says that whosoever will can be saved.

The Bible says all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Bible says that Jesus lights every person that is born in this world which means everybody has a chance to see the truth and be saved.

God is not a cruel God and does not pick who will be saved and who will be condemned before they are born because that would mean God is condemning people and God would not condemn people.How can God say He is loving if He condemns some people before they have a chance to decide for themself if they believe the truth or not.

The Bible says that God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.If it is a plan of God in His mind to happen in the future it is the same as if it already happened.

The Bible says that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although we know that it did not happen until 4000 years later.

Even though the Lamb was not slain until 4000 years after the creation,it was a plan of God in His mind in the beginning to be slain in the future,so it is the same as if the Lamb had already been slain in the beginning,because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.

God already had the plan in His mind to give us salvation and the coming of Christ giving us His human body before He created mankind.

God had the plan in His mind to give mankind salvation before He created anything,so it is the same as if mankind already had that salvation,because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened,and that plan of salvation is to mankind in general,whoever wants that salvation.

The Bible states that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance,so God does not decide who will saved but it is up to people to decide whether they believe or not.

The Bible clearly states that God has given the choice to mankind to decide whether they believe or not.

The purpose of God creating mankind is to have people dwell with Him for all eternity,that made the choice to live for God,for then it is true love.

God's creation is based on true love.God wants people to choose Him for then it is true love.

If God picks who will be saved then it is not true love but robotic love,they would only be on God's side because they have no choice but to be on God's side.

God does choose a person after they have made the choice to live for God and do right.

God's creation is based on true love,so it is up to the individual to decide whether they believe or not.

If God did not choose people before they are born to make the decision for themselves then God would be a cruel God which God is not a cruel God but a loving God.

To say that God does not choose some people before they have a choice to decide whether to believe or not would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit for they are calling God cruel when God is loving.

It is up to the person to decide whether they want to believe or not because God's creation is based on true love.

God had the plan in His mind to give salvation to mankind before He created anything so it was the same as if they already had salvation in the beginning because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened,and that salvation is to mankind in general,whosoever wants to be saved.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Predestination means that God had the plan in His mind to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it was the same as if mankind already had that salvation,and that salvation is to whoever wants to be saved.

It is up to the individual to decide whether they believe or not because God's creation is based on true love and God does not condemn anybody.

Matt

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

He said that, by believing it, we say that we have no free will...

The first thing I would want to do if someone is going to say "x negates free will (FW)" is to get a clear understanding of what FW is. It's generally useless to debate something that hasn't been defined.

Free will is especially susceptible to useless debate because most people just assume that everyone knows what we mean when we talk about free will. After all, it's an extremely popular dramatic device in movies, books, and games.

However, studies have been done that demonstrate that there is, unfortunately, no universal (or common sense) concept of "free will." In an article called "Folk Intuitions on Free Will" (for the Journal of Cognition & Culture 6.1/2 (2006)), for example, Shaun Nichols demonstrated that not only is there no universal intuition regarding free will, but peoples own intuitions regarding free will are usually contradictory under certain conditions!

Needless to say, this adds to the difficulty when trying to discuss this topic, which is already deep and complex enough on its own.

Furthermore, people usually hate discussing it because it's a philosophical concept, which Scripture doesn't speak a lot about. There is no verse in the Bible that says (at least not explicitly) that we have free will or that we don't have free will. Neither is there a verse in the Bible that defines free will.

So let me offer a simple definition and you can see if your friend agrees with it (90% of the time, when someone has never considered it before, persons usually try to define FW as making choices. This is a very bad definition, but I wont get into why unless necessary).

Let's say then that a person has FW when he is able to choose or act according to his strongest inclination (or desire), and is free of external constraints (like coercion) and abnormal internal constraints.

Some might want to add more to that definition, but we'll leave it as is for now.

I would present this to your friend and ask if he agrees. If so, then he should agree that predestination (or election) does not take away free will when understood in its broader theological context.

How so? Because the unregenerate man (the unsaved man) can still make whichever choice or perform whichever action he desires (all things being equal). It simply happens to be the case that the unregenerate man (if that term isn't clear let me know) will never, in his unregenerate state, desire to submit himself to God.

In other words, we may say that it is not within his range of choices because it is not within his range of desires. For example, we might say that right now it is not within my range of choices to select chopping of my hand right now, because it doesn't register anywhere on my range of desires.

Naturally, this doesn't mean the unregenerate man lacks FW, in regards to anything, since he is still free to choose those things which are in his range of desires. Namely, in this case, to continue in rebellion against God.

So then, election does not take away FW. It simply broadens (through regeneration) the range of desires that the elect person has.

...and can live how we want because we ultimately have no control over it.

As far as having no control over "it," what exactly does "it" refer to? The idea strikes me as contradictory. If we have no control over "it" then how can we live however we want (assuming "it" refers to our life)? If we truly have no control over our life, then it is not the case that we can live however we want.

Perhaps the objection can be clarified?

He said that it means God essentially sends people to hell with no chance of salvation

I'm not sure what this objection is supposed to accomplish. Ask him to consider, for sake of argument, that God did not give some persons the chance for salvation. Would God thereby be unjust? Of course not. It's not as though God owes everyone a shot at salvation. Recall that within the broader theological context, those persons don't even want a chance at salvation, outside of a renewing work of God.

I suppose the objection then is an appeal to pity: how dreadful that God isn't an equal opportunist. But in the end we must be guided by Scripture, not emotion. And it seems clear from Scripture that some people are graciously given opportunities that others are not given. Take for instance Matthew 11:20-21, which I mentioned on the other thread. The passage informs us that Jesus knew that if he had performed the same miracles in Tyre and Sidon that he performed in Korazin and Bethsaida, Tyre and Sidon would have repented. But he didn't perform those miracles in Tyre and Sidon, even though he could have. So here is one clear example of one group of people receiving an opportunity to repent that another group did not receive. Furthermore, we know that if this group that did not receive the opportunity had received the opportunity they would have capitalized on it.

...and that Jesus died for some but not all.

This turns on the nature of Christ's atonement. This is usually cast in the following terms: is Christ's work on the cross limited in its efficacy (in its effectiveness), but unlimited in its scope? Or, is Christ's work on the cross limited in its scope, but fully efficacious?

I'm not going to lay out an argument here, but notice that either option can be cast as having negative consequences.

For example, if we say it is limited in its scope then we may here someone object "So Jesus may not have died for my uncle?!" But if we say it is limited in its efficacy then we may here someone object "So Jesus is a failure?! He intended to save my uncle, but couldn't pull it off?!"

Again, it's something that needs to be settled via Scripture. If you're looking for some Scriptural arguments you might want to try James White's book, The Potter's Freedom.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

The Bible clearly states that it is the decision of the person if they want to believe or not.

I agree that we make the decision. We are the ones who have faith and we are the ones who believe. This doesn't rule out predestination. For instance, we could just say God predestined us to believe and to make a decision.

The Bible says that whosoever will can be saved.

I don't know where the Bible says this and I don't think it even makes sense. Whosoever will can…?

It looks like you are completely misunderstanding what the phrase "whosoever will" means.

Let's put it in a different sentence and see what if it means what you seem to be suggesting:

"Whosoever will jump over the moon can have my dog."

Does this all persons are capable of jumping over the moon? No….

The sentence just means that if a person can jump over the moon they can have my dog. It doesn't say all men are capable of jumping over the moon. It simply specifies that there is no person-specific qualification, outside of jumping over the moon.

So what exactly do you mean by the phrase "Whosoever will can…"? I guess you mean "whosoever wants" or "whosoever desires"?

If that's the case, then I agree. Anyone who desires to be saved can be saved. But Scripture seems to be pretty clear that none are willing to come without the special work of God (John 6:44).

The Bible says all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Again, this is true, but won't help us resolve the dispute.

The Bible says that Jesus lights every person that is born in this world which means everybody has a chance to see the truth and be saved.

The Bible does say that Jesus is the "light, which enlightens everyone." But it doesn't say that this means what you are asserting it means. Nowhere does it explain this enlightening as somehow giving everyone the chance to be saved.

God is not a cruel God and does not pick who will be saved and who will be condemned before they are born because that would mean God is condemning people and God would not condemn people.

I agree that God is not cruel. But I think your ethical standards, your view of God, and your view of man is way off if you think it would be cruel for Jesus to not give everyone a chance to be saved. If God sent every single person to hell for their sins, that would be just. He doesn't owe us salvation, so it's not cruel for him to withhold it from us.

For another thing, it appears that in light of Matthew 11:20-21 and Romans 9 that you are forced to admit God is cruel (or else change your attitude).

How can God say He is loving if He condemns some people before they have a chance to decide for themself if they believe the truth or not.

Well in a sense everyone does have the chance to decide to believe the truth or not. The problem is all men decide to suppress the truth in unrighteousness. See for example Romans 1:18 and following:

Romans 1:18–20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

We don't get to create our own standard of what is loving and what is not loving and then see if God measures up to our own (twisted) standard. Instead, we allow Scripture to set the standard.

I mean, if that's how you want to play the game, then I can find you a homosexual atheist that would be more than happy to accuse your own concept of God as unloving and cruel for condemning homosexuality. Would you find that very convincing or no?

If it is a plan of God in His mind to happen in the future it is the same as if it already happened.

So if God plans to save each and every individual then each and every individual will be saved.

Does this mean you are a universalist (you don't believe in Hell)? Or does this mean you don't think it is God's plan to save each and every individual?

God already had the plan in His mind to give us salvation and the coming of Christ giving us His human body before He created mankind.

In other words, before God had even created the world, he had already planned for the fall to occur… I agree.

The Bible states that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance,so God does not decide who will saved but it is up to people to decide whether they believe or not.

So, wait, did God plan to save people or not?

As far as 2 Peter 3:9 is concerned, we read:

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.​

Who does the "you" refer to? Look back at verse 8: "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved…" It appears then, that Peter is talking about the elect. He is talking to the "beloved" and says to them that God is patient toward them, not wishing that any (of them) should perish.

The Bible clearly states that God has given the choice to mankind to decide whether they believe or not.

Which Bible verse do you have in mind?

The purpose of God creating mankind is to have people dwell with Him for all eternity,that made the choice to live for God,for then it is true love.

So true love must be made by choice? I think I've already asked you this question, but I don't recall you ever giving me an answer: does this mean you think a mother doesn't truly lover her baby and that a baby doesn't truly love its mother, because their love is instinctual and not volitional?

God wants people to choose Him for then it is true love.

Again, do you think a mother doesn't truly love her baby? Why do we idolize motherly love if it's not true love, I wonder...

If God picks who will be saved then it is not true love but robotic love,they would only be on God's side because they have no choice but to be on God's side.

Babies and moms are robots… got it.

God does choose a person after they have made the choice to live for God and do right.

God makes superfluous choices? "Oh, you choose me? Okay, then I choose you too!" is that how it goes? I guess Jesus didn't get the memo in John 15:16

To say that God does not choose some people before they have a choice to decide whether to believe or not would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit for they are calling God cruel when God is loving.

I'm not sure what it means to say "God does not choose some people before they have a choice…" but it looks like you're saying persons like Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, Matthew Henry, etc. (myself) are ****ed to hell for committing the unforgivable sin. (Out of curiosity, does this mean I don't have the choice to choose God… and does that mean God doesn't have the choice to choose me?)

I'm usually not one to complain about verbosity, but your post is very repetitious and you could have made your post a lot more concise by only saying things once instead of over and over. For example, instead of saying "God's creation is based on true love" four times, once seems sufficient.

 

[zone]

I don't think we will ever fully comprehend the things of God.

Check out Mark Driscoll's series on Doctrine-- its was these sermons that are now in the book form. website here:: Mars Hill Church


Blessings

Phil

fightingforthefaith mars hill church

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Ephesians 1:11 says: "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"

This, as well as Romans 9: 1-29 on God's Sovereign Choice, show's that God selected those who would be saved even before creation. Does that mean he chose those who would be condemned as well?
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. The thing is, God can allow free will and work out His will perfectly. From our viewpoint, there is predestination. From the viewpoint of the lost there is free will. They do not conflict.

I find it difficult to swallow that God chose only some to be saved. What about everyone else?

I know that we share the gospel so that the elect might hear it and recieve it, but what of those that contunually reject it? What of those that are never going to be saved? It makes it hard for me to understand the point of praying for people to be saved if God already has a plan for them and His will will be done. It's not like we can change the will of God.
Nevertheless, God has chosen to work through us, including through prayer. The fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much.

Also... what about the mentally challenged? The unborn that die? The babies? Are they saved?

I just find it hard to fully grasp some of this. As some of you know, I am relatively new to the faith and still have many many questions about everything. The pastor at my church this week did a sermon on this but it only left me with more questions. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

You know how God reached out to you. Trust Him. You know His grace. It is the same toward the sinner. As you grow in your knowledge, you will understand more, though never all until we are there.