Propaganda

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VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#41
By "I don't see that in Romans 14" I mean I don't see that interpretation. I read Romans 14, I see verses about dealing with eating, but I don't think the point of the scripture is to say it is alright to eat pagan food, and frankly I don't think that is what Paul was trying to say. God does not change. If He was offended by pagan stuff in the OT, He would still be offended by it in the NT. God isn't going to change His mind and suddenly say "Oh, it's okay for you to eat food that was sacrificed to pagan gods now."

I wasn't trying to destroy a point of view. I was simply ignoring it, because I didn't see the correlation between your example and Romans 14.



I really only brought up James 3:18, because the peacemakers vs peacekeepers example was used while I was at a James bible study a while back. Whether it was the right use of the word "peace" in that exact context, I don't know. We didn't exactly stay on topic at the Bible study, but I don't see anything wrong with getting sidetrack at a Bible study as long as it's still the Bible you're studying.


The thing is, I think the type of peace I was talking about and the type of peace mentioned in this verse can co-exist.

Matthew 5:38-42 doesn't really fit when it comes to being a peacemaker, because it's not the same thing. A peacemaker is someone who sees a problem, and instead of ignoring it, goes out to fix it. Jesus was a peacemaker. He saw things were horribly wrong, so He came down to earth and fixed things. Being a peacemaker can cause a stir, but this does not mean a person is fitting or anything of the sort.

When it comes to Matthew 5:38-42, Jesus is not asking us to accept all the wrong in the world. This scripture is not a call for Christians to turn a blind eye to wrong, sin, injustice, etc. This is telling us that we do not need to look for vengeance. Jesus is saying that instead of fighting someone back when they do us wrong, be forgiving instead, be merciful.

I am not talking about this sort of thing when I say we should be peacemakers. I am not saying that when someone sues you, to turn around and counter-sue them. I am not saying when someone slaps you on the cheek to slap them back. I am saying that to have peace you must make peace. When I argue with my sister, we don't make peace by ignoring eachother and pretending the argument never happened. That is keeping the peace, sure. When I stay silent after an argument, I keep the peace by not bringing it back up, but I'm not making peace. Inside I am still in turmoil over the argument. I am still feeling wronged, and confused, and I am not at peace with myself or my sister. Ignoring a problem does not make it go away.

Likewise, by ignoring people on chat, we are not making peace. We are simply keeping it. By confronting these people, we are not trying to start a fight. I am not asking that we slap a person who uses racist language. I am asking that peace is made by people addressing the problem, and looking for a solution.

Are you seeing the difference?
Brother, I applaud your zeal for Christ.

Can I say that holiness is not an act? Think about that. We do not become holy by acting holy. We become holy by birth. For the man who is clean, all things are clean. It is not what goes into the man that makes him unclean, but what comes from his mouth that shows him to be unclean. Jesus was holy not because He never sinned, but because God is His Father. This is what upset the religious of His day, because they knew that they were not holy, and needed a covering to even have a chance of approaching God. (Only the high priest, and only once a year, and only with the shedding of blood.) And here is a man claiming to be born of God. In other words, holy.

This is the essence of salvation in Christ Jesus.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#42
There are five ways that I act regarding posts that are offensive or destructive.
1. I consider if what I am really experiencing is the voice of the Holy Spirit.
2. I think about whether the issue is not significant enough to warrent action. (Sometimes I swat at the mosquitos. lol.)
3. I consider whether perhaps this is just a personality clash and, if significant enough, I iggie them to keep myself from reacting wrongly.
4. If there is a significant conflict that is not a matter leading away from salvation, I iggie them because to respond becomes futile.
5. If I feel that what they are doing might cause someone to stumble or if they state that as their purpose, I hit the response button.
I appreciate the ministry of those who are moderators and if there I ever had a problem I would leave without dispute.
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#43
Ok, I see what you mean but by asking for banning/gagging that still doesn't bring peace even as a peacemaker... the turmoil is still present. If it's not present in you, it would then be present in the other person because they're probably fuming over being banned/gagged. So at the end of the day, it's still peacekeeping, not peacemaking.

I am saying though that there are other, better ways to deal with it and that's the setting the example part.
 
L

lil-rush

Guest
#46
Ok, I see what you mean but by asking for banning/gagging that still doesn't bring peace even as a peacemaker... the turmoil is still present. If it's not present in you, it would then be present in the other person because they're probably fuming over being banned/gagged. So at the end of the day, it's still peacekeeping, not peacemaking.

I am saying though that there are other, better ways to deal with it and that's the setting the example part.
I do agree that banning should never be the immediate response to a disruption of peace. I used to be an administrator on a different site, and I always privately messaged someone to try and solve any problems they were causing before I resorted to banning. In fact, there was only ever one person I advocated being banned, and that was after the person had been warned (both by the administration and the members of the site) to stop his offensive behavior. He was not the type of person who was going to change, though, so in order to make things easier and more user-friendly for the rest of the members, this person was banned for a time.

I understand there are more than one way to solve a problem, but when mediating on a site doesn't help, it is my belief from personal experience that the person should simply be banned. It helps no one to keep an offensive person around just in order to keep from hurting that one person. What about all the other people that are being hurt just so the offensive person won't be hurt? Shall we hurt tens of people just to keep from hurting one?
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#47
I do agree that banning should never be the immediate response to a disruption of peace. I used to be an administrator on a different site, and I always privately messaged someone to try and solve any problems they were causing before I resorted to banning. In fact, there was only ever one person I advocated being banned, and that was after the person had been warned (both by the administration and the members of the site) to stop his offensive behavior. He was not the type of person who was going to change, though, so in order to make things easier and more user-friendly for the rest of the members, this person was banned for a time.

I understand there are more than one way to solve a problem, but when mediating on a site doesn't help, it is my belief from personal experience that the person should simply be banned. It helps no one to keep an offensive person around just in order to keep from hurting that one person. What about all the other people that are being hurt just so the offensive person won't be hurt? Shall we hurt tens of people just to keep from hurting one?
But herein lies the difference - we are Christians. When hurt, should we be looking to a world-solution for the hurt? Or should we really be finding the solution in Christ/God? If it is the latter, then how someone hurts us (which happens outside of the forum anyway, everyday, all the time) shouldn't make a difference on our response. Can you kick an individual out of a church simply because they are an atheist and publicly proclaimed to the congregation that all Christians are raving lunatics? Or, if hurt by the atheist's words, do you live with it and try to show the individual that Christians are not raving lunatics by setting a loving example - even though you may still be hurt?
 
L

lil-rush

Guest
#48
But herein lies the difference - we are Christians. When hurt, should we be looking to a world-solution for the hurt? Or should we really be finding the solution in Christ/God? If it is the latter, then how someone hurts us (which happens outside of the forum anyway, everyday, all the time) shouldn't make a difference on our response. Can you kick an individual out of a church simply because they are an atheist and publicly proclaimed to the congregation that all Christians are raving lunatics? Or, if hurt by the atheist's words, do you live with it and try to show the individual that Christians are not raving lunatics by setting a loving example - even though you may still be hurt?
I've just spent about 30 minutes writing, rewriting, revising, and rewriting again a response to you, and I've come to the conclusion that I have become too emotionally invested in this current situation to respond without becoming overly-emotional and offensive (not to you, per se. Just overly-emotional and offensive in general. You really haven't said anything to make me want to lash out at you. It's just a sensitive issue for me.)

I will admit I have a bias in relation to Cup, and I would love nothing more than to see him gone. Out of respect for the administrators on this site, I will not divulge the reasons for my bias, though. I will attempt to leave well-enough alone, and spend some time trying to think up a solution to the problem I could suggest to the admins.

That being said, I don't know what you are talking about when you say "world-solution" since everything I've said comes from my understanding of the Bible. Peacemaking is Biblical, and discipline is Biblical.
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#49
I've just spent about 30 minutes writing, rewriting, revising, and rewriting again a response to you, and I've come to the conclusion that I have become too emotionally invested in this current situation to respond without becoming overly-emotional and offensive (not to you, per se. Just overly-emotional and offensive in general. You really haven't said anything to make me want to lash out at you. It's just a sensitive issue for me.)

I will admit I have a bias in relation to Cup, and I would love nothing more than to see him gone. Out of respect for the administrators on this site, I will not divulge the reasons for my bias, though. I will attempt to leave well-enough alone, and spend some time trying to think up a solution to the problem I could suggest to the admins.

That being said, I don't know what you are talking about when you say "world-solution" since everything I've said comes from my understanding of the Bible. Peacemaking is Biblical, and discipline is Biblical.
I think we are both responding from a different place. As you said, you're responding from a more emotional place but it would seem that I'm not. That could be why neither of us are able to fully bring the point across to the other.

But to clarify - perhaps not for reflection in the present but in the future - by "world solution" I am referring to the self. Peacekeeping and peacemaking is biblical - I do not disagree on that one bit. But I am focusing more on the self - the reason for the act. It's like, if you act a certain way but for the wrong reason, then the reason for the act has become or could become non-biblical and therefore, leading from that, the act is "tainted" and has become or could become non-biblical as well.
 
L

lil-rush

Guest
#50
I think we are both responding from a different place. As you said, you're responding from a more emotional place but it would seem that I'm not. That could be why neither of us are able to fully bring the point across to the other.

But to clarify - perhaps not for reflection in the present but in the future - by "world solution" I am referring to the self. Peacekeeping and peacemaking is biblical - I do not disagree on that one bit. But I am focusing more on the self - the reason for the act. It's like, if you act a certain way but for the wrong reason, then the reason for the act has become or could become non-biblical and therefore, leading from that, the act is "tainted" and has become or could become non-biblical as well.
Quite possibly.

Ah. That makes sense. Kinda like Supreme Court cases in the US (sorry. I'm like really law-minded, so everything makes me think of the judicial system). In Supreme Court cases, there will be a majority opinion saying what the ruling of the court is, and then there can be majority concurring opinions that say they agree with the ruling, but don't agree with the reasoning that led up to the ruling.

I'm trying to keep myself out of the situation, though. I realize I have a bias, but the bias is not the sole reason I would suggest peace-making or banning. It's more of a plus. What I mean is that the bias is just one more small reason I suggest peace-making or banning, but without the bias, I would still advocate peace-making or banning.

Some people are of a peaceful temperament. I am not one of those people. I like to take action to correct a wrong. That would be why I am going to school to become an attorney. I want to get out there and fix wrongs. My mind simply works that way. It is the way God made me. He gave me a mind for logic, justice, reason, etc. As such, solutions I come up with are going to seem legalistic. That's just the way I am. I can accept that people will be given mercy and grace on occasion, but if someone is receiving neither grace nor mercy and is simply escaping punishment instead, I don't approve.
 
L

lil-rush

Guest
#51
I'm trying to keep myself out of the situation, though. I realize I have a bias, but the bias is not the sole reason I would suggest peace-making or banning. It's more of a plus. What I mean is that the bias is just one more small reason I suggest peace-making or banning, but without the bias, I would still advocate peace-making or banning.

Some people are of a peaceful temperament. I am not one of those people. I like to take action to correct a wrong. That would be why I am going to school to become an attorney. I want to get out there and fix wrongs. My mind simply works that way. It is the way God made me. He gave me a mind for logic, justice, reason, etc. As such, solutions I come up with are going to seem legalistic. That's just the way I am. I can accept that people will be given mercy and grace on occasion, but if someone is receiving neither grace nor mercy and is simply escaping punishment instead, I don't approve.
Scratch that ^. I was trying to justify my feelings because you were making me feel like it was unGodly and unChristian to advocate justice. I talked to my family about it during dinner, and they helped me realize I am right in my view of things.

So, I'm going to correct my statements and stop trying to backpedal over something I need not backpedal over.

In relation to "setting an example" my little brother (out of the mouth of babe's) made this rather brilliant comment: That's like someone robs a bank, and you let them rob the bank again instead of disciplining them or even telling them they're wrong. (paraphrase)

That is so true, and it is exactly what is going on when justice, mercy, nor grace is shown. We are not helping someone by "setting an example" if we don't also tell that person they are wrong. By allowing someone to continue on in bad behavior, you are enabling them, not helping them. When a Christian is doing wrong, you either correct and punish that person or you correct and show mercy/grace to that person.

My mom pointed out that in order to show mercy or grace to a person, you first have to point out to them that they have done wrong, and they must acknowledge they have done wrong. Going back to the robbing example, it is not grace or mercy to see a man rob a bank, ignore it, and allow him to rob another bank. Sure, you may say you are "setting an example" because you personally never rob a bank, but that man doesn't care about you not robbing a bank. That just means there are more banks for him to rob. If he sees that no one responds to him robbing a bank, he is going to go and rob more banks. He'll think "Hey, I got away with it last time. I'll do it again." If you confront the man, and say "Look, robbing banks is wrong, and I have every right to punish you for robbing a bank. I'm not going to, though. I am going to show you mercy this time, but don't do it again" then he knows he can't get away with it.

Now, what do you do after mercy has been shown and the person robs a bank again? You can show mercy again, of course, or you can show justice. Either is an appropriate response. A foolish response is to turn a blind eye to the robbery.

My dad pointed out that Micah 6:8 says to "do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God." God is a God that expects both mercy and justice of His children. Since God never changes, what He expected in the OT He still expects today. God never asked us to "set an example" by turning a blindeye to offensive and unGodly behavior being displayed by Christians. He expects us to show mercy and do justice.

Mom also pointed out that with the way y'all expect Christians to act, if Ananias and Saphira had lived today instead of in Biblical times, they would still be alive. By that she means that Christians are so used to sin and turning a blind eye on unGodly behavior that Christians would have said to let Ananias and Saphira live instead of allowing God to slay them for lying to Him.

God killed people for lying to Him. He accepts offensive behavior from no one. Neither should we.
 
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VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#52
There are rules in society. There are rules in this forum. There are rules in our daily life with others. Breaking these rules should have consequences.

From Jesus we have a commandment, well, maybe two, but one cannot do the one without first doing the other. Believe on Him whom God has sent, and love one another even as the He loves us.

If someone breaks the rules of this forum, and the people who have the responsibility to maintain the forum decide that this person is in fact breaking the rules, then it is up to them to decide whether to ban or not. Our only choice in the matter is to agree with them, or leave. No one is making us stay.

Rules are a fact of life in this world.

How we look at this one who breaks the rules is a whole different enchilada. We do not hold their rule breaking against them, and we do not judge them in our hearts, unless it is our place to uphold rules, and even then, it is a judgment that is according to rules, or law. For us, it should never be a personal judgment. This is because we know that breaking one part of the law is breaking the entire law, and we are guilty. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Now, as to those two misguided sinners in the first church, they were not struck dead by the apostles. They did not break any rules. They lied to the Spirit. Peter told them that they did not have to give all that they had received, but what they did was say that they had received this much when they had received more. They lied to God because they wanted to look like everyone else, but they did not want to give everything they had just like everyone else. That they would live today without trouble is to our shame because we lack the Holy Spirit.

If I am offended, I am the one having a problem. Jesus was offended often, but offered no rebuke. Well, except for the religious. But just as Jesus walked doing what He saw the Father doing, and saying what the Father said, so we should be. In other words, if the Holy Spirit moves us to censure certain behavior, then by all means, do so. But on my own, I don't think so, unless that is the responsibility of my position, and even then I would seek His face earnestly.
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#53
It's both fortunate and unfortunate that there are so many people who post on these forums. What is purely debate for some can be absolute stumbling blocks for others. There have been plenty of times when I've been SO frustrated about things someone has posted, that I've had to walk away from the computer and pray that the anger be lifted from my heart. There does come a point when someone is just making trouble, and they aren't doing anything to uplift or teach in a Godly way, but sometimes, when it's just personality or belief clashing, it's a good opportunity for us to temper our hearts against anger, pride, and spite so that when we experience a person like that in the real world, we can approach the situation in a calm, peaceful way.
 
Feb 3, 2010
1,238
3
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#54
It's both fortunate and unfortunate that there are so many people who post on these forums. What is purely debate for some can be absolute stumbling blocks for others. There have been plenty of times when I've been SO frustrated about things someone has posted, that I've had to walk away from the computer and pray that the anger be lifted from my heart. There does come a point when someone is just making trouble, and they aren't doing anything to uplift or teach in a Godly way, but sometimes, when it's just personality or belief clashing, it's a good opportunity for us to temper our hearts against anger, pride, and spite so that when we experience a person like that in the real world, we can approach the situation in a calm, peaceful way.
Why do different believes about doctrine bother you?

I can understand getting upset over rudeness, but different ideas?
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#55
First, kudos and thankyous to our mods. It is no easy job and I am greatful for your commitment.
Second, although I know that because of rules being needed , some will be banned and need to be. Just as evil needs to be rebuked.
But, I know there are some that many think are terrible and hateful. I still believe that this forum does provide a place to witness to these.
There are a few that most would like to see banned, but it is these ones in which I believe there is great potential.
In the new testament Paul is a great excample. I see this potential in those here at this site.
I believe that Jesus will work through all of us towards this ,for these ones.
What is name calling, but foolish words. Jesus is our shield, those words cannot touch us.
What are a few foolish words compared to salvation, for that one.
I hope that this forum will continue to give all the opportunity to be taught in the love of Jesus.
Otherwise, what perpose would be served?
In the Love of Jesus, God bless. pickles
 
M

miktre

Guest
#56
First, kudos and thankyous to our mods. It is no easy job and I am greatful for your commitment.
Second, although I know that because of rules being needed , some will be banned and need to be. Just as evil needs to be rebuked.
But, I know there are some that many think are terrible and hateful. I still believe that this forum does provide a place to witness to these.
There are a few that most would like to see banned, but it is these ones in which I believe there is great potential.
In the new testament Paul is a great excample. I see this potential in those here at this site.
I believe that Jesus will work through all of us towards this ,for these ones.
What is name calling, but foolish words. Jesus is our shield, those words cannot touch us.
What are a few foolish words compared to salvation, for that one.
I hope that this forum will continue to give all the opportunity to be taught in the love of Jesus.
Otherwise, what perpose would be served?
In the Love of Jesus, God bless. pickles
Very beautiful post Pickles, I always learn something from you.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#57
Very beautiful post Pickles, I always learn something from you.
And I you.
Remember each of us is a part of the body of Jesus.
We all need each other to be a whole body in Jesus.
God bless, pickles
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#58
And I you.
Remember each of us is a part of the body of Jesus.
We all need each other to be a whole body in Jesus.
God bless, pickles


I dont know if you ever read a rather rough story about the body and who the boss is.
I would not post it , but I always got a kick out of the part of the body that could be the boss.:D

Of course this body would never compare to the body of Jesus.:)
God bless, pickles
 
M

miktre

Guest
#59
I dont know if you ever read a rather rough story about the body and who the boss is.
I would not post it , but I always got a kick out of the part of the body that could be the boss.:D

Of course this body would never compare to the body of Jesus.:)
God bless, pickles

Which story are you referencing to?
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#60
Which story are you referencing to?
It was a poster that was in the place where i worked.
All the parts of the body were arguing over who was the most important.
The least and most ignored part, the one that can cause constpation said it was the boss.
All the body parts laughed and went on argueing.
So that one bodypart that I will not mention shut down.
Soon all the body parts began to suffer, the eyes began to water, the stumick cramp, hands shake ,brain fogged up, in a few days they were begging that one not mentioned part to please start working again.
This simply proved that you dont have to be a brain, or hands or feet to be the boss.
You need only to be that part I will not mention.:D

God bless, pickles