Punishment

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R

Redeemed79

Guest
#21
I don't know if sometimes God actually punishes or it's more that His judgements are already set in the earth anyway, the reap what you sow etc......some people say God is punishing me when they go through things in their life but the judgemtsnt is set, if you do not heed to His Word then life doesn't go soo great. Not being punished at all.
Also I did study on the rod and found the 'rod' to be God's covering, spare this and you will spoil the child...I think sometimes when I hear this quoted it is taken to mean spoil as in give them everything with no punishment or consequences but it means spoil as in ruin! The way to ruin your children is to not raise them in Gods Word and statutes (his covering). Please do not attack this just converse it with me it is just my thoughts....
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#22
I want to share how I learn, am corrected, by our Father, and see if it strikes a chord with anyone else.
Whenevr I act or speak in a way that is not loving, that is not in His love, He makes me to know His disappointment for what I have done or said, and even at times makes me to know how my words or actions have made the other person feel, especially if they are of His children. And when I come into His presence, and He illuminates my heart with His holiness, I see with altogether too much clearness the places where the darkess of hate or jealously or envy have not been rooted out by His light, or where these may have gained a place in me again. And if I stay away from Him and avoid His light, the Holy Spirit takes offense, and becomes silent in mu heart. Over the years, after many sins and errors, I have learned to recognize to some small extent when I am being chastised by God. It is always because of a lack of love for others, always. And always when I choose to walk not in love for others, I have had to walk not in Jesus, but after the flesh.

Whenever I find myself in this place of chastisement, never do I feel condemnation, but rather a sure conviction of what is required of God's children. And a deep sorrow and even shame at my hateful words and actions. But He is faithful and just, and forgives my of all my sins, and cleanses my heart of all unrighteousness. But this is not all that He does, oh no. In addition, He cleanses my conscience, making it pure again, no stain or even the remote smell of guilt, so that I can come before my Father again, justified in Him, pure and clean.

This is how He is growing me up into the fullness of Jesus Christ.

In His love,
Vic
I noticed that you refrained from using the word sin in your post. Is that because you believe that your sin nature has been crucified and eradicated from your body and those that are born of God cannot commit sin? Or do you believe because you have been risen with Christ that the body is dead to sin and you no longer live in sin? You have expressed that you are not looking forward to the resurrection because you have already been raised with Christ. By your own profession your lack of loving others, according to the new commandment that Christ gave, seems to be the only downfall that you are ashamed of and all other forms of sin you have no acknowledgment of being a part of or having failed in since you were illuminated by the Father through the Holy Spirit. Do I have that right?

I do not believe that we should leave out any unconfessed sin that has broken a believer's fellowship and would warrant loving discipline from the Father. Broken fellowship with the Father and the Son is a result of not walking by faith in the Spirit of receiving the fellowship of God's grace in the mind and heart that comes through the light of his word. Our fellowship in the Spirit must be according to the light we receive from God's gracious word and through the blood of Christ that has justified us into a right relationship with God by faith. The fullness of Christ is in his body and we grow up into the head, Christ, when we are experientially participating and giving of our supply in the body or local church that we have been called by grace to serve.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#23
I noticed that you refrained from using the word sin in your post. Is that because you believe that your sin nature has been crucified and eradicated from your body and those that are born of God cannot commit sin? Or do you believe because you have been risen with Christ that the body is dead to sin and you no longer live in sin? You have expressed that you are not looking forward to the resurrection because you have already been raised with Christ. By your own profession your lack of loving others, according to the new commandment that Christ gave, seems to be the only downfall that you are ashamed of and all other forms of sin you have no acknowledgment of being a part of or having failed in since you were illuminated by the Father through the Holy Spirit. Do I have that right?

I do not believe that we should leave out any unconfessed sin that has broken a believer's fellowship and would warrant loving discipline from the Father. Broken fellowship with the Father and the Son is a result of not walking by faith in the Spirit of receiving the fellowship of God's grace in the mind and heart that comes through the light of his word. Our fellowship in the Spirit must be according to the light we receive from God's gracious word and through the blood of Christ that has justified us into a right relationship with God by faith. The fullness of Christ is in his body and we grow up into the head, Christ, when we are experientially participating and giving of our supply in the body or local church that we have been called by grace to serve.
You are saying that our relationship with the Father is based upon the written word. I do not agree. Our relationship with God is based upon the finished work of Jesus at the cross. If we have broken fellowship with God, it is because of guilt, not because of sin. He chooses to see our sins and iniquities no longer. He chooses to do this, because He wants us to fellowship with Him. This is why we can have fellowship with Him. If we needed to be completely confessed of all of our faults and sins, before we could ever approach Him, then we would need to see as perfectly as He sees, and the simple truth is that we do not. It is in His presence that I find the faults in my character that He wants to correct, deep faults and desires which are not of Him, and His light, His personal holiness is what changes these faults in me.

So yes, what you are saying is a way of drawing closer to God, but there comes a time when this is not enough, and we must progress deeper into Him.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
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#24
You are saying that our relationship with the Father is based upon the written word. I do not agree. Our relationship with God is based upon the finished work of Jesus at the cross. If we have broken fellowship with God, it is because of guilt, not because of sin. He chooses to see our sins and iniquities no longer. He chooses to do this, because He wants us to fellowship with Him. This is why we can have fellowship with Him. If we needed to be completely confessed of all of our faults and sins, before we could ever approach Him, then we would need to see as perfectly as He sees, and the simple truth is that we do not. It is in His presence that I find the faults in my character that He wants to correct, deep faults and desires which are not of Him, and His light, His personal holiness is what changes these faults in me.

So yes, what you are saying is a way of drawing closer to God, but there comes a time when this is not enough, and we must progress deeper into Him.
I broke down your post and commented in italics.

You are saying that our relationship with the Father is based upon the written word. I do not agree. Our relationship with God is based upon the finished work of Jesus at the cross.
Every believer's relationship to the Father is based upon the work that Christ finished upon the cross, toward God and toward man (Jn 19:30). Toward God, the cross satisfied the justice of the Father by crucifying our old sin nature and putting away all our sins so that the Father could accept the sinner that would come to him by faith on the bases of what the Son did on the cross. Toward man, the cross crucified and buried everything that separated man from God and made it possible for sinful man to approach a holy God who is merciful and gracious, by simple faith in Christ's finished work.

If we have broken fellowship with God, it is because of guilt, not because of sin.

When we first believed upon Christ we were completely and totally forgiven and cleansed from all sin and the blood of Christ also cleansed and purged our conscience from guilt and every dead work of the flesh so that we could have unrestricted fellowship with the Father and the Son. Sin is what keeps man from having a relationship with God, fellowship with Him and communion through the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit. If we sin, we confess our sin to God and we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, who pleads our case and is our mediator between God and man. Our guilt is a result of sin and not the cause of broken fellowship.

He chooses to see our sins and iniquities no longer. He chooses to do this, because He wants us to fellowship with Him. This is why we can have fellowship with Him.

Not only does he chose not to see our sins and iniquities but he does not remember them anymore, being separated from him as far as the east is from the west. All of this is done that we may have unfettered access to him, his throne of mercy and grace and the kingdom of God all by faith presently and and forever. We apply this to our fallen brother in the same manner of love that was bestowed on us and commended to us.

If we needed to be completely confessed of all of our faults and sins, before we could ever approach Him, then we would need to see as perfectly as He sees, and the simple truth is that we do not.

We don't have to confess all our sins and faults, only the ones that he reveals to us through the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the light of his Word. This is all done by faith in the finished work of Christ without any works on our part. There is even no requirement of repentance because we can not make a promise that we will never do it again, but by the grace of God we will remain sin and by walking in the Spirt not fulfill the lust of the flesh. The veil is rent and we have bold access through the blood of Christ

It is in His presence that I find the faults in my character that He wants to correct, deep faults and desires which are not of Him, and His light, His personal holiness is what changes these faults in me.

There is no presence of God or fulness of joy without his Word being magnified. It is the Word that is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart and goes deep into the joints and marrow of the bone to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. It is the Word that is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword. The Word is the sword of the Spirit, so without the Word the Spirit has no sword. When we hear the Word preached in the conviction of the Holy Spirit, we are laid wide open for the Great Physician to come deal and with us concerning the deep things of God and remove all those hidden things that have hinder us from getting to know him.

So yes, what you are saying is a way of drawing closer to God, but there comes a time when this is not enough, and we must progress deeper into Him.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. This is a promise from God. If we draw near to his Word, his Word will draw near to us and go deep into the soul to cleanse and purify our hearts so that we will serve him without being double-minded or double-souled (dipsuchos). Surely you can not sperarate God from his Word. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (Jn 1:1).
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#25
You give the word deity. It is not. Jesus as the Word is God. The bible is not God. The bible is a gift of God, is from God, but is not God.

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instructions about washing, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we shall do, if God permits.

Then come the strong warning about tasting the heavenly gift and being enlightened and then falling away.

But what is this maturity? Do you know?
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#26
I broke down your post and commented in italics.

You are saying that our relationship with the Father is based upon the written word. I do not agree. Our relationship with God is based upon the finished work of Jesus at the cross.
Every believer's relationship to the Father is based upon the work that Christ finished upon the cross, toward God and toward man (Jn 19:30). Toward God, the cross satisfied the justice of the Father by crucifying our old sin nature and putting away all our sins so that the Father could accept the sinner that would come to him by faith on the bases of what the Son did on the cross. Toward man, the cross crucified and buried everything that separated man from God and made it possible for sinful man to approach a holy God who is merciful and gracious, by simple faith in Christ's finished work.

If we have broken fellowship with God, it is because of guilt, not because of sin.

When we first believed upon Christ we were completely and totally forgiven and cleansed from all sin and the blood of Christ also cleansed and purged our conscience from guilt and every dead work of the flesh so that we could have unrestricted fellowship with the Father and the Son. Sin is what keeps man from having a relationship with God, fellowship with Him and communion through the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit. If we sin, we confess our sin to God and we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, who pleads our case and is our mediator between God and man. Our guilt is a result of sin and not the cause of broken fellowship.

He chooses to see our sins and iniquities no longer. He chooses to do this, because He wants us to fellowship with Him. This is why we can have fellowship with Him.

Not only does he chose not to see our sins and iniquities but he does not remember them anymore, being separated from him as far as the east is from the west. All of this is done that we may have unfettered access to him, his throne of mercy and grace and the kingdom of God all by faith presently and and forever. We apply this to our fallen brother in the same manner of love that was bestowed on us and commended to us.

If we needed to be completely confessed of all of our faults and sins, before we could ever approach Him, then we would need to see as perfectly as He sees, and the simple truth is that we do not.

We don't have to confess all our sins and faults, only the ones that he reveals to us through the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the light of his Word. This is all done by faith in the finished work of Christ without any works on our part. There is even no requirement of repentance because we can not make a promise that we will never do it again, but by the grace of God we will remain sin and by walking in the Spirt not fulfill the lust of the flesh. The veil is rent and we have bold access through the blood of Christ

It is in His presence that I find the faults in my character that He wants to correct, deep faults and desires which are not of Him, and His light, His personal holiness is what changes these faults in me.

There is no presence of God or fulness of joy without his Word being magnified. It is the Word that is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart and goes deep into the joints and marrow of the bone to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. It is the Word that is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword. The Word is the sword of the Spirit, so without the Word the Spirit has no sword. When we hear the Word preached in the conviction of the Holy Spirit, we are laid wide open for the Great Physician to come deal and with us concerning the deep things of God and remove all those hidden things that have hinder us from getting to know him.

So yes, what you are saying is a way of drawing closer to God, but there comes a time when this is not enough, and we must progress deeper into Him.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. This is a promise from God. If we draw near to his Word, his Word will draw near to us and go deep into the soul to cleanse and purify our hearts so that we will serve him without being double-minded or double-souled (dipsuchos). Surely you can not sperarate God from his Word. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (Jn 1:1).

preach it brother, good post, hallelujah Praise God for Jesus and the finished work of te cross
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#27
preach it brother, good post, hallelujah Praise God for Jesus and the finished work of te cross
Preach it? How in what I posted above did I separate Jesus from God?
 
A

Aliciaforjesus

Guest
#28
If you are slow to learn you will be punished. But God is happy to hug you and love you as he is trying to teach you.

God does not punish, He corrects and leads!

He does not correct us out of anger, but corrects us by Love.
Punishment comes from judgment, and condemnation which brings fear.

The word does say, "That it is God's goodness, that leads us to repentance, not God's anger or His judgment.

Even in the old testament He sent His prophets to correct and lead but they would not listen.

God has no problem letting His children make their own bed.

God never demands His own way!




 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#29
God does not punish, He corrects and leads!

He does not correct us out of anger, but corrects us by Love.
Punishment comes from judgment, and condemnation which brings fear.

The word does say, "That it is God's goodness, that leads us to repentance, not God's anger or His judgment.

Even in the old testament He sent His prophets to correct and lead but they would not listen.

God has no problem letting His children make their own bed.

God never demands His own way!




Amen, He does not punish us. Just seeing His holiness is enough of a distress for us. Just seeing the endlessness of His love is enough of a rebuke for us. Just seeing His perfection is enough of a discipline for us. He shows us Himself, so that we can see in what ways we are not like Him, and so we can see what we are to become. And the closer we get to that image, the more it hurts to be different from that image, the more we want to become like that image. The desire to be like God in His holiness and purity and perfect love are there in us because He placed them in us, by His Spirit.
 
M

machew

Guest
#30
I wrote this in my other post, I think it is relevant here as well :)

The purpose of confrontation of sin is not to punish a person, but to help them realize again who they are in Christ, because in order to desire sin, you have to believe a lie about your identity and who you are. As a Christian, if you sin, it is because you are using it as a coping mechanism to deal with a wound in your heart(whether aware of it or not). In order to have not been healed of this wound, you have to believe a lie about yourself, God, or other people. Once you truly realize who you are, your identity in Christ, you rarely think about sinning because you no longer have any desire to or feel a need to. The goal is not to get someone not to sin, but to completely change the way they normally think(the definition of repentance). Repentance doesn't only mean being sorry for sin, but actually changing the way you think to the way God thinks. It is truly believing God's truth that sets you free from all unrighteousness through the blood of Jesus.

Punishing someone only disempowers the person in shame to not be able to truly deal with what is going on in their heart. If you punish the person now they are dealing with shame and guilt on top of dealing with their sin. Punishment brings about guilt and shame which is why it is not the correct way of dealing with sin. Discipline and punishment are not synonymous. Discipline pulls on a person to come closer and to learn from their mistake. Punishment alienates a person from the Punisher and hurts the relationship between them. The natural impulse when you are punished is to separate yourself from the Punisher. When someone disciplines you, your natural impulse is to reconcile the relationship. This is why it says that God disciplines those He Loves. Discipline is only possible in the context of a Loving relationship. Punishment can happen without a Love relationship. The only context that punishment was ever used in the Bible was for sin under the Old Covenant. Punishment was a requirement of their covenant if they sinned. But we aren't in that covenant anymore. And since our sins are atoned for by the blood of Jesus, God no longer has any need nor desire to punish us, though He still disciplines us to get us back on the right track. Do you see the distinction between the two?

Blessings,

Machew
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#31
Preach it? How in what I posted above did I separate Jesus from God?

sorry vw, i wasnt making any reference to you, i was only encouraged more in the revelation i have, being justified by faith in Jesus Christ and the full work of the cross in my life. His goodness to me gave me the gift of repentance, it wasnt a work of my doing that in itself. Everything we walk in is out of His goodness, His grace, the unmerited favor of God towards us, nothing more nothing less. i agree that the more we struggle with Him the more hurt we put ourselves thru, we come under the yoke of the law then, the more we see and acknowledge the full work of the cross the blessings of the promise bear fruit in our life. ABC Christianity at its best. God loves us unconditionally, God loved us unconditionally to start with.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#32
sorry vw, i wasnt making any reference to you, i was only encouraged more in the revelation i have, being justified by faith in Jesus Christ and the full work of the cross in my life. His goodness to me gave me the gift of repentance, it wasnt a work of my doing that in itself. Everything we walk in is out of His goodness, His grace, the unmerited favor of God towards us, nothing more nothing less. i agree that the more we struggle with Him the more hurt we put ourselves thru, we come under the yoke of the law then, the more we see and acknowledge the full work of the cross the blessings of the promise bear fruit in our life. ABC Christianity at its best. God loves us unconditionally, God loved us unconditionally to start with.
I should apologize, since I seem to be having trouble with another poster. So, I am sorry for the tone of my words and my words.

In Christ,
Vic
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#33
I should apologize, since I seem to be having trouble with another poster. So, I am sorry for the tone of my words and my words.

In Christ,
Vic

no need to apologise, i dont know what your apologising for, as i haven't been offended nor kept record on what was said,

what are you talking about? im sure thats what God does with us

no condemnation in Christ Jesus

love you vw, your posts are always good, inspiring and challenging..

with love mmmwwwaaa
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#34
no need to apologise, i dont know what your apologising for, as i haven't been offended nor kept record on what was said,

what are you talking about? im sure thats what God does with us

no condemnation in Christ Jesus

love you vw, your posts are always good, inspiring and challenging..

with love mmmwwwaaa
Same to you brother,

In His love,
vic