Questions about the Fall

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M

Miri

Guest
#1
Various musings as a result of reading a book called The Fall of Lucifer by Wendy Alec.

So hope you dont mind me throwing this into the ring for consideration
I’ve been reading the above book. By the way Wendy Alec was the CEO of God
channel along with Rory Alec (who unfortunately left her for another woman).

Anyway she has written a series of books the first one being The Fall of Lucifer
which I am half way through reading. It states at the beginning that it is a complete
work of fiction and in no way is it meant to be taken literally and it’s also not meant
to supplement the bible.

Has anyone read it. I have found the book to be really fascinating. It does weave
certain aspects of the bible accounts in with the fiction and I can see how the writer
has developed the story. Basically she has written a story as if she is filling in all the gaps.

So it starts off with the lead figures who are the 3 arc angels Lucifer, Michael
and Gabrielle. The story describes them, the heirachy of angels, the elders, what heaven
is like, it’s splender, the temple (with many of the descriptions taken from the bible.

How God created the universe etc. It sorts of sets it as if the angels and heavenly
beings can visit any where in the universe. How the 3 arc angels each command
a third of the angels each with Lucifer being the supreme being head arc angel.

Christos (Christ) is also a main character along with Yehovah and the Holy Spirit.
Yehovah communicates His intention to make another race of beings called man.
In the book Lucifer steals the blueprints and studies man’s dna and realises God
is intending to make man after His own image and enable man to self replicate.
But man will be mortal and not made in the same way as the angels and other
heavenly creations.
Whereas the angels were each individually created, not in God’s image and cannot self
replicate.

In the book Lucifer is distraught as he feels all his worship and service to God was
for nothing. That God is no longer satisfied with just the angelic creations, He wants
man made in His image to worship Him and to have a relationship with God in a way
the angelic beings cannot.Throughout it also refers to the unending love and mercy of God.
But how God gave the angels and man the choice of obeying God or free will to disobey God.

Then follows chapters about Lucifer how he becomes jealous, and distraught and his
thoughts get darker. He colludes with other angels and eventually a third of them
give their alliigence to Lucifer. Then a battle and judgement from God how God removes His
beauty and light from the fallen angels.

Another chapter speaks of the darkness which envelops the fallen agels and Lucifer.
Then how Lucifer deceives Eve to eat the fruit.

Anyway that’s as far as I have got. But it has made me consider certain things I have
not thought about before. Like.

1) God presumably gave heavely beings free will. What might have caused a third to
follow Satan. Or is a third symbolic and not a real third.

2). Why didn’t God come up with a plan for the angels to be saved?

3) When the bible says we are made in the image of God.
Maybe we really are made in the image of God (via Christ ie 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 ears,
a body etc). I’ve heard it said that there is a perfect man in heaven - Christ.
But maybe there’s always has been a perfect man in heaven? Any thoughts
anyone about what it means to be made in the image of God? Is this just spiritual
or could it actually be physical as well?

4). There is a part of the book which refers to how God gave Adam and Eve dominion
over the earth, but how they lost that when they fell and so Satan took
that from mankind and become the prince of the earth ruling it and mankind etc.
That the law of sin and death, meant God couldn’t just take it back and Satan knew
this.

Switching to the real bible we know how point 4 played out. Jesus was sacrificed and
mankind bought with a price, redeemed for those who will accept salvation.

Which leads me to another question. Why didn’t God just destroy the fallen angels?
Is it because they are also part of His creation?

Sorry lots of questions I know.

If you don’t mind works of fiction based on the bible, the book is certainly
interesting reading,
 
M

Miri

Guest
#2
Oh and just in case anyone wondered if works of fiction based on the
bible might be a problem. I would just say that there has been several in the
past.

Some famous ones which immediately come to mind are:-

Like the lion the witch and the wardrobe
Pilgrims Progress
Screw tape letters
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
320
83
#3
I'd say the book by C. S. Lewis is one of the best fiction books on the devil and his minion " THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS".
Entertaing ......& stuff to think about.
A book that also is fiction but a good read is "Paradise Lost" by Milton and the poem "Divine Comedy" by Dante Alighign
Much of what is passed along as biblical learning on the character if the devil comes from those works of fiction.

NONE can be taken as biblical fact. That is why they are in the fiction section of libraries.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,882
113
#4
1. Presuming angels had free will, what would have caused 1/3 to follow Satan into rebellion?

A. It IS a presumption that angels had free will; so you'd first have to get over that hurdle with the Calvinists.

B. I'm not a Calvinist, and I do believe the angels had some degree of free will, so I would give an answer about epistemic distance and the normal ruination of pride.

- Many Christian philosophers believe God's creatures are made with varying degrees of epistemic distance from God.
- With this as a premise, we might conclude angels were created at a precise epistemic distance which would make rebellion so absurd as to be unlikely, and completely unforgivable.... but yet still be possible.
- If it is even possible for an angel to freely rebel, then pride could take over any being that is able to have pride and rebel.

2. Why didn’t God come up with a plan for the angels to be saved?

A. I think the Calvinist view would be that saving the fallen angels was not part of God's sovereign plan, and it did not please him to do so.
Even as an Arminian, I think this is well within God's sovereignty... he doesn't owe his creation anything.

B. On the Arminian view, I would suggest the fallen angels are fallen to such a degree, so depraved and apostate, that they are wholly and utterly unwilling, under any circumstance, to ever repent... and so God owes them no means of reconciliation.
(If a man's eyes are opened by God, to see his glory, we believe all men, or at least some men, would respond and repent... but the angels BEGAN with their eyes already open to God's glory, and became apostate by closing them.)

- They once knew God so well, and so closely and personally, that to rebel against him would be to commit an act that would seer their own conscience to such a degree they are forever incapable of repentance.
- They have made their own hearts into things so black and impenetrable that even the complete knowledge and grace of God could not breach their dark hearts.

C. Of course it is also possible to somewhat reconcile these two views: God had his own plans and purposes, and he therefore allowed the angels to fall and PUT THEMSELVES into such a state as to be irredeemable.
(This would be my personal view.)


3. What is the image of God; does it mean to have 2 arms and 2 legs?

A. Since God is spirit, it doesn't seem likely that to be "in his image" is talking about the "visual image" of having 2 arms and 2 legs.

B. But God could have chosen any form for us, and yet when he created humans, this special creature to have a special relationship with him, he chose, out of all possible options, this peculiar physical form we have.... so I do think this form we have is very special.


4. Was Adam's dominion a thing which Satan took from him after the Fall?

A. This depends entirely on how we define Adam's dominion.

B. It seems to me, from simply reading the text, that Adam's dominion was not something political, like that of a prince, but merely a physical dominance over the rest of creation.

C. Since man STILL has this physical dominance over the rest of creation, it would seem to me this dominion over the earth is still intact.

* This whole issue about dominion depends entirely on how we define dominion.

* A different definition of dominion would lead to a different conclusion, by I'm just going directly from the text in Genesis 1.


...
 
Mar 14, 2011
69,465
14,809
113
#5
Various musings as a result of reading a book called The Fall of Lucifer by Wendy Alec.

So hope you dont mind me throwing this into the ring for consideration
I’ve been reading the above book. By the way Wendy Alec was the CEO of God
channel along with Rory Alec (who unfortunately left her for another woman).

Anyway she has written a series of books the first one being The Fall of Lucifer
which I am half way through reading. It states at the beginning that it is a complete
work of fiction and in no way is it meant to be taken literally and it’s also not meant
to supplement the bible.

Has anyone read it. I have found the book to be really fascinating. It does weave
certain aspects of the bible accounts in with the fiction and I can see how the writer
has developed the story. Basically she has written a story as if she is filling in all the gaps.

So it starts off with the lead figures who are the 3 arc angels Lucifer, Michael
and Gabrielle. The story describes them, the heirachy of angels, the elders, what heaven
is like, it’s splender, the temple (with many of the descriptions taken from the bible.

How God created the universe etc. It sorts of sets it as if the angels and heavenly
beings can visit any where in the universe. How the 3 arc angels each command
a third of the angels each with Lucifer being the supreme being head arc angel.

Christos (Christ) is also a main character along with Yehovah and the Holy Spirit.
Yehovah communicates His intention to make another race of beings called man.
In the book Lucifer steals the blueprints and studies man’s dna and realises God
is intending to make man after His own image and enable man to self replicate.
But man will be mortal and not made in the same way as the angels and other
heavenly creations.
Whereas the angels were each individually created, not in God’s image and cannot self
replicate.

In the book Lucifer is distraught as he feels all his worship and service to God was
for nothing. That God is no longer satisfied with just the angelic creations, He wants
man made in His image to worship Him and to have a relationship with God in a way
the angelic beings cannot.Throughout it also refers to the unending love and mercy of God.
But how God gave the angels and man the choice of obeying God or free will to disobey God.

Then follows chapters about Lucifer how he becomes jealous, and distraught and his
thoughts get darker. He colludes with other angels and eventually a third of them
give their alliigence to Lucifer. Then a battle and judgement from God how God removes His
beauty and light from the fallen angels.

Another chapter speaks of the darkness which envelops the fallen agels and Lucifer.
Then how Lucifer deceives Eve to eat the fruit.

Anyway that’s as far as I have got. But it has made me consider certain things I have
not thought about before. Like.

1) God presumably gave heavely beings free will. What might have caused a third to
follow Satan. Or is a third symbolic and not a real third.
They fell because they followed Satan, Because they did not trust God either.. and believed satans lie.
2). Why didn’t God come up with a plan for the angels to be saved?
As for no plan to save them, They saw God how he is. No man has seen God and lived. Not to mention. What fallen angel has ever repented? Nor had any desire too?
3) When the bible says we are made in the image of God.
Maybe we really are made in the image of God (via Christ ie 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 ears,
a body etc). I’ve heard it said that there is a perfect man in heaven - Christ.
But maybe there’s always has been a perfect man in heaven? Any thoughts
anyone about what it means to be made in the image of God? Is this just spiritual
or could it actually be physical as well?
God does not have a physical body. He could have taken himan form. As he did in the OT, but he did not have a human body until he was born.

I think it is spiritual, but hard to comprehend exacly what it means.
4). There is a part of the book which refers to how God gave Adam and Eve dominion
over the earth, but how they lost that when they fell and so Satan took
that from mankind and become the prince of the earth ruling it and mankind etc.
That the law of sin and death, meant God couldn’t just take it back and Satan knew
this.
When man fell. Satan became their master. Until mankind is eternal and no longer in a fallen state

Switching to the real bible we know how point 4 played out. Jesus was sacrificed and
mankind bought with a price, redeemed for those who will accept salvation.

Which leads me to another question. Why didn’t God just destroy the fallen angels?
Is it because they are also part of His creation?

Sorry lots of questions I know.

If you don’t mind works of fiction based on the bible, the book is certainly
interesting reading,
Dr Jeremiah did a. Book like this concerning end times. I loved the read. Sometimes it opens our minds.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,994
5,036
113
#6
1) God presumably gave heavely beings free will. What might have caused a third to follow Satan.
We do not really know, other than the mistaken idea that following Lucifer would be giving them an advantage,
Or is a third symbolic and not a real third.
Since there are a huge number of evil angels, 1/3rd of the total would be correct.
2). Why didn’t God come up with a plan for the angels to be saved?
Because they were meant to be ministering spirits only. Humans, on the other hand, were meant to enter into the family of God since Christ would take human form.
3) When the bible says we are made in the image of God... Is this just spiritual
or could it actually be physical as well?
Both. Humans have a mind, a will, and emotions. But eventually those who are saved will be transformed into the likeness of Christ, with glorified bodies.

4). There is a part of the book which refers to how God gave Adam and Eve dominion over the earth, but how they lost that when they fell and so Satan took
that from mankind and become the prince of the earth ruling it and mankind etc.
That the law of sin and death, meant God couldn’t just take it back and Satan knew
this.
There is a huge difference between Satan having THE RIGHT to become *the god of this world*, and Satan being ALLOWED BY GOD to be so. There is a false doctrine which has been around for some time that because of the Fall, Satan could simply take over the world. Had God chosen, Satan could have been cast into the Lake of Fire immediately. But God has ALLOWED him to do his evil deeds because that is a part of God's plan.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
320
83
#7
Max........your whole premise is wrong......God gave none of His creation a free will. HIS WILL is the ONLY will.
Note in book of Job that Satan had to ask permission to sift Job and even then God put restraints on him.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,882
113
#8
Max........your whole premise is wrong......God gave none of His creation a free will. HIS WILL is the ONLY will.
Note in book of Job that Satan had to ask permission to sift Job and even then God put restraints on him.
I tried to give rudimentary premises, and points of view, from both theological camps....
and I did that intentionally to show different orthodox ways in which to reconcile these conundrums.

If you don't think I explained them well enough, you're probably right.
Please join in and add your thoughts to the discussion.

..
 
Sep 3, 2018
42
28
18
#9
Max........your whole premise is wrong......God gave none of His creation a free will. HIS WILL is the ONLY will.
Note in book of Job that Satan had to ask permission to sift Job and even then God put restraints on him.
I was also going to mention Job. In Job Satan, who is the main adversary to mankind, is in Heaven talking to God about Job. We learn that Satan walks the Earth, tests people with God's permission and has power over the Earth. Where does the idea that Satan is a fallen angel come from?

Kind Regards,

James
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
7,691
2,774
113
#10
Havent really thought about it but interesting questions.
JEsus said he saw Satan fall like lightening from Heaven Luke 10:18
There was war in heaven in revelation 12
The devil is shown as an accuser and a deceiver. He gets fallen angels (demons) to follow him through deception.
God will destroy the fallen angels on judgement day. They are already condemned. Read the letter of Jude.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,883
748
113
#11
I was also going to mention Job. In Job Satan, who is the main adversary to mankind, is in Heaven talking to God about Job. We learn that Satan walks the Earth, tests people with God's permission and has power over the Earth. Where does the idea that Satan is a fallen angel come from?

Kind Regards,

James
James Satan was a angel at one time in fact he led worship.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
682
113
#13
No such thing as a "Lucifer" and therefore no fall of such.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,498
4,013
113
#14
Isa 14:12 How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth.

In some translations Lucifer here is also called "the bright morning star." Is this your reference point?
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
320
83
#15
I was also going to mention Job. In Job Satan, who is the main adversary to mankind, is in Heaven talking to God about Job. We learn that Satan walks the Earth, tests people with God's permission and has power over the Earth. Where does the idea that Satan is a fallen angel come from?

Kind Regards,

James

Much of what we THINK we know about Satan comes from two sources: Milton's "Paradise Lost" and Dante's "Divine Comedy"
These fictional misconceptions have been woven into a false teaching about Satan's powers, as if his power is equal to God's.

Even if Satan did have those imaginary powers, they are meaningless to a born again Christian......the Holy Spirit and the evil one do not dwell in the same place and we, as God's children are not left like orphans with none of the ministries of the Holy Spirit.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
320
83
#16
I tried to give rudimentary premises, and points of view, from both theological camps....
and I did that intentionally to show different orthodox ways in which to reconcile these conundrums.

If you don't think I explained them well enough, you're probably right.
Please join in and add your thoughts to the discussion.

..
NONE of God's creation was given a free will.
definition of "FREE WILL" - to secure an opinion without ANY outside influence whatsoever.

This would be like living your whole life in a vacuum.

People are under the influence of others from the day they are born
Even Bubble Boy had outside influence!

(this is not to be confused with 'freewill offering" of old covenant regarding temple offerings)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,899
8,510
113
#17
NONE of God's creation was given a free will.
definition of "FREE WILL" - to secure an opinion without ANY outside influence whatsoever.

This would be like living your whole life in a vacuum.
thank you for giving a definition :) that prevents soo much potential confusion!

wouldn't it be true that a lack of ability to exercise perfect, uninfluenced freedom is not proven by a lack of opportunity to do so?
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
320
83
#18
thank you for giving a definition :) that prevents soo much potential confusion!

wouldn't it be true that a lack of ability to exercise perfect, uninfluenced freedom is not proven by a lack of opportunity to do so?

Of course AND since no natuarl person can receive or understand the things of the Spirit of God, there is no way for a free will without that precious Spirit..... to truly know much beyond the simple gospel call.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
1,882
113
#19
NONE of God's creation was given a free will.
definition of "FREE WILL" - to secure an opinion without ANY outside influence whatsoever.

This would be like living your whole life in a vacuum.

People are under the influence of others from the day they are born
Even Bubble Boy had outside influence!

(this is not to be confused with 'freewill offering" of old covenant regarding temple offerings)

In the comment you are referring to, I mentioned both sides of this argument, and I did nothing to disparage your side.

It's irrelevant to defend your position because I never attacked it.

No one is arguing with you.

God Bless,
Max

...
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
320
83
#20
In the comment you are referring to, I mentioned both sides of this argument, and I did nothing to disparage your side.

It's irrelevant to defend your position because I never attacked it.

No one is arguing with you.

God Bless,
Max

...
Max, I don't see any argument. I'm just putting in my 2cents worth.