Ray Comfort/John MacArthur teaches a false gospel

[greatkraw]

Those posts were posted before they were banned. I'm not quite sure how it works but the old posts still stay on they just have the word banned on all the previous posts.

it is all about how a relational database works and referential integrity

there would be an option to delete all their posts but the admin have not gone that way

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

I just don't understand why so many people complicate the simplicity that is in Christ saying that if you do good works and obey God's commandments that this is works salvation.

The Bible says in 1 John that this is how we know that we know Him, if we keep his commandments. You can call that a works salvation if you want but that is just what the Bible says.

The Bible says that if we say that we know Him and don't keep His commandments that we are a lier and the truth is not in us.

The Word is God and in order to believe on Him you also have to believe His Word. The Bible says that faith alone and not works is how we are saved, let me give you an idea of how if think this could be illustrated.

A man robs a house and in the process kills someone. He gets cought and is sentenced 20 years for robbery and 50 years for killing someone. What kind of works is going to set him free.... none, he is under the law and condemned by it, nothing that he can do can save him. Twenty years later the judge reveiws the case and decides to give him a full parden. This is called grace and he is no loger under the law or condemned by the law. And if he has any sense he is going to keep the law and walk after the guidlines placed by the government out of love and respect for being set free. If he commits the same offence, he will be judged according to the law.

It says in Galatians that if we walk after the Spirit we are not under the law.

I heard of an omish lady that said she was doing good deeds so that she could make it to Heaven. That my friend is called works salvation. Believing on Jesus Christ and then walking in obedience is not works salvation it is a requirement. The Bible says that he who continues commiting sin is of the Devil cause the devil sinned from the beginning.

In Matthew were it says that few enter the Lord says depart from me ye that work iniquity. Just because you said a prayer one time is not the test. You can give people a false hope and tell them it don't matter what they do they can still make it to Heaven, but I have searched Scripture and see nothing like it. Nothing can separate us from Christ but our turning around and rejecting Him and turning back to sin.

Yes there are many things that I disagree with curt cameron and Ray Comfort, but they still say they believe on the Lord Jesus and I have not seen enough proof yet to label them as a false prophet. In Matthew 24 we read that the Gospel will be preached to the whole world before Christ comes back. And there are many different Missionarys and I'm sure not all of them ar OSAS.

The problem is that in the modern era of the church, namely in America, there is a large number of people who believe that one can embrace God and still fullfill fleshly desires which scripture clearly warns us about. They feel that God's grace is all the need for salvation and tend to overlook biblical teachings on deeper issues (such as sanctification for starters). If that were the extent of what they believed, then most christians would most likely leave them alone to believe what it is they want to believe. However, these same people often times openly ridicule those who do not share their belief and often accuse other christians who do not agree with their "watered down" doctrine of herecy or apostacy which can be viewd as a negative fruit caused by giving into sinful desires that they don't feel they need to repent from.

This is exactly what this entire thread is about. One sect of baptist calvinists attack the another sect of baptist calvinists simply because the second sect refuses to embrace the idea that one claim to be christian and still live a lifestyle full of sin and treachery.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

The problem is that in the modern era of the church, namely in America, there is a large number of people who believe that one can embrace God and still fullfill fleshly desires which scripture clearly warns us about. They feel that God's grace is all the need for salvation and tend to overlook biblical teachings on deeper issues (such as sanctification for starters). If that were the extent of what they believed, then most christians would most likely leave them alone to believe what it is they want to believe. However, these same people often times openly ridicule those who do not share their belief and often accuse other christians who do not agree with their "watered down" doctrine of herecy or apostacy which can be viewd as a negative fruit caused by giving into sinful desires that they don't feel they need to repent from.

This is exactly what this entire thread is about. One sect of baptist calvinists attack the another sect of baptist calvinists simply because the second sect refuses to embrace the idea that one claim to be christian and still live a lifestyle full of sin and treachery.

However you view the relationship between faith in works, God cannot be mocked.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Before I warn the body of Christ about Ray Comfort, I must commend him for all the great things he has done. He has defended God from athiests, called Christians to unite and preach the gospel. He has distributed many good materials to help one witness to the lost. While he is Biblical sound on most matters, he makes a fatal SUBTLE mistake when teaching the gospel(concerning "repentance"). A mistake that may send people to hell for believing in self righteousness to be saved. It is this critical error that makes him a false teacher. I will quote him in purple from some pages that deals with his view on salvation:
http://www.livingwaters.com/good/022.shtml

"You must turn away from sin and turn to God. Desire to have NOTHING to do with sin, and surrender your life to the One who can save you. "

We know as Christians, that by faith we are saved. The NIV introduces the dangerous "Lordship salvation"(ie: that a sinner must stop sinning and/or make a commitment to Christ to godly living as a prerequisite to salvation). It is sad to see that many big groups today erroneously teach this. It is a works gospel in disguise. Discipleship/following Christ, growing as newborn babes in Christ("As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" 1 Peter 2:2) is a FRUIT of genuine repentance(Romans 12:1, Titus 2:11-13) not a prerequisite. Of course a sinner must become guilty under God's law about his sinful lost state and know that he deserves hell(Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7, Galatians 3:24). Ray Comfort is CORRECT on this aspect of the need for a sinner to be aware of his sins and lost condition. But repentance and belief are not 2 separate decisions. The direct meaning of repentance is "a change of mind". The change of mind is concerning ones sins and what he must do to be saved-believing the gospel:

"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43

Repentance is a change from UNBELIEF to BELIEF to the Savior for salvation(as illustrated by the above 2 verses). Note that in the book of John, the word "repentance" is not even mentioned once! It should be understood that one who has repented has believed, and one who believes has repented. See examples in the Word- (Luke 18:33, Luke 23:40-43, Acts 16:29-31)
This link below under the section "Is repentance necessary for salvation?" you will find Ray's response:
http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/browse.shtml

"If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent. However, the Bible tells us that a false convert "believes" and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13)"

I'll show you Luke 8:13 in context. From Luke chapter 8:

vs. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

vs. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

vs. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

vs. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


Looking at this passage in context, Ray teaches a lie concerning Luke 8:13. There are 4 groups of people being addressed. In vs. 12, these people are not saved as the Word clearly says so(because they did not BELIEVE). In vs. 13, these people are saved, because it says they did believe for a while(no, they did not lose salvation, for one to teach that is blasphemy to God).A good parallel verse for Luke 8:13 is found in Matthew:


"But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." Matthew 13:20-21


In vs. 14, these people are saved but they "bring no fruit to perfection"(good verses to look up concerning "fruit"-Proverbs 11:30, Isaiah 3:10, Ephesians 5:8-10, Philippians 1:11, James 3:17-18). The last group of people are saved individuals who do in fact grow in the Word(1 Peter 2:2) and bear fruit. These are the group of people God wants all Christians to be! Many Christians fear being persecuted, and so they dont confess Jesus in their lives. Such people dont bear fruit. A good verse showing an example of this:


"Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." John 12:42-43


John MacArthur is another popular preacher today who teaches heresy concerning salvation. In his book "Hard to Believe", page 93, he states concerning salvation:

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny"

Of course, one can easily defend these false teachers using a corrupt modern version of the Bible. MacArthur is a very confused man to think that righteous deeds will save someone. His words are condemned in the Word of God:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Romans 10:3-4

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Titus 3:5


I will give you two examples of how Jesus dealt with sinners below:
1)Complete story found in John 5:5-14
"And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place. Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. " John 5:13-14

2)"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:3-11

In both of these cases(Jesus healing man, woman caught in adultery), notice it is after the fact that they are forgiven that Jesus says to "sin no more". He didn't tell them they had to physically give up certain sins and to make God a promise to live sinless lives to be saved(which would be self righteousness). The hypocrisy of Lordship salvation is like that of John 8:3-11. He who is without sin teach a lost sinner that they must first stop sinning to come to Christ! Even Christians sin(good example-Romans 7:11-25). So many false teachers put the cart before the horse. They expect good works in order to come to Christ. No, we come to Christ because of our sins, and that leads to good works(they confuse the ROOT of our faith, with the FRUIT of our faith). This verse is a good example about the hypocrisy of someone demanding good works(ie:stop sinning) to come to Christ and that it is foolishness:

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32

My other 2 threads show that these 2 teachers are false teachers who are deceiving many into believing a works gospel in disguise:

Biblical repentance- http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=1356
There is only one saving gospel- http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=1619

I dont like exposing people. I really dont. But it has to be done, for the sake of warning the body of Christ of false teachers(especially since these 2 are popular today). I do admire Ray Comfort for defending the Bible and for having a website that gives us advice on how to share our faith with mormons, muslims, etc....other types of situations....But it is the very corruption of his definition of "repentance" that makes his gospel a subtle false gospel. John MacArthur is a bit more extreme in his heresy in that he requires an entire obedience to God throughout ones life to be saved.

Salvation is not a deal(ie:commitment), it is a free gift(Romans 5:15-19). A free gift has no strings attached. If you attach anything onto a free gift, it is no longer a free gift. That is plain logic. Salvation is not hard(2 Corinthians 11:3), but people like Ray Comfort and John MacArthur make it confusing and hard.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17

I don't think Ray Comfort makes it confusing or hard at all, people just tend to love to hold onto their sin and don't like what he has to say. (Or what the bible has to say for that matter)

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

However you view the relationship between faith in works, God cannot be mocked.

good works has nothing to do with salvation. good works are merely a side effect of having a genuine love and sincere attitude toward god. there's nothing wrong with wanting to put away old habits that you know god God does not approve of. Since when did this become "works"? Would you still date other girls after you are married? Of course not because you know that your wife would be deeply upset.

It's that simple.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

Good works are merely a side effect of having a genuine love and sincere attitude toward god.

Maybe this will help get my point accross:

"Good works are merely the RESULT of having a genuine love and sincere attitude toward god."

Now I'm not saying that everyone who commits to doing good works is a genuine christian. Jesus tells us in scripture that we will be able to indentify the genuine from the counterfit by their fruit. The easiest way to tell if someone is genuine is to take a look at their fruit. What is their motive for doing good works? Are they motivated by love and compassion or by ambition and self exaltation?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanted to sanctify themselves, walking away from worldly influences that they feel may lead them to stumble. Why? Because we know through scripture that sin does indeed grieve the Holy Spirit. In other words, while individual sin may not cause you to lose your salvation, it does in deed interfere with your spiritual growth.

However, if a person who professes to be christian lives a life of indulgance to sin without regard or remorse in their hearts, then it is obvious by not only their bad fruit but also their lack of good fruit, that this person clearly is not committed in their heart to Christ nor in their faith in Christ. Keep in mind that it is "by grace THROUGH FAITH that we are saved."

In most cases possessing "good works" is a result in having faith in Christ and His word as A RESULT OF SALVATION and has absolutely nothing to do with the works themselves toward salvation.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

Possessing "good works" is a result of having faith in Christ and His word as A RESULT OF SALVATION and a genuine desire for authentic fellowship. "Good works" have absolutely nothing to with earning salvation which is an impossibility.

"We are saved by grace through faith ..."


The difference between "Pure Calvinsim" as preached by John McArthur & Paul Washer and "Hyper Calvinism" as preached by Charles Stanley & Tony Evans is this:

Hyper Calvinists believe "we are saved by grace and by grace alone."

Pure Calvinists believe "we are saved by grace through faith in Christ and in faith alone."

This is what Presbyterians (who are also Calvinists) call "the soverignty of God and yet the responsibility of man."

 

[NewJerusalem]

I am not as familiar with Ray Comfort, but I believe he is in favor of showing one's sin according to the law, prior to preaching why we need a Savior....... But I am fairly familiar with John MacArthur and will say I do not agree with everything he teaches, specifically with the passing of gifts/manifestations of The Holy Spirit or his eschatological views, but I know he preaches Christ and Christ crucified and is not preaching a false gospel.

BTW, one of the best messages I have ever heard in full, maybe about 45 minutes long?, can be found at gracetoyou... an audio can be downloaded and title is "Doctrine of Election" Part 3...... awesome insight indeed.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

good works has nothing to do with salvation. good works are merely a side effect of having a genuine love and sincere attitude toward god. there's nothing wrong with wanting to put away old habits that you know god God does not approve of. Since when did this become "works"? Would you still date other girls after you are married? Of course not because you know that your wife would be deeply upset.

It's that simple.

Since James used that expression. I agree with you, I just think that the person who makes an outward commitment to Christ, reserving the right to be unchanged, is not making a true commitment to God, and is not fooling God.

 

[Sharon]

Hi I hope that you continue to speak God WORD contiuously in love to those that are lost and need the truth. All people need God all people need salvation. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. People need to know the truth its here to set us free. John 8:31,32. Preach the word.