Refuting Roman Catholicism

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Witness45

Guest
#1
The following should help you engage any Roman Catholic about their Catholicism:

A group is non-Christian when it denies the essential doctrines of the Bible:

  • The deity of Christ, which involves the Trinity
  • The resurrection of Jesus
  • Salvation by grace alone

Unfortunately Catholics deny this third doctrine, Salvation by grace alone, and are therefore non-Christian. Does that mean that no Catholics are genuinely saved? I honestly can't say, however it is possible since they obviously don't understand the true gospel and therefore don't have true faith in Jesus. Therefore the most important thing is introducing them to the true Jesus who alone atones for their sins.

Now, the most effective way to speak about the issues of eternity to any Christian you suspect isn't trusting the savior, is not to get sidetracked from the essentials of salvation. Upon hearing a person's background, we may feel an obligation to speak to issues such as infant baptism, transubstantiation, etc. However, it is wise rather to build on the points of agreement between the Bible and the person's denomination, such as the virgin birth, the cross, and so on.

One point of agreement will almost certainly be the Ten Commandments. They are the key to bringing any religious person to a saving knowledge of the gospel. After someone is converted to Jesus Christ, the Bible will come alive and he/she will be led into all truth by the indwelling Holy Spirit. God's Word will then give them light, and he/she will forsake religious tradition as he is led by God.

While there are strong biblical arguments that may convince unregenerate people that their church's traditions contradict Holy Scripture, there is a difficulty. Some religious people hold the teachings of their church to be on par with, or of greater authority than, Holy Scripture. It is therefore often futile to try to convince them intellectually that their trust should be in the person of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own righteousness or in their church traditions. For this reason we should aim at the conscience, rather than the intellect. Take sinners through the Law of God (the Commandments) to show them that they are condemned despite their works, and strongly emphasize that we are saved by grace, and grace alone, rather than by trusting in our own righteousness or religious traditions.

If they are open to the gospel, and are interested in what God's Word says in reference to their church's teachings, they will listen to scripture. For example, in Matthew 8:14 we see that Peter (whom the Roman Catholic church maintains was the first pope) was married, as were many of the other apostles (see 1 Corinthians 9:5).

Justification is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is a legal action in that God declares the sinner righteous - as though he has satisfied the Law of God. This Justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood: "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9). Justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7) that comes through faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1). Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12) and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12; 1 Pet. 2:24), and in so doing are justified by God. The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8,9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:13), something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10). However, Roman Catholic doctrine denies justification by faith alone and says: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Counsel of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

Anathema, according to Catholic theology, means excommunication, "the exclusion of a sinner from the society of the faithful." Roman Catholic theology therefore pronounces a curse of excommunication, of being outside the camp of Christ, if you believe that you are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus.

Does the Roman Catholic church specifically state that we are "saved by grace and works"? Not that I am aware of. But, when the Roman Catholic church negates justification by faith alone, it necessarily implies that we must do something for justification, for if it is not by faith alone, then it must be by faith and something.

At this point many Catholics appeal to James 2:24, which says, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." But the context of James is speaking of dead faith as opposed to living, saving faith. James states that if you "say" you have faith but have no works (James 2:14), that faith cannot save you because it is dead faith (v. 17). In other words, mere intellectual acknowledgement of Christ is a dead faith that produces no regeneration and no change in a person's life. This faith does not justify. Rather, it is only that real and believing faith in Christ that results in justification. Someone who is truly Justified is saved and regenerated, and the results of true saving faith are manifested in the changed life of the one justified by faith alone. Real faith produces good works, but it isn't these works that save you. Good works are the effect of salvation, not the cause of it in any way and they certainly do not help anyone keep their salvation.

The Bible maintains that justification is not by works in any way but is by grace through faith in Christ and His sacrifice alone. The Bible says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" (Rom. 10:9). Furthermore, the Bible states explicitly: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9).

Catholicism teaches that certain things must be done by people in order to be justified and keep that justification. Of these acts, baptism is the first requirement. Consider these quotes:
Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 977).

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted to us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy (CCC, par. 2020).​

I do not see the Bible saying anywhere that we are justified by baptism. This would contradict the clear teaching of Rom. 3:20,28; 4:3; 5;1; and Eph. 2:8, which says salvation is by grace through faith, not grace through faith and baptism. However, according to Roman Catholicism, baptism is only the first sacrament of forgiveness. Good works, according to Roman Catholicism, are also required and are rewarded with going to heaven:
We can therefore hope in glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with grace of Christ (CCC, par. 1821).​

The above quote clearly states that heaven is the "eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ." Catholic theology asserts that works are predecessor to justification in direct contradiction to God's Word which states that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law" (Rom. 3:28). What are the deeds of the Law? Anything we do in hopes of getting or maintaining our righteousness before God.

In the CCC, par. 2010, it says, "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification." How does anyone merit for himself the undeserved kindness of God's grace? Grace is by definition unmerited favor. This is an utterly false teaching. So how does the Catholic church get around this apparent dilemma that grace is unmerited but it is obtained through our merits? It states, "Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of this life that God makes for us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and sanctify it" (CCC, par. 2023).

This is the crux of the problem. Roman Catholics theology asserts that God's grace is granted through baptism and infused into a person by the Holy Spirit. This then enables him or her to do good works which then are rewarded with heaven. Basically, this is no different from the theology of the cults which maintain that justification is by grace through faith and your works, whether it be baptism, going to "the true church," keeping certain laws, receiving the sacraments, or anything else you are required to do. In response, I turn to God's Word at Galatians 3:1-3:

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Does not the above Scripture clearly state that receiving God's Spirit is by faith and not by what we do? Does it not teach us that we cannot perfect our salvation by the works we do in the flesh? To receive Jesus (John 1:12) means to become the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19), which means a person is saved, justified. Is this salvation something we attained through our effort? Of course not! Is it something we maintain through our effort? Not at all. It is given to Christians by God and assured by God because it rests in what God has done and not in anything we have done - that is why salvation is by faith and not works. If it did rest in any way in our works, then our salvation could not be secure and we would end up trying to be good enough to get to heaven. That only leads to bondage to the Law and the result is a lack of assurance of salvation, a constant worry of not being good enough, and a repeated subjection to the church's teachings and requirements about what one must do to be saved. The only natural effect of such a teaching would be that you can lose your salvation over and over again and that you must perform the necessary requirements of the Catholic church to stay saved.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#2
And it's funny to see here on CC, many that bash Rome actually agree with her on justification.
 
W

Witness45

Guest
#3
And it's funny to see here on CC, many that bash Rome actually agree with her on justification.
Well, Catholics aren't the only ones by any means that believe in adding works into salvation unfortunately...
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#4
Well, Catholics aren't the only ones by any means that believe in adding works into salvation unfortunately...
True, but many are closer to Rome in their theology than they think, when they add anything of 'theirs' to justification.
 
Apr 22, 2014
648
5
0
#5
And it's funny to see here on CC, many that bash Rome actually agree with her on justification.




I don't know one Christian who agrees with Rome on justification.
Rome teaches justification by works, Whereas the Bible and Christians teach justification by faith.
 
Apr 22, 2014
648
5
0
#6
The following should help you engage any Roman Catholic about their Catholicism:

A group is non-Christian when it denies the essential doctrines of the Bible:

  • The deity of Christ, which involves the Trinity
  • The resurrection of Jesus
  • Salvation by grace alone

Unfortunately Catholics deny this third doctrine, Salvation by grace alone, and are therefore non-Christian. Does that mean that no Catholics are genuinely saved? I honestly can't say, however it is possible since they obviously don't understand the true gospel and therefore don't have true faith in Jesus. Therefore the most important thing is introducing them to the true Jesus who alone atones for their sins.

Now, the most effective way to speak about the issues of eternity to any Christian you suspect isn't trusting the savior, is not to get sidetracked from the essentials of salvation. Upon hearing a person's background, we may feel an obligation to speak to issues such as infant baptism, transubstantiation, etc. However, it is wise rather to build on the points of agreement between the Bible and the person's denomination, such as the virgin birth, the cross, and so on.

One point of agreement will almost certainly be the Ten Commandments. They are the key to bringing any religious person to a saving knowledge of the gospel. After someone is converted to Jesus Christ, the Bible will come alive and he/she will be led into all truth by the indwelling Holy Spirit. God's Word will then give them light, and he/she will forsake religious tradition as he is led by God.

While there are strong biblical arguments that may convince unregenerate people that their church's traditions contradict Holy Scripture, there is a difficulty. Some religious people hold the teachings of their church to be on par with, or of greater authority than, Holy Scripture. It is therefore often futile to try to convince them intellectually that their trust should be in the person of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own righteousness or in their church traditions. For this reason we should aim at the conscience, rather than the intellect. Take sinners through the Law of God (the Commandments) to show them that they are condemned despite their works, and strongly emphasize that we are saved by grace, and grace alone, rather than by trusting in our own righteousness or religious traditions.

If they are open to the gospel, and are interested in what God's Word says in reference to their church's teachings, they will listen to scripture. For example, in Matthew 8:14 we see that Peter (whom the Roman Catholic church maintains was the first pope) was married, as were many of the other apostles (see 1 Corinthians 9:5).

Justification is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is a legal action in that God declares the sinner righteous - as though he has satisfied the Law of God. This Justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood: "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9). Justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7) that comes through faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1). Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12) and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12; 1 Pet. 2:24), and in so doing are justified by God. The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8,9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:13), something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10). However, Roman Catholic doctrine denies justification by faith alone and says: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Counsel of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

Anathema, according to Catholic theology, means excommunication, "the exclusion of a sinner from the society of the faithful." Roman Catholic theology therefore pronounces a curse of excommunication, of being outside the camp of Christ, if you believe that you are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus.

Does the Roman Catholic church specifically state that we are "saved by grace and works"? Not that I am aware of. But, when the Roman Catholic church negates justification by faith alone, it necessarily implies that we must do something for justification, for if it is not by faith alone, then it must be by faith and something.

At this point many Catholics appeal to James 2:24, which says, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." But the context of James is speaking of dead faith as opposed to living, saving faith. James states that if you "say" you have faith but have no works (James 2:14), that faith cannot save you because it is dead faith (v. 17). In other words, mere intellectual acknowledgement of Christ is a dead faith that produces no regeneration and no change in a person's life. This faith does not justify. Rather, it is only that real and believing faith in Christ that results in justification. Someone who is truly Justified is saved and regenerated, and the results of true saving faith are manifested in the changed life of the one justified by faith alone. Real faith produces good works, but it isn't these works that save you. Good works are the effect of salvation, not the cause of it in any way and they certainly do not help anyone keep their salvation.

The Bible maintains that justification is not by works in any way but is by grace through faith in Christ and His sacrifice alone. The Bible says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" (Rom. 10:9). Furthermore, the Bible states explicitly: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9).

Catholicism teaches that certain things must be done by people in order to be justified and keep that justification. Of these acts, baptism is the first requirement. Consider these quotes:
Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 977).

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted to us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy (CCC, par. 2020).​

I do not see the Bible saying anywhere that we are justified by baptism. This would contradict the clear teaching of Rom. 3:20,28; 4:3; 5;1; and Eph. 2:8, which says salvation is by grace through faith, not grace through faith and baptism. However, according to Roman Catholicism, baptism is only the first sacrament of forgiveness. Good works, according to Roman Catholicism, are also required and are rewarded with going to heaven:
We can therefore hope in glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with grace of Christ (CCC, par. 1821).​

The above quote clearly states that heaven is the "eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ." Catholic theology asserts that works are predecessor to justification in direct contradiction to God's Word which states that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law" (Rom. 3:28). What are the deeds of the Law? Anything we do in hopes of getting or maintaining our righteousness before God.

In the CCC, par. 2010, it says, "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification." How does anyone merit for himself the undeserved kindness of God's grace? Grace is by definition unmerited favor. This is an utterly false teaching. So how does the Catholic church get around this apparent dilemma that grace is unmerited but it is obtained through our merits? It states, "Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of this life that God makes for us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and sanctify it" (CCC, par. 2023).

This is the crux of the problem. Roman Catholics theology asserts that God's grace is granted through baptism and infused into a person by the Holy Spirit. This then enables him or her to do good works which then are rewarded with heaven. Basically, this is no different from the theology of the cults which maintain that justification is by grace through faith and your works, whether it be baptism, going to "the true church," keeping certain laws, receiving the sacraments, or anything else you are required to do. In response, I turn to God's Word at Galatians 3:1-3:

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Does not the above Scripture clearly state that receiving God's Spirit is by faith and not by what we do? Does it not teach us that we cannot perfect our salvation by the works we do in the flesh? To receive Jesus (John 1:12) means to become the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19), which means a person is saved, justified. Is this salvation something we attained through our effort? Of course not! Is it something we maintain through our effort? Not at all. It is given to Christians by God and assured by God because it rests in what God has done and not in anything we have done - that is why salvation is by faith and not works. If it did rest in any way in our works, then our salvation could not be secure and we would end up trying to be good enough to get to heaven. That only leads to bondage to the Law and the result is a lack of assurance of salvation, a constant worry of not being good enough, and a repeated subjection to the church's teachings and requirements about what one must do to be saved. The only natural effect of such a teaching would be that you can lose your salvation over and over again and that you must perform the necessary requirements of the Catholic church to stay saved.



According to the council of Trent, Paul lost his salvation, Because Paul [Inspired by God] said we are saved by grace through faith, NOT BY WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Catholics believe they are saved through water baptism, Yet most of them aren't baptised, because the dabbing or sprinkling of water on an infants forehead isn't baptism.
Every Greek meaning for baptism, is a TOTTAL IMMERSION.
And one has to believe, repent, get born again then chose to be baptised.
How can an infant, understand, believe, repent and chose to be born again.
 
Feb 21, 2014
5,672
18
0
#7
I don't know one Christian who agrees with Rome on justification.
Rome teaches justification by works, Whereas the Bible and Christians teach justification by faith.
Biblically it's a judicial reckoning in God's sight by faith, not of works. Romans 5.1; Ephesians 2.8-9
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#8
I don't know one Christian who agrees with Rome on justification.
Rome teaches justification by works, Whereas the Bible and Christians teach justification by faith.
I'm not going to name names, but just read thru the many threads dealing with 'law/grace' here on CC.
ALSO the operative word that marks the difference is faith ALONE.
 
Last edited:
Apr 22, 2014
648
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#9
Biblically it's a judicial reckoning in God's sight by faith, not of works. Romans 5.1; Ephesians 2.8-9


Justification and righteousness, are a free gift, We can't earn it, God has declared us righteous.
 
K

Kerim

Guest
#10
So what about Jesus second commandment on which (with the first one) hang all the law and the prophets?
Thank you.
 

skipp

Senior Member
Mar 6, 2014
654
7
0
#11
I'm not going to name names, but just read thru the many threads dealing with 'law/grace' here on CC.
ALSO the operative word that marks the difference is faith ALONE.
I've been to some extremely legalistic Protestant churches that (while looking down upon the Catholic Church) basically have the same view of justification as the Catholics without seeming to realize it. They may not agree with Rome in theory but their actions prove otherwise.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#12
Catholic, Protestant and Jew have three different 10 Commandment. The bible is the same but every body choose which is 10 commandment differently.

In Catholic, graven image is not mention. I think it design to bring statue of Jupiter to Vatican and change the name to Peter to be worship.


[h=2]Protestant[/h]
  1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
  3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
  5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God gives thee.
  6. Thou shalt not kill.
  7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  8. Thou shalt not steal.
  9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
[h=2]Jewish[/h]
  1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
  2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath in honor of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
  5. Honor thy father and thy mother; in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
  6. Thou shalt not kill.
  7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  8. Thou shalt not steal.
  9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

[h=2]Catholic[/h]
  1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
  3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
  4. Honor thy father and thy mother.
  5. Thou shalt not kill.
  6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  7. Thou shalt not steal.
  8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

Read more at Chart: Comparing the Ten Commandments - Beliefnet.com
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#13
You forgot one for the Jews...

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
 
K

Kerim

Guest
#14
You forgot one for the Jews...

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Of course God is ONE... Jesus and the Father are ONE, being unified by God's Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit.

But not everyone can perceive 'True Love'. Survival creatures (forming the majority in the world) are pre-programmed to take care of their flesh only and at any cost
. So it is IMPOSSIBLE for any survival being to perceive the possibility of two independent persons having ONE will and ONE power if they accept be unified by the Holy Spirit.
 
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#15
According to the council of Trent, Paul lost his salvation, Because Paul [Inspired by God] said we are saved by grace through faith, NOT BY WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Catholics believe they are saved through water baptism, Yet most of them aren't baptised, because the dabbing or sprinkling of water on an infants forehead isn't baptism.
Every Greek meaning for baptism, is a TOTTAL IMMERSION.
And one has to believe, repent, get born again then chose to be baptised.
How can an infant, understand, believe, repent and chose to be born again.
Nope...St. Paul is recognized as being in Heaven. Also, we don't believe works save us. We believe in justification through faith plus works. The two are not to be separated for if they are, they are both false and dead.
 
Feb 21, 2014
5,672
18
0
#16
Nope...St. Paul is recognized as being in Heaven. Also, we don't believe works save us. We believe in justification through faith plus works. The two are not to be separated for if they are, they are both false and dead.
Romans 11.6 is relevant here.
 
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#17
Catholic, Protestant and Jew have three different 10 Commandment. The bible is the same but every body choose which is 10 commandment differently.

In Catholic, graven image is not mention. I think it design to bring statue of Jupiter to Vatican and change the name to Peter to be worship.


Protestant


  1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
  3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
  5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God gives thee.
  6. Thou shalt not kill.
  7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  8. Thou shalt not steal.
  9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
Jewish


  1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
  2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath in honor of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
  5. Honor thy father and thy mother; in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
  6. Thou shalt not kill.
  7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  8. Thou shalt not steal.
  9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Catholic


  1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
  3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
  4. Honor thy father and thy mother.
  5. Thou shalt not kill.
  6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  7. Thou shalt not steal.
  8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

Read more at Chart: Comparing the Ten Commandments - Beliefnet.com
Actually that's rather vague. It depends on which Jewish sect one is part of. The Orthdox and Hasidim see the part of having no other gods as part of the first commandment. No one version of the ten commandments is accepted by all Christians. Methodists,Lutherans, and Episcopalians all do the list differently.
 
Apr 22, 2014
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Nope...St. Paul is recognized as being in Heaven. Also, we don't believe works save us. We believe in justification through faith plus works. The two are not to be separated for if they are, they are both false and dead.




The council of Trent disagrees with you about Paul, because Paul said we are saved by faith, NOT BY WORKS.
But Trent says, If any man says they are justified by faith alone without works, Let him be anathema.
No one is justified before God by works, Even faith and works.
 
Apr 22, 2014
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Are we to ignore James 2, and ALL of St. Paul's "if" statements?


James 2, Doesn't mention works for salvation or justification before God.
Abraham was already a man of God before he offered Isaac.

What James was saying is, our works justify our claims, v18.
V 22 says Abraham works Activated and operated his faith.

A sick person can say they have faith, But unless they put actions [Works] to their faith, They will never activate their faith.
For instance, a crippled person might say they have faith to walk, But unless they get up and walk, They will be in a wheelchair, Until they activate their faith by waking.

Faith is an act, Bartimaeus, Put actions to his faith, By casting his garment away, His garment was his licence to beg.
The ten lepers put actions to their faith, The Bible says, "AS THEY WENT" they were healed.
The reason they went to the Priest was because they believed they were healed.
What if they didn't go??. They could have said, "But Lord, we can't go, we are lepers". But they believed and put actions to their faith.