Reject Paul and you're no follower of Christ

[MahogonySnail]

Some in here think they can reject Paul as an apostle and think they follow the Messiah Jesus Christ. A few scriptures to show otherwise:

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you, the nations; since I am the apostle of the nations, I glorify my ministry;

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of the apostle were worked out among you in all patience, in miracles and in wonders, and by works of power.

1Ti 2:7 To this I am ordained a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations, in faith and truth.


Rom 2:16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Paul's gospel was Christ's gospel and God will judge the world by the same gospel. If you reject Paul, you reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, you reject Christ Himself.

All true Christians can say, as the apostle Paul said about those who preach other gospels:

Gal 1:9 We have said it before, and now I say it again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel that is different from the one you accepted, may he be condemned to hell!

 

[Mobius]

EVERY ONE OF THOSE is FROM Paul.

FORGET the issue of Paul for a minute. If we accept your reasoning FOR making that claim, you realize we have to accept everybody else, who likewise
claims to be coming to us and speaking to us in Jesus' name ?

David Koresh claimed the same, there's this hispanic guy down in FL now that's claiming to be the second coming of Christ...

What kind of nonsense is THAT?

Well, then *I* say *I* follow Christ, so if you don't believe me, you're not following Christ. No? Would it help if I wrote it down for you?

Epic fail, dude.

No offense.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Paul was an apostle. As testified to by Jesus Christ Himself, and the 12 apostles.

You and other Jews are attempting to bring people into bondage under the Law of Moses. Paul wrote extensively against this in Galatians and Romans, Hebrews and Corinthians.

But I do know Messianic Jews who love and revere the apostle Paul and his teachings. The fact you don't proves whom you really serve.

 

[Mobius]

1) Yeshua never called Paul an apostle. In fact, I'm prepared to show that He called him a FALSE apostle.

2) I'm not Jewish, and I have never claimed to be.

3) The "law" of Moses is not bondage, and never was. I would caution any who claim to believe in Yeshua against disparaging the Torah, since A) He spoke highly of it and B) John 1 says He IS the Torah-made-flesh.

 

[MahogonySnail]

1) Yeshua never called Paul an apostle. In fact, I'm prepared to show that He called him a FALSE apostle.

Please show it.

2) I'm not Jewish, and I have never claimed to be.

Forgive me I mistook your avatar for religion instead of nationality.

3) The "law" of Moses is not bondage, and never was. I would caution any who claim to believe in Yeshua against disparaging the Torah, since A) He spoke highly of it and B) John 1 says He IS the Torah-made-flesh.

The law itself, no, but adhering to it for righteousness is and attempting to put others, gentiles under the law of Moses
is bondage. That includes dietrary, sabbath and circumcision etc observances which Paul taught are irrelevant.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Mobius .. You aren't Jewish?..

What kind of Bible do you use? Does it have any of Paul's letters in it?

 

[Thaddaeus]

1) Yeshua never called Paul an apostle. In fact, I'm prepared to show that He called him a FALSE apostle.

quote]
regardless if you are jewish or Christian or atheist don't say you are prepared to show us something that completely defiles the Christain Bible and Not come through with your statement show me also where Jesus said that paul was a false prophet that is after paul's encounter with Jesus through the Light that came from heaven

 

[Mobius]

YOU started the thread.

YOU made a claim that Yeshua AND His apostles supported Paul. I'm perfectly willing to play defense. Why pull back now? I believe I can show you more times where Paul clashed with the rest of the accepted Body of Messiah than times he had fellowship with them in good spirits, and holy love. But *I* didn't start a thread on this. You did.

How many times must we cover the same ground? No one EVER followed the Torah to attain righteousness. Not EVER. You will NOT find ANY statement supporting that belief, IN the Torah. It is NOT a Jewish belief, it a a Christian fallacy, because they don't care to educate themselves about their own Messiah's religion.

 

[1still_waters]

Peter would categorize anyone who dismisses Paul as ignorant and unstable.

Peter referred to him as a brother and didn't speak negatively of his letters

2 peter 3

14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[1still_waters]

Sooo if the apostle peter calls him a brother and speaks of Paul's writings as containing wisdom, I'd conclude the apostles accepted him.

 

[Thaddaeus]

YOU started the thread.

YOU made a claim that Yeshua AND His apostles supported Paul. I'm perfectly willing to play defense. Why pull back now? I believe I can show you more times where Paul clashed with the rest of the accepted Body of Messiah than times he had fellowship with them in good spirits, and holy love. But *I* didn't start a thread on this. You did.

How many times must we cover the same ground? No one EVER followed the Torah to attain righteousness. Not EVER. You will NOT find ANY statement supporting that belief, IN the Torah. It is NOT a Jewish belief, it a a Christian fallacy, because they don't care to educate themselves about their own Messiah's religion.

you just lost all crediblity or to say any crediblity that you had with Me, dude unless you produce what you boldly stated that you could against paul???? and we need that proof From the Holy Bible not some false writting that someone else wrote.

 

[Mobius]

Interesting.. And would you also say that HE accepted the APOSTLES?

Don't worry, I'll have a lengthy, biblical post soon enough. But having been ambushed here, it's just gonna have to wait until after dinner.

 

[Mobius]

Credibility?

Are you kidding me?

You have one among you openly preaching a racist version of the gospel, the WORST possible perversion of the Good News of He who came so that ALL men in ALL nations could be brought into the fold of the nation of G-d.

And instead of making a thread to call THAT hateful crap out, you all come at me? THIS is worse to you, than teaching racism in the name of Jesus?

I could make a statement about credibility myself, but I think this thread is already likely enough to get heated, I'll keep it to myself.

However, since I'm posting again, I can answer the charge in the thread title in a single passage- Mark 10.

Messiah CLEARLY lays out what is required to have eternal life, and guess what? Believing in Paul is not in there.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Interesting.. And would you also say that HE accepted the APOSTLES?

Don't worry, I'll have a lengthy, biblical post soon enough. But having been ambushed here, it's just gonna have to wait until after dinner.

Okay because you have us all in awe waiting for it.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Many non-christians unwittingly attack Paul especially Muslims tend to attack Paul, they think there is a weak spot in his theology and his Biblical testament, big mistake, they always fail. Paul was an intellectual and spiritual giant guided by the spirit of Christ, he even met the risen Christ and was martyred for His sake, anybody going against Paul might as well beat a granite pillar with their bare fists, your only going come off second best.

 

[lil-rush]

I accept Paul as scripture. I'll admit to that, but the fact that any Christian would think you have to accept Paul as scripture in order to be saved sickens and saddens me.

What confuses me is why you would think it is necessary to consider Paul is scripture in order to be saved if Paul himself never even said that. If I rejected Isaiah as scripture would that mean I could not be saved? Or maybe Hosea? Or Daniel? Or Jeremiah?

What is it about Paul that makes him so much more worthy of praise and worship than any other human that has lived on earth? I think the main problem here is not that people reject Paul as scripture. The main problem here is idolatry.

 

[Arel]

Some in here think they can reject Paul as an apostle and think they follow the Messiah Jesus Christ. A few scriptures to show otherwise:

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you, the nations; since I am the apostle of the nations, I glorify my ministry;

2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of the apostle were worked out among you in all patience, in miracles and in wonders, and by works of power.

1Ti 2:7 To this I am ordained a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations, in faith and truth.


Rom 2:16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Paul's gospel was Christ's gospel and God will judge the world by the same gospel. If you reject Paul, you reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, you reject Christ Himself.

All true Christians can say, as the apostle Paul said about those who preach other gospels:

Gal 1:9 We have said it before, and now I say it again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel that is different from the one you accepted, may he be condemned to hell!

lol.

"I have proof that Paul is Scripture!"
"Really? What is your proof?"
"He said he was!"

Henceforth, I declare myself an apostle. I met with G-d personally, and he wants me to write a few books that will be added to the canon. Deny the books I've written, and you all shall perish!

 

[MahogonySnail]

Lil-rush, I didn't say that a person must accept Paul's gospel to be saved, the bible itself says it:

Gal 1:9 We have said it before, and now I say it again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel that is different from the one you accepted, may he be condemned to hell!


I was hoping to see this supposed evidence about Paul being a false apostle. Nonetheless people such as this claim that the torah is not for righteousness yet these very same people claim we must uphold the sabbath, keep the dietry laws, and be circumcised and put an awful lot of emphasis on keeping the Jewish, and I emphasise JEWISH law. For a gentile such as myself and other gentiles this sort of doctrine is counter-productive to the gospel of grace by faith and puts people under bondage. Paul said in Galatians whoever tries to be justified by works of the law is under a curse and Christ profits them nothing. It's either Christ or nothing you can't have Christ + the Law it doesn't work.

 

[Definition_Christ]

lol.

"I have proof that Paul is Scripture!"
"Really? What is your proof?"
"He said he was!"

Henceforth, I declare myself an apostle. I met with G-d personally, and he wants me to write a few books that will be added to the canon. Deny the books I've written, and you all shall perish!

What about Peter calling Paul his brother ?... Let me just quote exactly what 1still_waters said.

2 Peter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

There you go, is Peter a fake apostle now also??

 

[MahogonySnail]

Admittedly the authorship of 2 Peter being written by the apostle Peter is questionable.
However the writings of Paul were circulated and read in the early church and he was indeed an apostle not of his own will but God's will and this was testified too by the apostles as recorded in the book of ACTS - written by LUKE. So there is independent evidence from non-Pauline authors that Paul was indeed an authorised apostle in the church.
So if you deny Paul is an apostle you also deny the apostleship of the 12 and deny the Church which Christ established which is another strong argument for why you cannot claim to follow Christ and yet deny Paul's teachings, it makes you a phoney and a fraud and I know of many Messianic believers who do uphold Paul's teachings and believe in them. Being Messianic or carrying the "Jewish" label gives no one the right to reject the apostleship of Paul.