Religon Vs. Science

[JustinFromTwinCities]

If both sides claim that each side cant be proven physically, how does each side know their side is true.

If the only thing a person uses to discern the nature of our reality is science, then they will only understand science and the things which science pertains to.

I use all available sources of information to discern what is true, so I think it could be said that I would have the greater likelihood of finding truth.

But that judgement is up to the person making it. The scientist will say I am foolish.

 

[JOHN1513]

Gen. 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Your friend
Jeremiah Howell

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

So your conceding you have no evidence?

I'll give you one more shot.. Out of all the 'historical, philosophical and ethical' evidence that you say you have.. Give me your best one.

Honestly, I am not here to convince you of anything. I am here to inform my brothers and sisters that you and those who share your beliefs don't have a leg to stand on, let alone attack our faith

 

[ColinCat]

Honestly, I am not here to convince you of anything. I am here to inform my brothers and sisters that you and those who share your beliefs don't have a leg to stand on, let alone attack our faith

I'm not attacking your faith, I'm questioning your claim.

Don't have a leg to stand on? Your the one not providing evidence to back up your claim. As soon as we have evidence we will believe.

We are only asking for the claims to be backed up. That's a perfectly logical standpoint to take when someone makes a fantastical claim... Yet you make it out to be the wrong position to take.

 

[Jeff_56]

Honestly, I am not here to convince you of anything. I am here to inform my brothers and sisters that you and those who share your beliefs don't have a leg to stand on, let alone attack our faith

you're simply in line with truth and right, of course. and yahweh agrees- the cat is without excuse and already is judged guilty for
denying the evidence of creation, according to yahweh's own word.

the penalty for being guilty is death, separate from life and from truth forever ; separate from christ the savior messiah king who will rule forever and forever.

the penalty is right and just. the creator yahweh says so, simple and true.

yahweh the creator also says that all of creation is enough evidence for anyone to see and to know that he is the creator, he exists and lives and has forever.

so man is guilty. man dies in his sin. yahweh allows no excuse.

 

[ColinCat]

you're simply in line with truth and right, of course. and yahweh agrees- the cat is without excuse and already is judged guilty for
denying the evidence of creation, according to yahweh's own word.

the penalty for being guilty is death, separate from life and from truth forever ; separate from christ the savior messiah king who will rule forever and forever.

the penalty is right and just. the creator yahweh says so, simple and true.

yahweh the creator also says that all of creation is enough evidence for anyone to see and to know that he is the creator, he exists and lives and has forever.

so man is guilty. man dies in his sin. yahweh allows no excuse.

That's great... But where is the evidence?

 

[stabbo]

If the only thing a person uses to discern the nature of our reality is science, then they will only understand science and the things which science pertains to.

I use all available sources of information to discern what is true, so I think it could be said that I would have the greater likelihood of finding truth.

But that judgement is up to the person making it. The scientist will say I am foolish.

I agree to that justin because life consists of many diffrent things, like the experience of art or the feeling of love, but how that effects us is scientifically observable and testable. Is this possible for the experiences people of faith have? what do you do to verify spiritual things.

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

I'm not attacking your faith, I'm questioning your claim.

Don't have a leg to stand on? Your the one not providing evidence to back up your claim. As soon as we have evidence we will believe.

We are only asking for the claims to be backed up. That's a perfectly logical standpoint to take when someone makes a fantastical claim... Yet you make it out to be the wrong position to take.

Whether or not it is the "wrong" one is up to you.

We exist. We have an explanation for that. You do not.

There is my first logical reason to believe the Bible over atheism.

So now you're going to say a bunch of nonsense about how my answer is a big cop out and I just believe because I have no other answer and I am ignorant.

You're going to say all the mysteries of the universe will someday be taught to us by science. We just need to have patience and faith.

 

[stabbo]

you're simply in line with truth and right, of course. and yahweh agrees- the cat is without excuse and already is judged guilty for
denying the evidence of creation, according to yahweh's own word.

the penalty for being guilty is death, separate from life and from truth forever ; separate from christ the savior messiah king who will rule forever and forever.

the penalty is right and just. the creator yahweh says so, simple and true.

yahweh the creator also says that all of creation is enough evidence for anyone to see and to know that he is the creator, he exists and lives and has forever.

so man is guilty. man dies in his sin. yahweh allows no excuse.

If you could change that would you, or do you accept it only because you are afraid of it being true.

 

[ColinCat]

Whether or not it is the "wrong" one is up to you.

We exist. We have an explanation for that. You do not.

There is my first logical reason to believe the Bible over atheism.

So now you're going to say a bunch of nonsense about how my answer is a big cop out and I just believe because I have no other answer and I am ignorant.

You're going to say all the mysteries of the universe will someday be taught to us by science. We just need to have time, patience and faith.

Every other religion has an explanation for why we are here. So that doesn't give you a logical edge. That's basically 'I don't know.. There for god' again.

We may never know the answers to some things, but that doesn't justify attaching supernatural explanations to things.

 

[Jeff_56]

If you could change that would you, or do you accept it only because you are afraid of it being true.

That's great... But where is the evidence?

this might be the only evidence you ever get in your short life. yahweh is righteous and just, and has decreed it. no one in heaven nor on earth nor under the earth can change it.
the only thing to fear is to tell yahweh who created all things and all life that he sent his son yahshua to die for you in vain -- he won't give you another chance after this life on earth, your life with no hope apart from what yahweh says, your life which might end today..>>

[h=1] Romans 1:20Revised Standard Version (RSV)[/h] [SUP]20 [/SUP]Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

I agree to that justin because life consists of many diffrent things, like the experience of art or the feeling of love, but how that effects us is scientifically observable and testable. Is this possible for the experiences people of faith have? what do you do to verify spiritual things.

We can observe some of the physical effects of love. The changes in hormones, the quickening of the pulse. We can observe how a persons behavior is changed when they are in love and the various areas of the brain that activate.
But physical observation can never express the depth and beauty of love to those who are observers.

In the same way, faith will naturally produce certain changes in the mind and body. Yet faith is personal.

I am the type of person who has to study ever aspect of a thing. I have always taken everything apart a hundred times to learn everything I can about it. So for me, I had to research every single religion and philosophy in depth before I came to the conclusion that the Bible was true. I consider that foundation as already having been laid. So now when I want to verify things which are spiritual, I use the Bible and the Holy Spirit to tell me.

The Bible (to me) is the most amazing thing you could ever use to verify things of the spirit. Everything and every situation you could think of can easily be answered by it. But it requires the Holy Spirit or wisdom from God to really be able to understand it. God said that if a person lacks wisdom, he should ask, and God will give it to him.

In the same way, an atheist. Who has laid the foundation that God does not exist. Will use that to verify spiritual things.
Which won't get him very far when it comes to discerning spiritual things lol. All roads lead to no

The reason why I think the Bible is the best way to discern spiritual things, is because I think it was created by God for that very purpose. Feelings cannot be trusted for insight into anything, because feelings are dependent on your worldview. Your mind cannot necessarily be trusted, because we are all born knowing nothing and we may not have the correct information to make a good decision. Men cannot be trusted, for every man believes a different thing and men are sinful.

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

As a tiny example. To me, this rings true to my soul in a personal way:

Galatians 5:19-20
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[ColinCat]

Justin, out of interest...

If somehow the whole abiogensis thing and then the evolution thing was proven to be true... Would you still believe in god?

If somehow the bible was proven to be fake, false etc.. Would you still believe in god?

 

[stabbo]

We can observe some of the physical effects of love. The changes in hormones, the quickening of the pulse. We can observe how a persons behavior is changed when they are in love and the various areas of the brain that activate.
But physical observation can never express the depth and beauty of love to those who are observers.

In the same way, faith will naturally produce certain changes in the mind and body. Yet faith is personal.

I am the type of person who has to study ever aspect of a thing. I have always taken everything apart a hundred times to learn everything I can about it. So for me, I had to research every single religion and philosophy in depth before I came to the conclusion that the Bible was true. I consider that foundation as already having been laid. So now when I want to verify things which are spiritual, I use the Bible and the Holy Spirit to tell me.

The Bible (to me) is the most amazing thing you could ever use to verify things of the spirit. Everything and every situation you could think of can easily be answered by it. But it requires the Holy Spirit or wisdom from God to really be able to understand it. God said that if a person lacks wisdom, he should ask, and God will give it to him.

In the same way, an atheist. Who has laid the foundation that God does not exist. Will use that to verify spiritual things.
Which won't get him very far when it comes to discerning spiritual things lol. All roads lead to no

The reason why I think the Bible is the best way to discern spiritual things, is because I think it was created by God for that very purpose. Feelings cannot be trusted for insight into anything, because feelings are dependent on your worldview. Your mind cannot necessarily be trusted, because we are all born knowing nothing and we may not have the correct information to make a good decision. Men cannot be trusted, for every man believes a different thing and men are sinful.

What did you think about all these other things you studied and why did you pick Jesus over everything else.

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

Every other religion has an explanation for why we are here. So that doesn't give you a logical edge. That's basically 'I don't know.. There for god' again.

We may never know the answers to some things, but that doesn't justify attaching supernatural explanations to things.

It also doesn't justify detaching spiritual explanations to things.
I am not content with the theory that we may never know the answers to things.
I am not going to wait around for Stephen Hawking to figure out why I exist, or if I exist for any reason at all.

I think we should seek it out for ourselves. What else do we have to lose?
When I was younger, before I was convinced that the Bible was true.
I decided that "If' God existed, then He must have wanted to make me. That "If" He existed, He would help me figure out who He is or else He is not worth worshipping and believing in. So I prayed and began to study.

You already know the conclusion to my own search.

 

[stabbo]

It also doesn't justify detaching spiritual explanations to things.
I am not content with the theory that we may never know the answers to things.
I am not going to wait around for Stephen Hawking to figure out why I exist, or if I exist for any reason at all.

I think we should seek it out for ourselves. What else do we have to lose?
When I was younger, before I was convinced that the Bible was true.
I decided that "If' God existed, then He must have wanted to make me. That "If" He existed, He would help me figure out who He is or else He is not worth worshipping and believing in. So I prayed and began to study.

You already know the conclusion to my own search.

This is a hypothetical question: If everything people have created (including christianity) was a lie, wouldnt you pick the best lie? now ask yourself, is christianity the best lie? When I did this I realised it wasnt the best lie.

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

What did you think about all these other things you studied and why did you pick Jesus over everything else.

I thought they were shallow, easily disprovable by historical and scientific inaccuracies, logical and doctrinal contradictions. They sounded like they were written by men who were trying to be religious sounding. The teachings didn't offer any great insights into all the questions I had, but instead left me with more unanswered questions. They didn't adequately provide a reason of why we were created. They didn't have a good explanation of how God created the world. Many of the gods described were sinful, selfish beings just like us, who were in no way worth loving or worshipping. They didn't explain in a good enough way, why is the world so messed up lol. Why does everyone do such dumb things and hurt each other. They didn't offer any good ways to fix the problems either. And many other things.

I mean, the Bible basically tells the entire history of the world, even the things that are going to happen in the future.
In comparison, no other holy book can claim that.
In the Bible, God says that a if a man claims to be a prophet, then everything he says must come true or else he was not sent from God. That makes perfect sense to me. And that automatically shortens the list of possible religions.
Every prophecy in the Bible has come true exactly as He said it would.

Also, a number of holy books don't even claim to be written by god. Just about god. Kind of makes them worthless in my opinion

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

This is a hypothetical question: If everything people have created (including christianity) was a lie, wouldnt you pick the best lie? now ask yourself, is christianity the best lie? When I did this I realised it wasnt the best lie.

I agree with you. If there was no God and all religions and holy books were created by men alone. Then I definitely would not choose Christianity. I probably wouldn't choose anything because I don't like to believe in something that I think is fake.

But I don't know, I probably would have become a freemason for all the worldly connections that can be made to become "successful".

 

[stabbo]

I thought they were shallow, easily disprovable by historical and scientific inaccuracies, logical and doctrinal contradictions. They sounded like they were written by men who were trying to be religious sounding. The teachings didn't offer any great insights into all the questions I had, but instead left me with more unanswered questions. They didn't adequately provide a reason of why we were created. They didn't have a good explanation of how God created the world. Many of the gods described were sinful, selfish beings just like us, who were in no way worth loving or worshipping. They didn't explain in a good enough way, why is the world so messed up lol. Why does everyone do such dumb things and hurt each other. They didn't offer any good ways to fix the problems either. And many other things.

I mean, the Bible basically tells the entire history of the world, even the things that are going to happen in the future.
In comparison, no other holy book can claim that.
In the Bible, God says that a if a man claims to be a prophet, then everything he says must come true or else he was not sent from God. That makes perfect sense to me. And that automatically shortens the list of possible religions.
Every prophecy in the Bible has come true exactly as He said it would.

Also, a number of holy books don't even claim to be written by god. Just about god. Kind of makes them worthless in my opinion

Justin, hasnt the God of the bible done crule things to his own creation to make the changes he wants.