Render unto Cesar.........

[atwhatcost]

We're familiar with that incident and its implications. Having served on a jury, as I was reading this morning this thought crossed my mind. If you are being questioned as a potential juror for a capital offense, the prosecutors might ask "Would you be willing to assign the death penalty in the event of a guilty verdict?"
I have wavered on this, first believing in a death penalty, then thinking a life sentence with no chance of parole would be sufficient. My reasoning is this: A death sentence would keep a person from heaven, therefore eliminating his chances of eternal salvation. Consequently that would ultimately be an eternal judgement, and only God should make that.
My understanding has become clearer on that and I will detail it another time.
What do you think? Would you give a man a death penalty? Does that sentence have a place in our society?

Since God is, chance has left the building. Since God is, chance is about as real as Santa Claus. I think you underestimate God. I think you spend too much time wondering how you would order things if you were God.

Who is to say the criminal getting the death penalty hasn't already been saved? There's a lot of time between conviction and trial. Who is to say God cannot save him between sentence and execution? With required appeals, it's usually a decade before the execution. Who is to say that the sentence is carried out? Charlie Manson got the death penalty.

Oh yeah. God has the last say.
John 6:38-40
38 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Chance has left the building. Nothing was left to chance because God is.

 

[crossnote]

I think that what he is saying is that if someone who is unsaved is executed, then they are going to go to hell. Contrariwise, if that same individual is given a life sentence in prison, then there is more time available for that individual to potentially repent unto salvation.

On the other hand, how many lives are spared from future murders when capital punishment is enforced as a deterrent lives which end up in hell because they weren't given mercy to live by the perpetrator?

 

[shotgunner]

The swords that Jesus told the disciples to go and by were for self defense, not carrying out the death penalty.

Again you are bringing you OT written ordinances that do not apply, and a misrendering of Romans 13 that I have addressed already. Minister of wrath for God does not always mean putting to death as Revelation 9:6 shows.

Again you have the examples of the woman in adultery, and the two cases of working on the Sabbath which all three under the Mosaic laws were punishable by death. But in the new covenant Jesus rebuked those who wanted to carry out those punishments on those caught in these acts.

The question is to you to; What Mosaic laws have you broken or not kept, and which of the 10 Commandments have you broken at one time or another ??? Should you be stoned and put to death to then ???

Again you have the examples of the woman in adultery, and the two cases of working on the Sabbath which all three under the Mosaic laws were punishable by death. But in the new covenant Jesus rebuked those who wanted to carry out those punishments on those caught in these acts.

You have to understand that Jesus in no way ever broke the OT law. He clarified it's interpretation at times but he did not break it. In the case of the woman in adultery, Jesus wanted to show mercy but the law was clear. Jesus used his words to make it a non issue. When the accusers walked away, the law became of no effect because the law said that she had to have two accusers. That's why Jesus asked "where are your accusers?"

In the other instances Jesus used scripture to clarify the law. He in no way broke the law. It was not an case of Jesus not agreeing with the law and simply not obeying it. From all scripture it is clear that there are some circumstances where death is warranted.

 

[atwhatcost]

According to both the OT and the NT it does. And yes I would sign a death penalty. Now I have to go into hiding here because I will be called everything but a lady for saying the death penalty is right.

I've never been called a lady on here. (My signature clarifies why. lol) That's not a bad thing.

 

[atwhatcost]

We are commanded in the new covenant to show LOVE, MERCY, and FORGIVENESS to all people, and we are commanded to minister to those who are in prison.

Where is love, mercy, and forgiveness in putting a person to death, and do you seek death first before giving the person the chance to be ministered to ???

We are not bound under the written ordinances of the law, nor are we called to follow the old letter of the law.
We are called to walk in the same love, mercy, and forgiveness that God shown to us through our Lord Jesus, are we still put to physical death for breaking any of the 10 Commandments ???

No, so why should we hold others to face physical death for their sins if the Lord took that punishment away for ours ???

My love and mercy is for the people the person slaughtered and their friends and family. I have nothing to forgive the murderer. He didn't do anything to me to need forgiveness for. You're point?

You're not bound by the OT is your problem. The Law is God. Lex Rex! That you're creating a god you can deal with is also your problem. I'm not buying that god simply because you can't deal with the real God.

 

[crossnote]

Imo, Death is an awesome power that should be restricted for God. We have seen how misuse of this power has brought nothing but havoc. We have a society today that says kill the prisoner they deserve it and will be a burden.
Kill the unborn, we don't have the resources. Kill grandma and grandpa we just don't have the resources and besides they are a burden.
When does it end?

Guess you never read of the countless times God told Israel to put such and such person and or nation to death.
God could have done it Himself.

 

[BarlyGurl]

You might not rejoice over such things, but I've personally witnessed many professing Christians do exactly that.

Several years ago, God graciously opened the door for me to teach a weekly Bible study at the home of an elderly unsaved Jewish man and his elderly wife who claimed to be saved. One week, one of their friends showed up for the study and she asked if she could say a prayer before we began the study. Seeing how it wasn't my home and seeing how both of the hosts agreed to her praying, I really had no say in the matter. Here was her prayer (word for word):

"Lord, please kill Osama bin Laden".

The two hosts said, "Amen!"...and I prepared myself to be crucified. I wasn't about to let this go and I tried to politely reason with them all that we ought to be praying for bin Laden's salvation instead. Well, they basically went berserk. The friend literally got up and started screaming and then she stormed out of the house. The host couple? Well, they suddenly remembered that they had something else to do that day and that they were also busy for the rest of their lives. That was literally the last time that I ever saw them.

That's quite a story..yikes! Thank you for recognizing that there are distinctions being made here.

 

[atwhatcost]

See here is the thing REBORN, I make an effort to NOT make derisive comments pointed at the members of CC. I DO make an effort to communicate clearly and succinctly and ask for more information to be sure I am accurately interpreting what is being said. SO reborn, You can come back and EXPLAIN how your post is appearing to be kinda snotty and sarcastic toward me? You are not required to agree with my position... YOU are required to agree with GOD otherwise it is REBELLION... and the only escape from that is REPENTANCE. SO.... in conclusion here... I am suggesting that you have two choices in addressing me in the future 1) show some respect and consideration in keeping with the CHRISTIAN spirit or 2) DO not address me at all... Thank you.

Why is it that so many times if there is disagreement it usually comes down to "disagree with me is the same as disagreeing with God. I am God's spokesperson on this subject?"

And why is it everyone else's duty to not address you? Funny thing. We cannot put ourselves on ignore. Only other people. (At least, I think. Really haven't tried it. lol)

Oh, and just so you don't feel a need to tell me why I too am disagreeing with God for daring to bring this up, I absolutely disagreed with Reborn on this one.

 

[crossnote]

Her "partner in crime" ought to have been brought before Jesus as well, but this doesn't alter the fact that Jesus didn't condemn her to the "death penalty" which her sin required under the Mosaic law. No, instead, He told her to "go and sin no more". I put down my "stones" years ago and I gave up sitting under gourds and waiting, nay, longing for, the judgment of God to come upon sinners as Jonah did as well.

Death penalty for adultery comes under the Mosaic law, not applicable to Gentiles.

 

[atwhatcost]

See here is the thing REBORN, I make an effort to NOT make derisive comments pointed at the members of CC. I DO make an effort to communicate clearly and succinctly and ask for more information to be sure I am accurately interpreting what is being said. SO reborn, You can come back and EXPLAIN how your post is appearing to be kinda snotty and sarcastic toward me? You are not required to agree with my position... YOU are required to agree with GOD otherwise it is REBELLION... and the only escape from that is REPENTANCE. SO.... in conclusion here... I am suggesting that you have two choices in addressing me in the future 1) show some respect and consideration in keeping with the CHRISTIAN spirit or 2) DO not address me at all... Thank you.

BTW, you make an effort? Really? I don't make much effort at all. Probably should, but I don't. I'm lousy at not doing that and yet I'm still even with you. This isn't the first time, (second time, third time, fifth time...), I've seen you go off. Maybe the problem is your effort. Ever consider letting God do the effort part some times?

 

[atwhatcost]

Vengeance is mine says the Lord!
I see the death penalty as revenge and that is for God.

If it isn't what God wants, then why did he tell us the times we should put someone to death? He does that often you know.

 

[KennethC]

Again you have the examples of the woman in adultery, and the two cases of working on the Sabbath which all three under the Mosaic laws were punishable by death. But in the new covenant Jesus rebuked those who wanted to carry out those punishments on those caught in these acts.

You have to understand that Jesus in no way ever broke the OT law. He clarified it's interpretation at times but he did not break it. In the case of the woman in adultery, Jesus wanted to show mercy but the law was clear. Jesus used his words to make it a non issue. When the accusers walked away, the law became of no effect because the law said that she had to have two accusers. That's why Jesus asked "where are your accusers?"

In the other instances Jesus used scripture to clarify the law. He in no way broke the law. It was not an case of Jesus not agreeing with the law and simply not obeying it. From all scripture it is clear that there are some circumstances where death is warranted.

You are already thinking of it in the wrong way by saying Jesus never broke the law.

Jesus is the Lawgiver (James 4:12) which means He has the right to change, adapt, or even do away with portions of the law by fulfilling those aspects. On the cross He fulfilled the sacrificial, the curse, and the remission for sins of the law.

You focus on the accusers walking away, and BarlyGurl focuses on that her partner was not brought forward also, but both of you seem to overlook the standing of what the Lord said and what it meant.

"He who is without sin cast the first stone"

This statement by the Lord means only those who are not guilty of sin have the right to make such judgment on carrying out the punishment by the law.

Lord Jesus is the only One who could have carried this out by His statement, but He said even He would not and sent her on her way and told her to sin no more. Showed her mercy and forgave her instead !!!

Remember also the bible in the NT does not say her partner has to be around, all it says is that let everything be established by 2-3 witnesses. There was well more then this to hold up that part of the law, but they walked away because Jesus showed them they were not worthy to make that call because they are guilty of sin also.

Jesus changed the law or did away with parts of it in other cases such as that with clean and unclean animals we can eat.
The NT shows all things are to be eaten now unless known it was offered to idols, the blood, and if strangled are still no go's.

Lord Jesus had every right to change or reestablish a better set of standards to go by in the new covenant, which He did in some cases. You however will find no place in the NT were all 613 Mosaic laws are called still binding on new covenant believers.

Again which of the laws and commandments have you broken, should you not be put to death also ???

If the curse of law does not apply to us it should not apply to others as well, or that is being a hypocrite if it applies to some but not others.

 

[crossnote]

The swords that Jesus told the disciples to go and by were for self defense, not carrying out the death penalty.

Again you are bringing you OT written ordinances that do not apply, and a misrendering of Romans 13 that I have addressed already. Minister of wrath for God does not always mean putting to death as Revelation 9:6 shows.

Again you have the examples of the woman in adultery, and the two cases of working on the Sabbath which all three under the Mosaic laws were punishable by death. But in the new covenant Jesus rebuked those who wanted to carry out those punishments on those caught in these acts.

The question is to you to; What Mosaic laws have you broken or not kept, and which of the 10 Commandments have you broken at one time or another ??? Should you be stoned and put to death to then ???

We are not talking about Jesus and his disciples swords but about the Christian and his role in govt. e.g. jury duty trying a murder case in which the death penalty is involved.
You keep bringing up the Mosaic law given to Israel...not applicable. What is applicable is God's injunction to ALL mankind in Gen 9:6...

Genesis 9:6 (KJV) Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

 

[dcontroversal]

I would support the death penalty...God has made the wicked for the day of destruction and someone like Ted Bundy has reached the end of their time under the sun....God has every one's time under the sun marked off and when they reach the end of that time they will cease to exist in the flesh....maybe for the mass murder who gets the death penalty his day of reckoning is the day he gets the electric chair for raping and murdering some little girl.

 

[BarlyGurl]

JOHN 8: …6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.

And what was the purpose of the "accusers" in the passage involving the woman caught in adultery?????

 

[KennethC]

We are not talking about Jesus and his disciples swords but about the Christian and his role in govt. e.g. jury duty trying a murder case in which the death penalty is involved.
You keep bringing up the Mosaic law given to Israel...not applicable. What is applicable is God's injunction to ALL mankind in Gen 9:6...

Genesis 9:6 has nothing to do with the Christian believer in the new covenant, and that is you bringing up the laws given by God from the OT not me.

This is why I mention the Mosaic laws because Genesis 9:6 was included in that Mosaic covenant, as well as the Noahic covenant. The new covenant we are commanded to walk in Love, Mercy, and Forgiveness, not sacrifice.

King David and Moses both were guilty of murdering another, did both of them get put to death ??? NO !!!

Apostle Paul was guilty of murder was he put to death ??? NO !!!

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

This above was said to gentiles not Jews as Galatia is in Turkey, as Apostle Paul said we are redeemed from the curse of the law. Meaning we do not face being put to death for breaking any of the laws or commandments, yet some of you still want to put that yoke of the law on others for their sins.

 

[KennethC]

JOHN 8: …6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.

And what was the purpose of the "accusers" in the passage involving the woman caught in adultery?????

Again He was showing that He requires mercy, not the curse of the law to be passed out, and Jesus answered back with a question to pose who is worthy enough to make this judgment of carrying out that curse. He who is without sin cast the first stone, but nobody was worthy as they were all guilty of sin as we all are which is why they threw the stones down and walked away.

Nobody is worthy to cast stones of making judgment on one's life as we are all guilty of sin and deserving of death also.

Do not cast stones' at another for their sins or expect to get them thrown back at you for you are guilty also !!!

 

[crossnote]

Genesis 9:6 has nothing to do with the Christian believer in the new covenant, and that is you bringing up the laws given by God from the OT not me.

This is why I mention the Mosaic laws because Genesis 9:6 was included in that Mosaic covenant, as well as the Noahic covenant. The new covenant we are commanded to walk in Love, Mercy, and Forgiveness, not sacrifice.

King David and Moses both were guilty of murdering another, did both of them get put to death ??? NO !!!

Apostle Paul was guilty of murder was he put to death ??? NO !!!

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

This above was said to gentiles not Jews as Galatia is in Turkey, as Apostle Paul said we are redeemed from the curse of the law. Meaning we do not face being put to death for breaking any of the laws or commandments, yet some of you still want to put that yoke of the law on others for their sins.

Last time. Gen 9:6 has everything to do with us as individuals, Christian or not. True, God has not given the Church the sword, He has given it to the government and in that we are to be obedient. Jury duty in no way is forbidden in the NT. If you're conscience bothers you as you serve in your civic duty then refrain, but don't criticize those who have a clear conscience in serving.
Your Gal 3:13 quote is not applicable.

 

[AceMichaels]

On the other hand, how many lives are spared from future murders when capital punishment is enforced as a deterrent lives which end up in hell because they weren't given mercy to live by the perpetrator?

It is not really a deterrent. Murder rates are not falling

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Death penalty for adultery comes under the Mosaic law, not applicable to Gentiles.

I'm sorry, but you're totally, totally wrong on this one. For starters, whether you or anybody else likes it or not, Paul taught that the law was given that every mouth might be stopped and that the whole world might become guilty before God (Romans 3:19)...and the whole world includes the Gentiles. For crying out loud, what got John the Baptist beheaded? It was telling a GENTILE king that it wasn't "lawful" for him to take his brother's wife. According to what "law"? THE LAW OF MOSES. Seriously, some people are so steeped in error that's been propagated BY THE CHURCH that they can't even see what's right before their own eyes in their own Bibles. Furthermore, are you insinuating that the woman who was caught in adultery was a Gentile? Upon what do you base that?