Rev 17, Who is the Woman? Jerusalem Vs Rome

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Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
114
63
#21
Hello Lucy,

I believe the designation "Mystery" as in Mystery Babylon, is not referring to the literal city of Babylon, but the pagan practices, the mystery religions of Babylon, of which the majority of can be found in the practices of Roman Catholicism.

Roman Catholicism is the mother of all pagan beliefs.

I disagree. I do know a lot about the paganism of Rome & Catholicism. It's an area of study I am quite familiar with.
But Rome isn't the "mother of all pagan beliefs" Rome wasn't established 6000 years ago.

I didn't say Mystery Babylon was a literal city. Read what I wrote. It was only one sentence. The woman is the false religion. But Revelation is quite clear she rides the beast which is empire. It's a religion controlling an empire. Although Rome seems to fit for many reasons, she is only a part of it. Don't read a Middle Eastern book only through Western goggles. It colours the view.


Nimrod was the beginning of 'pagan' empire.

Genesis 10:10
And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,106
315
83
#22
But Rome isn't the "mother of all pagan beliefs" Rome wasn't established 6000 years ago.

I didn't say Rome was established 600 years ago. What I said was that, within Roman Catholicism can be found most of the practices of the pagan practices of Babylon and I listed some of those practices. So please don't tell me that they don't exist within Roman Catholicism.

I didn't say Mystery Babylon was a literal city.
Again, I didn't say that you did. I was offering scriptural information regarding the woman who rides the beast as that city that sits on seven hills, and it's not Constantinople or Mecca.

I know who Mystery, Babylon is. When that antichrist is revealed, he is going to provide the power that the seat of the pope has wanted to regain, putting him and the RCC in a position to enforce their power over all of the inhabitants of the earth. Roman Catholicism is the catalyst for that one world religious system.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
173
0
#23
I disagree. I do know a lot about the paganism of Rome & Catholicism. It's an area of study I am quite familiar with.
But Rome isn't the "mother of all pagan beliefs" Rome wasn't established 6000 years ago.

I didn't say Mystery Babylon was a literal city. Read what I wrote. It was only one sentence. The woman is the false religion. But Revelation is quite clear she rides the beast which is empire. It's a religion controlling an empire. Although Rome seems to fit for many reasons, she is only a part of it. Don't read a Middle Eastern book only through Western goggles. It colours the view.


Nimrod was the beginning of 'pagan' empire.

Genesis 10:10
And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

There is much more that points to the RCC. The beast with seven heads and 10 horns seems to point to the European Common Market with 7 founding members and 10 charter members. This looks back to the 'Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne 800-1806 with its capitol at Aix de la Chapelle, Belgium. This in turn harks back to the Roman Western Empire which continued until 410A.D. This leaves a 390 year gap between the Western Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire; and a 151 year gap betweeen the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 and the founding of the European Common Market in 1957.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
48
#24
Rev 17, Who is the Woman? Jerusalem Vs Rome.


There are many good scriptural reasons to see things both ways, in my opinion.

I think that it is Rome. The woman sits on, is, the city of the seven hills/mountains which are the seven heads of the beast Roman Empire Rev 17:9, 18.

The woman was in the wilderness v 3. Jerusalem is not in the wilderness of the gentile nations.

======

Why do you think that it is Jerusalem?

Why do you think that it is Rome?

One is Revelation 17:10, how can it be the beast he saw if it"s in the pit? Revelation 17:8
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#25
The woman was 1st century Jerusalem upon whom the blood of the prophets would come:

Mat 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Mat 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Who does John say the blood was avenged upon:

Rev 18:20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens! Rejoice, you people of God! Rejoice, apostles and prophets! For God has judged her with the judgment she imposed on you.”

Why would John tell them to rejoice over any other city that was not guilty of killing the prophets and apostles?

Get yourself "Who is this Babylon" by Don K. Preston AB:

https://www.amazon.com/Who-This-Babylon-Don-Preston/dp/1937501027

Send me your address and I'll get them to deliver it to your mail box.

Brother Locutus,

Rome was guilty of killing Jesus, the apostles, John the Baptist, and countless others. So Rome would be guilty of this also? Don't you think?
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#26
I agree that the woman in scarlet represents the RCC.
Brother Marc,

Who was the woman of Rev 17 at the time that the Rev was given? say 66 ad- 96 ad approx.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
78
48
#27
But strange as it may seem, the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills."

This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles.

In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8[SUP]th[/SUP] century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was.

Those "seven hills" are easy to identify.

If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives:

1 - The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],

2 - The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],

3 - The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13).

4 - On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),

5 - The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],

6 - To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],

7 - And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."


Full text at:

The Seven Hills of Jerusalem
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#28
The woman is the false religion that rides the beast empire. Western Rome didn't cover Babylon, Persia, Greece, Egypt and Assyria.


Lucy,

The Roman iron nation beast is showing that the rule is over the people of Israel, not necessarily the land. So even after the Roman Empire falls in 476 ad, and someone else rules the land, Rome still has power over the scattered people of Israel, until they are restored to Jerusalem.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
173
0
#29
Brother Marc,

Who was the woman of Rev 17 at the time that the Rev was given? say 66 ad- 96 ad approx.
She was in the future at that time.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#30
I disagree. I do know a lot about the paganism of Rome & Catholicism. It's an area of study I am quite familiar with.
But Rome isn't the "mother of all pagan beliefs" Rome wasn't established 6000 years ago.
The mother of harlots was at the tower of Babel. This is where the human souls fell away from Jehovah worship after the cleansing flood. They turned to creation worship which took the form of sun worship, numerology, and other forms of Jehovah rejection. This would eventually end in the Caesar worship of the Roman Empire and the RCC.

I didn't say Mystery Babylon was a literal city.
Rev 17:18, "And the woman that thou sawest is that great city,..."


Read what I wrote. It was only one sentence. The woman is the false religion. But Revelation is quite clear she rides the beast which is empire. It's a religion controlling an empire. Although Rome seems to fit for many reasons, she is only a part of it. Don't read a Middle Eastern book only through Western goggles. It colours the view.


Nimrod was the beginning of 'pagan' empire.

Genesis 10:10
And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
.....................
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#31
One is Revelation 17:10, how can it be the beast he saw if it"s in the pit? Revelation 17:8
Brother iam,

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think that the beast was in the pit at the time of the writing because it says that the 6th head "is" at the time of the writing. Rev 17:10.
 

3angelsmsg

Junior Member
Mar 1, 2018
20
1
3
#32
But strange as it may seem, the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills."

This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles.

In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8[SUP]th[/SUP] century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was.

Those "seven hills" are easy to identify.

If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives:

1 - The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],

2 - The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],

3 - The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13).

4 - On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),

5 - The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],

6 - To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],

7 - And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."


Full text at:

The Seven Hills of Jerusalem
There are other identifying characteristics of the anti-christ beast not only that it is situated on sevens hill. What other characteristics fit all the beast of Daniel 7. The fourth terrible beast of Daniel is presented as the empiral Rome and later on pagan Rome. Similarly as in Revelation 17 this beast had 10 horns which represented 10 Kings, but among the 10 horns came up a little horn that speaks against the Most high. This little uproot three kings and afterwards there remain only 7 horns just like mentioned in Rev 17.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#33
There is much more that points to the RCC. The beast with seven heads and 10 horns seems to point to the European Common Market with 7 founding members and 10 charter members. This looks back to the 'Holy Roman Empire of Charlemagne 800-1806 with its capitol at Aix de la Chapelle, Belgium. This in turn harks back to the Roman Western Empire which continued until 410A.D. This leaves a 390 year gap between the Western Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire; and a 151 year gap betweeen the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 and the founding of the European Common Market in 1957.
All these things that you have mentioned must align with the statue in Daniel 2. The statue shows no gaps.

If we understand the woman as the false religion of Caesar worship in the RCC, then the iron legs/toes are a continual nation.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
48
#34
Brother iam,

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think that the beast was in the pit at the time of the writing because it says that the 6th head "is" at the time of the writing. Rev 17:10.

Look close, the beast he "saw" is not the 6th it is the 8th...
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
3,779
78
48
#35
There are only two cities that Revelation is dealing with (apart from the 7 churches dealt with in the intro) - the earthly Jerusalem (Rev 11:8 known figuratively as Sodom and Egypt) the other is the heavenly Jerusalem.

John makes no mention of a shift from "Sodom and Egypt" to any other city - this other city "imaginatively" is read into the text to fit futurist "theologies".
 
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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#36
Look close, the beast he "saw" is not the 6th it is the 8th...
Are you referring to v 8? v 11?

V 11 says that they all are the same beast, the Rome beast nation just has different phases and divisions. The iron legs/toes of the statue in Daniel 2 are Rome. This scarlet beast is Rome, It is the same as the 4th beast in Daniel 7.

John says that the 6th head "is", and Rome was not dead, in the pit, at that time.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
48
#37
Are you referring to v 8? v 11?

V 11 says that they all are the same beast, the Rome beast nation just has different phases and divisions. The iron legs/toes of the statue in Daniel 2 are Rome. This scarlet beast is Rome, It is the same as the 4th beast in Daniel 7.

John says that the 6th head "is", and Rome was not dead, in the pit, at that time.

Then is the one in the pit the same,thats what I ask you first...
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#38
There are only two cities that Revelation is dealing with (apart from the 7 churches dealt with in the intro) - the earthly Jerusalem (Rev 11:8 known figuratively as Sodom and Egypt) the other is the heavenly Jerusalem.
The beast is Rome, the iron legs/toes. If the beast is mentioned, it must be speaking of the city of Rome, because that is who the beast is. That is the "seat of the beast", where the woman sits.


John makes no mention of a shift
John does make a shift when he is taken to the wilderness v 3. He was in heaven, but then he was taken to the wilderness.


from "Sodom and Egypt" to any other city - this other city "imaginatively" is read into the text to fit futurist "theologies".
In the story of the scroll (Rev chs 4-11, The seals and trumpets) the withdrawing of blessings on the natural broken off branches is seen and Jerusalem is the 7th trumpet. This is where Jerusalem is called "Sodom and Egypt".

But notice how Jerusalem in that passage is not referred to as Babylon or a harlot. So in that context there is no connection to the woman in ch 17.

In ch 17 the woman is sitting on the beast city. If the beast is Rome, then the woman is Rome the city.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,527
44
48
#39
Then is the one in the pit the same,thats what I ask you first...
Brother iam,

I'm still having trouble understanding exactly what you are asking, but....

The beasts are all the same entity nation, Rome, basically. (iron, 4th beast, scarlet beast, sea beast, earth beast, woman Rev 17)

But they take different forms of that nation.

So even though one part of that nation dies, or is changed in form, the Roman beast is still alive.

The Roman Empire dies 476 ad, but still lives in the form of Caesar worship.

The iron legs don't end and then start up again, but they do change form.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
48
#40
hmm, there is no woman riding the beast in Daniel, hmm,theres no mention of an 8th till Revelation 17,,,he must have shown him a mystery...