Rev 22:18

[charisenexcelcis]

What is the significance of 153 if you care to explain? If we are into strange number games or numerology perhaps it might have significance. But according to theologians like Don Carson it has no special significance. He talked about this one in his one of his sermons I heard, how people take irrelevant facts from the bible and make a big thing out of it, when it is simply a fact and there's no special hidden meaning behind it. So whether it was 70 fish, 153 fish, or 200 fish, makes no difference. The important point is that they caught a lot of fish.

I think the importance of 153 is that it is such a specific number it lends internal evidence to the historical veracity of the Bible.

 

[Pete_Martinez]

Do you know that God even puts His Works above His Word? See where Jesus said something like "if you dont believe my words, at least believe me for the works I have done".

And do you know why he said that? Because his works verified the word!

 

[MahogonySnail]

I think the importance of 153 is that it is such a specific number it lends internal evidence to the historical veracity of the Bible.

How so? Maybe it was 155, or 150, or 153.5423 fish.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

How so? Maybe it was 155, or 150, or 153.5423 fish.

If the number was being made up after the fact, it is more likely that they would have used a round number or a number that had some numerological significance.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Is that to say that all round numbers in the bible are made up after the fact? 7 day creation? 40 years in the desert? hmm

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Is that to say that all round numbers in the bible are made up after the fact? 7 day creation? 40 years in the desert? hmm

No. But the presence of both significant and insignificant numbers lends creedence to the Bible's historicity.

 

[MahogonySnail]

So the numbers have historic value, and value of interest. But there is no intrinsic prophetic value in those numbers, so they can be safely removed, added, changed, or ignored. What do you think?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

So the numbers have historic value, and value of interest. But there is no intrinsic prophetic value in those numbers, so they can be safely removed, added, changed, or ignored. What do you think?

I think that they should neither be changed nor overemphasized. If indeed all scripture is God-breathed, and I believe it is, then to change it or to make it mean more than it is would dishonor His word. If the manuscript evidence indicated that copyist had inadverently changed it from 163, I wouldn't hesitate to correct it.

 

[VW]

I think that they should neither be changed nor overemphasized. If indeed all scripture is God-breathed, and I believe it is, then to change it or to make it mean more than it is would dishonor His word. If the manuscript evidence indicated that copyist had inadverently changed it from 163, I wouldn't hesitate to correct it.

Amen! Actually, the significance of the number of fish was that this event was a reminder to Peter of the first time he meet Jesus, and how they caught so many fish that they could not be numbered, such that the nets were tearing, and the boats were sinking. And it did not say that all of the fish were large, where in the second time when Jesus tells them to cast again, they catch all large fish, numbered, not one got away, and the nets were not strained, nor were the boats in danger of sinking.

Some think that this is also a parallel for the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the ingathering that came from that, and the second, (supposed,) outpouring, and the take from that.

I don't know if there is a second outpouring of the Spirit, but I tend to believe that there is.

 

[mpaper345]

It sounds like it is saying do not take away or add to the prophesy of the book of Revelation,but it does apply to the whole Bible for anything that takes away from God's word that hinders people from receiving salvation and the being in the truth would be a plague on whoever teaches such.

The reason that it is so important to not take away or add to the book of Revelation is because it has to do with us being faithful in the tribulation and to warn the world to not follow the antichrist system for it is going to fall and they will not prosper but they will be ****ed.

It is a warning for the Christian to not follow them and endure the presecution and for the world to not follow them and get right with God.

The prophesy is a testimony that God is true and exists for only God would know about future events and when the heathen see these things come to pass that hopefully they will turn from their wicked ways and follow God.

Matt

 

[loveschild]

The book is the bible.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I think that they should neither be changed nor overemphasized. If indeed all scripture is God-breathed, and I believe it is, then to change it or to make it mean more than it is would dishonor His word. If the manuscript evidence indicated that copyist had inadverently changed it from 163, I wouldn't hesitate to correct it.

All scripture is God-breathed - yes. But all scripture is also defined by man as to what constitutes scripture. Paul no where wrote that his own letters were God-breathed. Neither did a booming voice come from the clouds saying "these letters of Paul are written by Me". That was determined later by the popularity and circulation of the letters, and their usefulness to the faith.

Was the number 153 God-breathed? In a few ways it is not - the number 153 was a fact, whether the disciples counted how many fish they had, or it is an observer's estimate based on the size of the catch. The number 153 did not come via a prophetic revelation, nor did it come by a booming voice from the clouds "you have caught exactly 153 fish".

The question is would God care if this number was changed to 155, or 160? I think only from the point of view that it changes the historical record. Not that it has any long-lasting consequences for anyone's salvation justifying ones name being removed from the book of life.

Miraculous catch of fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Discussing some of these theories, theologian D. A. Carson suggests that "If the Evangelist has some symbolism in mind connected with the number 153, he has hidden it well,"[14] while other scholars note "No symbolic significance for the number of 153 fish in John 21:11 has received widespread support."[15]

 

[loveschild]

Acts 13:16
Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! Paul always made it clear that he was being directed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[MahogonySnail]

And sometimes Paul states clearly that he is giving his opinion, his own private judgement, and not a commandment from God:

1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

Are Paul's private judgements coming out of the mouth of God? Apparently not.

 

[loveschild]

If you are a follower of God you are praying daily your will be done in me Lord. Give me your wisdon, your revelations, your thoughts. Thats what all of us should be praying daily. Then our thoughts are Gods thoughts. Our minds are filled with God. Paul also makes it very clear that we are to push down our evil flesh always. We are not running the show. God is. Paul always made it very clear that he always wanted to be ruled by God not his own self. Right?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

All scripture is God-breathed - yes. But all scripture is also defined by man as to what constitutes scripture. Paul no where wrote that his own letters were God-breathed. Neither did a booming voice come from the clouds saying "these letters of Paul are written by Me". That was determined later by the popularity and circulation of the letters, and their usefulness to the faith.

Was the number 153 God-breathed? In a few ways it is not - the number 153 was a fact, whether the disciples counted how many fish they had, or it is an observer's estimate based on the size of the catch. The number 153 did not come via a prophetic revelation, nor did it come by a booming voice from the clouds "you have caught exactly 153 fish".

The question is would God care if this number was changed to 155, or 160? I think only from the point of view that it changes the historical record. Not that it has any long-lasting consequences for anyone's salvation justifying ones name being removed from the book of life.

Miraculous catch of fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Discussing some of these theories, theologian D. A. Carson suggests that "If the Evangelist has some symbolism in mind connected with the number 153, he has hidden it well,"[14] while other scholars note "No symbolic significance for the number of 153 fish in John 21:11 has received widespread support."[15]

First, if we view the NT as on the same level as the OT, and I do, then the principles of inspiration and interpretation that we apply to the OT also apply to the NT. In support of that, it appears that Peter put Paul's writings on the same level as the OT and the "gospel" was the center of apostolic preaching.
As for the rest, you are heading in an entirely different direction. I offered and explained my view of the 153 fish. If you want a different answer, ask a different question.

 

[MahogonySnail]

First, if we view the NT as on the same level as the OT, and I do, then the principles of inspiration and interpretation that we apply to the OT also apply to the NT. In support of that, it appears that Peter put Paul's writings on the same level as the OT and the "gospel" was the center of apostolic preaching.

That's true , as long as we realise that this view relies upon past proof and hindsight. We see the NT on the same level as the old now, only because some people canonised it.

But if you were a Jewish christian living in the time of Paul, you probably wouldn't have considered his letters as weighty or as much 'scripture' as the psalms, proverbs, Isaiah etc.

Paul rarely quotes his own 'scripture'. If he considered his own writings to be absolute authoritative scripture, he would have said to the Collosians, "as scripture says in 1 Corinthians.. etc etc". But he didn't, he appealed to their scripture - the old testament. I don't believe Paul considered his own letters as mystical, prophetic or weighty as Isaiah or Jeremiah or Genesis, as afterall they were mostly practical instructions to the churches under his authority. What is important are the prophetic and gospel truths that Paul communicates in those letters. I don't think when Paul said things like "send me some money", that is particularly prophetic or worthy of a 'name removed from the book of life' penalty for changing it.
The warning in revelation only appears to apply to prophecy.

Yes Paul sought God's will, but God may or may not have spoken about something. In which case he would give his best personal judgement. Paul knew the difference between a word actually from God, and a word from himself. He knew when he was speaking with the authority he had as an apostle, and when he was speaking as a frail human being.

 

[livingbygrace]

That's true , as long as we realise that this view relies upon past proof and hindsight. We see the NT on the same level as the old now, only because some people canonised it.

But if you were a Jewish christian living in the time of Paul, you probably wouldn't have considered his letters as weighty or as much 'scripture' as the psalms, proverbs, Isaiah etc.

Paul rarely quotes his own 'scripture'. If he considered his own writings to be absolute authoritative scripture, he would have said to the Collosians, "as scripture says in 1 Corinthians.. etc etc". But he didn't, he appealed to their scripture - the old testament. I don't believe Paul considered his own letters as mystical, prophetic or weighty as Isaiah or Jeremiah or Genesis, as afterall they were mostly practical instructions to the churches under his authority. What is important are the prophetic and gospel truths that Paul communicates in those letters. I don't think when Paul said things like "send me some money", that is particularly prophetic or worthy of a 'name removed from the book of life' penalty for changing it.
The warning in revelation only appears to apply to prophecy.

Yes Paul sought God's will, but God may or may not have spoken about something. In which case he would give his best personal judgement. Paul knew the difference between a word actually from God, and a word from himself. He knew when he was speaking with the authority he had as an apostle, and when he was speaking as a frail human being.

I believe it is good to remember that Paul received his message as a revelation from Christ himself. No-one taught him or instructed him in the Gospel that he was given to preach.

 

[Glowing]

I believe it is good to remember that Paul received his message as a revelation from Christ himself. No-one taught him or instructed him in the Gospel that he was given to preach.

About Rev: 22:18;By the time you have studied to this point, You would KNOW that the 1st & 2nd Tribulation,and the 1st & 2nd Death are now complete, WE can NOW get the Universe up and running again; and Literraly have OUR minds Blown away,as YAH begins Restoring HIS PARADISE EARTH!!!
PATICULARALY MT> ZION HIS Favourite Place in the UNIVERSE!!! Love & Peace Forever in CHRIST!!!

Oh Yeah! HE did say that HE Created the EARTH to be Inhabited FOREVER That's that!!!

 

[charisenexcelcis]

That's true , as long as we realise that this view relies upon past proof and hindsight. We see the NT on the same level as the old now, only because some people canonised it.

But if you were a Jewish christian living in the time of Paul, you probably wouldn't have considered his letters as weighty or as much 'scripture' as the psalms, proverbs, Isaiah etc.

Paul rarely quotes his own 'scripture'. If he considered his own writings to be absolute authoritative scripture, he would have said to the Collosians, "as scripture says in 1 Corinthians.. etc etc". But he didn't, he appealed to their scripture - the old testament. I don't believe Paul considered his own letters as mystical, prophetic or weighty as Isaiah or Jeremiah or Genesis, as afterall they were mostly practical instructions to the churches under his authority. What is important are the prophetic and gospel truths that Paul communicates in those letters. I don't think when Paul said things like "send me some money", that is particularly prophetic or worthy of a 'name removed from the book of life' penalty for changing it.
The warning in revelation only appears to apply to prophecy.

Yes Paul sought God's will, but God may or may not have spoken about something. In which case he would give his best personal judgement. Paul knew the difference between a word actually from God, and a word from himself. He knew when he was speaking with the authority he had as an apostle, and when he was speaking as a frail human being.

The danger in this view is that it falls to man to decide what is important and what is unimportant. Even the most insignificant of scripture has a purpose. The whole of scripture must be given the whole weight of scripture.