Revelation 13:15 Interpreted

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 8, 2019
160
32
28
#1
Revelation 13:15

“And it was allowed to give breath (life) to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.”



Interpretation:

Thomas Aquinas was praying one day in a chapel in front of the crucifix (image) and the figure on the cross became alive (breathing) and began speaking to Thomas telling him that he was pleased with what he had written.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Jesus-Speaks-to-Saint-Thomas-Aquinas&id=3534143


Thomas was a writer of extra-biblical theology and philosophy. In fact, Thomas Aquinas is considered to be one of the Catholic Church's greatest theologians and philosophers.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas


One such thing Thomas wrote about was the justification for executing heretics.

https://people.uwm.edu/carlin/st-thomas-aquinass-justification-for-the-inquisition/


Thomas wasn't just anyone. Thomas was a key member of the Dominican Order, which was instrumental in the inquisition.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Dominican_Order

During the inquisition people were persecuted for being “heretics” and were sometimes tortured and/or killed if they remained unrepentant and refused to worship the image that spoke to Thomas. Most heretics tended to believe a very simple form of Christianity, based on literal readings of the New Testament.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/in-case-you-missed-it-your-60-second-guide-to-heresy/

What a nightmare the Inquisition must have been for those that saw the evils of the roman church, and either had to follow these false doctrines or risk being branded a heretic and give up their life. Only those strongest in the faith likely persevered.

Now do you suppose that it was Jesus who spoke to Thomas from the crucifix (image) commending him for justifying the inquisition, or might this have been Satan that spoke to Thomas?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,498
879
113
#2
Revelation 13:15

“And it was allowed to give breath (life) to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.”



Interpretation:

Thomas Aquinas was praying one day in a chapel in front of the crucifix (image) and the figure on the cross became alive (breathing) and began speaking to Thomas telling him that he was pleased with what he had written.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Jesus-Speaks-to-Saint-Thomas-Aquinas&id=3534143


Thomas was a writer of extra-biblical theology and philosophy. In fact, Thomas Aquinas is considered to be one of the Catholic Church's greatest theologians and philosophers.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas


One such thing Thomas wrote about was the justification for executing heretics.

https://people.uwm.edu/carlin/st-thomas-aquinass-justification-for-the-inquisition/


Thomas wasn't just anyone. Thomas was a key member of the Dominican Order, which was instrumental in the inquisition.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Dominican_Order

During the inquisition people were persecuted for being “heretics” and were sometimes tortured and/or killed if they remained unrepentant and refused to worship the image that spoke to Thomas. Most heretics tended to believe a very simple form of Christianity, based on literal readings of the New Testament.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/in-case-you-missed-it-your-60-second-guide-to-heresy/

What a nightmare the Inquisition must have been for those that saw the evils of the roman church, and either had to follow these false doctrines or risk being branded a heretic and give up their life. Only those strongest in the faith likely persevered.

Now do you suppose that it was Jesus who spoke to Thomas from the crucifix (image) commending him for justifying the inquisition, or might this have been Satan that spoke to Thomas?
I would think Satan. The possibility of God working as a sign and wonder was already sealed up till the end of time when the last book was penned. Thomas was a heretic that denied the grace of God in Christ's work on the cross. He was like Paul before his conversion. I don't think Thomas was converted. He died hailing a unseen entity that some called Mary as a queen of heaven .Showing us he was not walking by faith that alone comes from hearing God through the scriptures . The one source of faith, alone
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,246
886
113
#3
Revelation 13:15

“And it was allowed to give breath (life) to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.”


Interpretation:

Thomas Aquinas was praying one day in a chapel in front of the crucifix (image) and the figure on the cross became alive (breathing) and began speaking to Thomas telling him that he was pleased with what he had written.

Now do you suppose that it was Jesus who spoke to Thomas from the crucifix (image) commending him for justifying the inquisition, or might this have been Satan that spoke to Thomas?
Hello Nebuchadnezzer,

The information regarding Thomas Aquinas is not correct, as the setting up of the image, which is done by the false prophet in honor of the beast, is yet a future event.

In Dan.9:24-27, he prophesies that seventy sevens have been determined upon your people (Israel) and their holy city (Jerusalem).

In Dan.9:27, the last seven years is described, which is still future. The ruler of verse 26, which is that future antichrist, will make a covenant with Israel for a one seven year period. In the middle of the seven years, the antichrist will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings which will have been going on throughout the first 3 1/2 years and will set up the "abomination of desolation" in the holy place within the future temple. I believe that this abomination is synonymous with the image of the beast which the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the beast.

Furthermore, the event of Thomas Aquinas could not be the fulfillment of the image of the beast, because at the end of that seven years is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

I would also add that, the word "Bdelugma" translated "abomination" is defined as "an abominable thing, an accursed thing. properly, what emits a foul odor and hence is disgustingly abhorrent (abominable, detestable); (figuratively) moral horror as a stench to God (like when people refuse to hear and obey His voice). Therefore, based on the definition, the image could not be representing the cross with Jesus as the One speaking to Thomas. Scripture also states that the image is an representation of the beast, not Christ. And that if anyone will not worship the beast, that he must be killed.
 
Feb 8, 2019
160
32
28
#4
Hello Ahwatukee,
Thanks for your response.

Daniel 9:24, 25 and the first sentence of 26 covers 69 of the 70 weeks (which I think you indicated).

The link below does a good job in explaining the fulfillment of the 483 year prophesy (or the 69 week prophesy) that is made in these verses; prophesy fulfillment of the coming messiah.

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/jesus-christ-the-real-story/the-bible-prophesied-the-exact-year-the-messiah-would-appear

It seems we both agree with this interpretation. So let us praise God for this!

---------------------------------------
The difference of opinion we have falls on this one week of prophesy that remains.
I see that this last week or 7 years most likely prophesies the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE),

It was during the First Jewish-Roman War when, "A foreign ruler and his army [swept] down like a mighty flood, leaving both the city and the temple in ruins". And when an "end to sacrifice and offering" occurred.

Furrthermore, I want to include two translations of the final sentence of Daniel 9:27:

Contemporary English Version
”Then the "Horrible Thing" that causes destruction will be put there. And it will stay there until the time God has decided to destroy this one who destroys.”

Good News Translation

“The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him."

The events of this last sentence appear to occur after the last week (7 years) and sounds like the foretelling of the placement of “The Dome of the Rock” at the site of the second temple. It sounds like the “Dome of the Rock” will remain there until the end.
----------------------------------------

Refusal to allow for the possibility of this interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 prevents fellow Christians from studying the Book of Revelation and seeing for themselves whether or not there is prophesy fulfillment in Revelation.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,246
886
113
#5
Hello Ahwatukee,
Thanks for your response.

Daniel 9:24, 25 and the first sentence of 26 covers 69 of the 70 weeks (which I think you indicated).

The link below does a good job in explaining the fulfillment of the 483 year prophesy (or the 69 week prophesy) that is made in these verses; prophesy fulfillment of the coming messiah.

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/jesus-christ-the-real-story/the-bible-prophesied-the-exact-year-the-messiah-would-appear

It seems we both agree with this interpretation. So let us praise God for this!

---------------------------------------
The difference of opinion we have falls on this one week of prophesy that remains.
I see that this last week or 7 years most likely prophesies the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE),

It was during the First Jewish-Roman War when, "A foreign ruler and his army [swept] down like a mighty flood, leaving both the city and the temple in ruins". And when an "end to sacrifice and offering" occurred.

Furthermore, I want to include two translations of the final sentence of Daniel 9:27:

Contemporary English Version
”Then the "Horrible Thing" that causes destruction will be put there. And it will stay there until the time God has decided to destroy this one who destroys.”

Good News Translation
“The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him."

The events of this last sentence appear to occur after the last week (7 years) and sounds like the foretelling of the placement of “The Dome of the Rock” at the site of the second temple. It sounds like the “Dome of the Rock” will remain there until the end.
----------------------------------------

Refusal to allow for the possibility of this interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 prevents fellow Christians from studying the Book of Revelation and seeing for themselves whether or not there is prophesy fulfillment in Revelation.

Hello again!

Below is the literal Greek translation of the last sentence of Dan.9:27:

"And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

When the ruler, that antichrist establishes his seven year covenant, that is what initiates that last seven years. In the middle of the seven years is when that ruler, the antichrist, causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease.

The last sentence regarding the decreed destruction that is poured out upon him (the antichrist), is referring to the end of the seven years when the Lord returns and has both the antichrist/beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire - Rev.19:20

Beginning of the seven years
= Antichrist establishes a seven year agreement

Middle of the seven years
= Antichrist stops sacrifice and offering and sets up the abomination which causes desolation

End of the seven years = Christ returns to the earth to end the age. Antichrist and false prophet are thrown alive into lake of fire

Regarding the dome of the rock, if it isn't destroyed prior to the end of the seven years, it will be when the seventh bowl is poured out. For scripture states that because of that great earthquake, the cities of the world will collapse. Also, Jesus will be ruling during the millennial kingdom from Jerusalem from the throne of king David, as declared from the following scriptures. There will be no Islam when Jesus returns. Any Muslim or any individuals belonging to any other religious system that did not specifically trust in Christ and who makes it through the time of God's wrath alive, will be killed by the Lord when He returns to end the age by that double-edge sword which will proceed from His mouth and that because they will not have believed in Him. - (Rev.19:21)

"Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this." - Isaiah 9:6-7

"You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” - Luke 1:31
 
Feb 8, 2019
160
32
28
#6
Daniel 7 has four beasts. Some people (not me) have interpreted these beasts as a progression of empires:
Beast 1: The Chaldean Empire (625 - 539 B.C.)
Beast 2: The Medo-Persian Empire (550- 330 B.C)
Beast 3: The Greek Empire -Hellenistic Period (323–146 BC)
Beast 4: The Roman Republic (The Roman era of Greek history began with the Corinthian defeat in the Battle of Corinth in 146 BC.)
which then turned into the Roman Empire at 44BC.

Here is what I see which corroborates that the 4th Beast is the Roman Republic/Empire:
Then, "a little horn grew up and plucked three of the first horns". This appears to foretell the transition of the Roman Republic to the rise of the Roman Empire, which transitioned through the first and/or second triumvirate (group of three men holding power).

As one might see there is a nice continuous progression in the prophesy of the 4 beasts in Daniel.

Following this logic, one might also look for this continuous progression in the prophesy of the beasts in Revelation.
For example, one might see the 1st beast in Revelation as the Roman Empire which gave way to the Second Beast which was the State church of the Roman Empire, which then became the catholic church. The two horns could be the Great Schism, you have the inquisition where believers were slain... so on and so forth you have a nice progression to where the modern-day Catholic Church might be represented as the Whore of Babylon. A nice progression might be herein Revelation.

But you are saying there is no such progression in Revelation. In fact there is at least a 2000 year gap in prophesy fulfillment, Yes?

Another Point I find hard to swallow is this:
For example, if these beasts in Daniel do not represent individual people, but entire empires then why wouldn't the beasts in Revelation also represent empires?
Why would it be concluded with absolute certainty that the 7-headed beast in Revelation only represents a one-headed man?

Let me restate it like this:
- The 3rd Beast in Daniel 7 has only 4 heads yet this beast most likely represents The Greek Empire (323–146 BC)
However,
- the 1st Beast in Revelation 13 has 7 heads, andmore horns and yet this larger, more fearsome beast is said to represent only one man which will rule for just 7 years?

Is this what you are saying?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,246
886
113
#7
Daniel 7 has four beasts. Some people (not me) have interpreted these beasts as a progression of empires:
Beast 1: The Chaldean Empire (625 - 539 B.C.)
Beast 2: The Medo-Persian Empire (550- 330 B.C)
Beast 3: The Greek Empire -Hellenistic Period (323–146 BC)
Beast 4: The Roman Republic (The Roman era of Greek history began with the Corinthian defeat in the Battle of Corinth in 146 BC.)
which then turned into the Roman Empire at 44BC.

Here is what I see which corroborates that the 4th Beast is the Roman Republic/Empire:
Then, "a little horn grew up and plucked three of the first horns". This appears to foretell the transition of the Roman Republic to the rise of the Roman Empire, which transitioned through the first and/or second triumvirate (group of three men holding power).

As one might see there is a nice continuous progression in the prophesy of the 4 beasts in Daniel.

Following this logic, one might also look for this continuous progression in the prophesy of the beasts in Revelation.
For example, one might see the 1st beast in Revelation as the Roman Empire which gave way to the Second Beast which was the State church of the Roman Empire, which then became the catholic church. The two horns could be the Great Schism, you have the inquisition where believers were slain... so on and so forth you have a nice progression to where the modern-day Catholic Church might be represented as the Whore of Babylon. A nice progression might be herein Revelation.

But you are saying there is no such progression in Revelation. In fact there is at least a 2000 year gap in prophesy fulfillment, Yes?

Another Point I find hard to swallow is this:
For example, if these beasts in Daniel do not represent individual people, but entire empires then why wouldn't the beasts in Revelation also represent empires?
Why would it be concluded with absolute certainty that the 7-headed beast in Revelation only represents a one-headed man?

Let me restate it like this:
- The 3rd Beast in Daniel 7 has only 4 heads yet this beast most likely represents The Greek Empire (323–146 BC)
However,
- the 1st Beast in Revelation 13 has 7 heads, andmore horns and yet this larger, more fearsome beast is said to represent only one man which will rule for just 7 years?

Is this what you are saying?
Greetings Nebuchadnezzar,

The description of the statue which God showed Nebuchadnezzar in a dream Daniel 2, is synonymous with the four beasts mentioned in Daniel 7.

Babylon = Head of gold & Lion

Medo/Persia = Chest and arms of silver & a bear

Greece = Belly and thighs of bronze & a Leopard

Rome
= Ten Toes partly of iron and backed clay & Fourth beast with iron teeth

The four heads of Greece have nothing to do with the seven heads of the beast in Revelation. In fact we are told in Rev.17 that the seven heads represent seven hills/mountains upon which the woman sits and they also represent seven kings, with an eighth king who belongs to the seven and who is going to his destruction.

Revelation 17 also tells us that "the woman you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth. At the time that John was receiving that information from the angel, Rome was that great city who ruled over the kings of the earth.

Rome is that fourth kingdom, which is pointing to us in the future to that false religious system coming from her, which is Roman Catholicism. She is that woman who rides the beast.

Rome/Vatican is that city that sits on and is famous for her seven hills/mountains

Rome/Vatican is that city that ruled over the kings of the earth and will again.

Rome is that religious system whose cardinals and bishops are dressed in purple and scarlet

I personally believe that one of the future popes is going to play the part of the false prophet and is the one who will perform those miracles, signs and wonders to deceive the inhabitants of the earth, which means that he will have all of the 1.2 plus billion devout in his hip pocket.

The ten toed kingdom made of partly iron and partly baked clay, is representing some of the strength that Rome had when it was pure iron and partly brittle/weak, in that the people will be a mixture and therefore will not be united.

The ten toes are synonymous with the ten kings in Revelation 17 who along with the beast will receive authority as kings in a short period of time. At that time, the earth will most likely be divided up into ten regions, with each king being over a region and giving all of their power and support to the beast.

It is important to understand that beast with seven heads mentioned in Revelation 12, 13 and 17 are the same beast.

Seven heads = Seven hills/mountains upon which the woman sits and also represents a succession of seven kings. At the time that John was receiving the message the angel said:

Five kings have fallen = At John's hearing of this, five of those kings had already ruled and gone

One is = King number six was ruling at the time John was receiving that message from the angel

The other has not yet come = King number seven was future to John and past to us

Eighth king = The beast who once was, now is not and yet will come. This is that angel of the Abyss referred to in Rev.9 who is the king over those demons representing locusts. When he comes out he will be the power behind the man of lawlessness. He is also the one who will kill the two witnesses during the middle of the seven years.

Ten kings = Unlike the previous kings who are succession of kings, these ten will rule concurrently with the beast at future time.
 

Attachments

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,498
879
113
#8
In Dan.9:27, the last seven years is described, which is still future. The ruler of verse 26, which is that future antichrist, will make a covenant with Israel for a one seven year period. In the middle of the seven years, the antichrist will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings which will have been going on throughout the first 3 1/2 years and will set up the "abomination of desolation" in the holy place within the future temple. I believe that this abomination is synonymous with the image of the beast which the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the beast.

Furthermore, the event of Thomas Aquinas could not be the fulfillment of the image of the beast, because at the end of that seven years is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

I would also add that, the word "Bdelugma" translated "abomination" is defined as "an abominable thing, an accursed thing. properly, what emits a foul odor and hence is disgustingly abhorrent (abominable, detestable); (figuratively) moral horror as a stench to God (like when people refuse to hear and obey His voice). Therefore, based on the definition, the image could not be representing the cross with Jesus as the One speaking to Thomas. Scripture also states that the image is an representation of the beast, not Christ. And that if anyone will not worship the beast, that he must be killed.
From my experience. I would think the "Holy Place" must first be identified. And was it filled temporally with the "abomination of desolation". What caused the abomination of desolation. What prevented it? And how will we know if something is standing there?
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
3,025
1,165
113
#9
Revelation 13:15

“And it was allowed to give breath (life) to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.”



Interpretation:

Thomas Aquinas was praying one day in a chapel in front of the crucifix (image) and the figure on the cross became alive (breathing) and began speaking to Thomas telling him that he was pleased with what he had written.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Jesus-Speaks-to-Saint-Thomas-Aquinas&id=3534143


Thomas was a writer of extra-biblical theology and philosophy. In fact, Thomas Aquinas is considered to be one of the Catholic Church's greatest theologians and philosophers.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas


One such thing Thomas wrote about was the justification for executing heretics.

https://people.uwm.edu/carlin/st-thomas-aquinass-justification-for-the-inquisition/


Thomas wasn't just anyone. Thomas was a key member of the Dominican Order, which was instrumental in the inquisition.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Dominican_Order

During the inquisition people were persecuted for being “heretics” and were sometimes tortured and/or killed if they remained unrepentant and refused to worship the image that spoke to Thomas. Most heretics tended to believe a very simple form of Christianity, based on literal readings of the New Testament.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/in-case-you-missed-it-your-60-second-guide-to-heresy/

What a nightmare the Inquisition must have been for those that saw the evils of the roman church, and either had to follow these false doctrines or risk being branded a heretic and give up their life. Only those strongest in the faith likely persevered.

Now do you suppose that it was Jesus who spoke to Thomas from the crucifix (image) commending him for justifying the inquisition, or might this have been Satan that spoke to Thomas?
Interesting the first part, it reminded me that we now have this technology for example cgi animation to make images speak, and people might believe them even if they are just images made to look like they are real. Im sure people can be easily sucked into watching images of the beast speaking. Its called TV.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,498
879
113
#10
Interesting the first part, it reminded me that we now have this technology for example cgi animation to make images speak, and people might believe them even if they are just images made to look like they are real. Im sure people can be easily sucked into watching images of the beast speaking. Its called TV.
I wonder what the first part of the mark meant to John when we heard the words on the island of Patmos . Did he have the understanding as to the mark ?Or did have to wait until technology advanced thousands of years later?

Did John understand it was the mark of Cain and was reminded of the blood of Abel who offered his brother Cain the gospel and he murdered his brother as in out of sight out of mind .rid the evidence seen, walk by sight .Why believe in a God not seen? What's next? Satellite imaging ?
 
Feb 8, 2019
160
32
28
#11
I agree with your assessment of the "Whore of Babylon".

The picture I attached shows fulfillment of Revelation 17:4

The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup of abominations and the impurity of her sexual immorality.”

If this is indeed true then I don't just see one of the future popes being the "False Prophet" or the "Man of Lawlessness". If this is indeed true then I see the whole succession of popes as the "False Prophet" or the "Man of Lawlessness".

Why would there be just one Man of Lawlessness to deceive just one generation of people? What I am seeing is that each and every generation is to have their own "Man of Lawlessness".



Greetings Nebuchadnezzar,

The description of the statue which God showed Nebuchadnezzar in a dream Daniel 2, is synonymous with the four beasts mentioned in Daniel 7.

Babylon = Head of gold & Lion

Medo/Persia = Chest and arms of silver & a bear

Greece = Belly and thighs of bronze & a Leopard

Rome = Ten Toes partly of iron and backed clay & Fourth beast with iron teeth

The four heads of Greece have nothing to do with the seven heads of the beast in Revelation. In fact we are told in Rev.17 that the seven heads represent seven hills/mountains upon which the woman sits and they also represent seven kings, with an eighth king who belongs to the seven and who is going to his destruction.

Revelation 17 also tells us that "the woman you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth. At the time that John was receiving that information from the angel, Rome was that great city who ruled over the kings of the earth.

Rome is that fourth kingdom, which is pointing to us in the future to that false religious system coming from her, which is Roman Catholicism. She is that woman who rides the beast.

Rome/Vatican is that city that sits on and is famous for her seven hills/mountains

Rome/Vatican is that city that ruled over the kings of the earth and will again.

Rome is that religious system whose cardinals and bishops are dressed in purple and scarlet

I personally believe that one of the future popes is going to play the part of the false prophet and is the one who will perform those miracles, signs and wonders to deceive the inhabitants of the earth, which means that he will have all of the 1.2 plus billion devout in his hip pocket.

The ten toed kingdom made of partly iron and partly baked clay, is representing some of the strength that Rome had when it was pure iron and partly brittle/weak, in that the people will be a mixture and therefore will not be united.

The ten toes are synonymous with the ten kings in Revelation 17 who along with the beast will receive authority as kings in a short period of time. At that time, the earth will most likely be divided up into ten regions, with each king being over a region and giving all of their power and support to the beast.

It is important to understand that beast with seven heads mentioned in Revelation 12, 13 and 17 are the same beast.

Seven heads = Seven hills/mountains upon which the woman sits and also represents a succession of seven kings. At the time that John was receiving the message the angel said:

Five kings have fallen = At John's hearing of this, five of those kings had already ruled and gone

One is = King number six was ruling at the time John was receiving that message from the angel

The other has not yet come = King number seven was future to John and past to us

Eighth king = The beast who once was, now is not and yet will come. This is that angel of the Abyss referred to in Rev.9 who is the king over those demons representing locusts. When he comes out he will be the power behind the man of lawlessness. He is also the one who will kill the two witnesses during the middle of the seven years.

Ten kings = Unlike the previous kings who are succession of kings, these ten will rule concurrently with the beast at future time.
 

Attachments

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,498
879
113
#12
I agree with your assessment of the "Whore of Babylon".

The picture I attached shows fulfillment of Revelation 17:4

The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup of abominations and the impurity of her sexual immorality.”

If this is indeed true then I don't just see one of the future popes being the "False Prophet" or the "Man of Lawlessness". If this is indeed true then I see the whole succession of popes as the "False Prophet" or the "Man of Lawlessness".

Why would there be just one Man of Lawlessness to deceive just one generation of people? What I am seeing is that each and every generation is to have their own "Man of Lawlessness".
Yes "many Man of Lawlessness". as antichrists many were their in the first century . Men standing in the Holy unseen place of God the place of faith .Putting their trust in man seen and not the promised Holy Spirit not seen seeking His approval as he teaches us and not that of men who lord it over other men called venrable. The Pope wears the daysman badge of dishonor proudly other can do it more subtlety.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
3,025
1,165
113
#13
I wonder what the first part of the mark meant to John when we heard the words on the island of Patmos . Did he have the understanding as to the mark ?Or did have to wait until technology advanced thousands of years later?

Did John understand it was the mark of Cain and was reminded of the blood of Abel who offered his brother Cain the gospel and he murdered his brother as in out of sight out of mind .rid the evidence seen, walk by sight .Why believe in a God not seen? What's next? Satellite imaging ?
Dont know sorry but we dont know what type of mark was on Cain although we know what it signified, that he was actually protected from anyone that tried to seek revenge and kill him.

As for technology, well John was given this revelation as a vision, and it was also showing him the hereafter, theres so much of Heaven that we cant really comprehend right now.

In terms of idolatry lots of people would rather worship something they can literally see, like an image, and tv is one of the biggest image makers around. But in the past they carved or molded statues and made paintings. Its just with movies and tv now the dissemination of images is massive and widespread. Sound was added to moving pictures and in sync only from the 192Os before that they would put words to go with the action on the screen.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,498
879
113
#14
Dont know sorry but we dont know what type of mark was on Cain although we know what it signified, that he was actually protected from anyone that tried to seek revenge and kill him.

As for technology, well John was given this revelation as a vision, and it was also showing him the hereafter, theres so much of Heaven that we cant really comprehend right now.

In terms of idolatry lots of people would rather worship something they can literally see, like an image, and tv is one of the biggest image makers around. But in the past they carved or molded statues and made paintings. Its just with movies and tv now the dissemination of images is massive and widespread. Sound was added to moving pictures and in sync only from the 192Os before that they would put words to go with the action on the screen.

I believe it was the mark of God's word. His word is law. He said ….Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold …...the promise whoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold had a way to be carried out. It was not a empty commandment. Perhaps he had some sort of a hedge around Cain to make sure the suffering was carried out .

it would seem that Job 3 uses that kind of idea .

Job 3:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave? Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath "hedged in"? For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.


However the Holy Spirit conveyed that to those who had a opportunity, the sentence was carried out .Cain never received the sabbath rest (believing God not seen) .His heart remained hard as a restless wanderer all the days of his life. No early death penalty a living hell seemed to be the goal . Remember Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. It is the punishment our savoir did bear for us giving His Spirit life in jeopardy of His own.. The gift of His great mercy.



And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a "mark" upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Geneisis 4:.3-15

The mark as law ,is in respect to the number of natural unconverted man 666 .a fugitive and a vagabond as a restless wanderer . No sabbath rest in their heart, no new born again spirit that will be raised on the last day..
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
2,835
1,979
113
#15
Why would there be just one Man of Lawlessness to deceive just one generation of people? What I am seeing is that each and every generation is to have their own "Man of Lawlessness".
Because of 2 thess 2:4!!

It doesnt say there are MEN of sin! But man, SINGULAR. ??
 
Feb 8, 2019
160
32
28
#16
I hear you, One Man. And I see this too. One Man... at a time.

2Thess 2:11 also tell us, “therefore God sends them a strong delusion”.

For example, Nazism was a delusion that deceived many but lasted for just one generation. After this its evil truths were revealed and seen by most. Therefore, Nazism was not a “strong delusion”. Any delusion that lasts for only one generation, no matter how big, is not a “strong delusion”.

But a delusion that deceives many for almost 2000 years, and still to this day almost no one sees it, now that is a “strong delusion”.

The Man of Lawlessness began as one Roman Emperor, and continued as the next Roman emperor, and the next... until he became the Pope, and then he became the next pope, and the pope after that....all the way to today's Pope. Francis is the Man of Lawlessness for today's generation.

To sum up Revelation:
1st Beast = Roman Empire
2nd Beast = Medievel Roman Church
Whore of Babylon = Modern Roman Church

Revelation 18:24 says, “And in her was found the blood of prophets and the saints”

How can the Whore of Babylon have the blood of prophets in her if she is still to the future? She can't. Therefore she is not future. She is past. How can she be past if she is the Modern Roman Church? Because she is past, present and future.

She is one and the same as the 1st Beast (Roman Empire that killed the Apostles/Prophets), and the 2nd Beast (Medieval Roman Church that killed the saints in the Inquisition). They are one and the same because they were all led by Satan's Man of Lawlessness.

We look at the Roman Church today and we can see the last verses in Rev. 17 may not be too far ahead.

Today we see the politio-media complex (the secular community) destroying Male CEOs, Male Politicians, and other powerful men, left and right by accusations of sexual misconduct. We also see the media slowly unveiling the sexual scandals and other corruption within the Roman Church. However, the politio-media complex (the secular community) are still holding back on the Roman Church. Why? Because it may not be the proper time yet.

If I had to make a Biblical Prediction here it is: Based on the prophesy in the last verses of Rev. 17 and all of 18 I would predict that not too distant in the future we will see the politio-media complex (the secular community) unveil the full extent of corruption and scandal within the Roman Church and they will ultimately destroy it.

Because of 2 thess 2:4!!

It doesnt say there are MEN of sin! But man, SINGULAR. ??
 
Feb 8, 2019
160
32
28
#17
I made a mistake in the last paragraph. I do NOT want to go into speculating on future events.
Please ignore final paragraph and completely strike, "and they will ultimately destroy it".

Thanks!

I hear you, One Man. And I see this too. One Man... at a time.

2Thess 2:11 also tell us, “therefore God sends them a strong delusion”.

For example, Nazism was a delusion that deceived many but lasted for just one generation. After this its evil truths were revealed and seen by most. Therefore, Nazism was not a “strong delusion”. Any delusion that lasts for only one generation, no matter how big, is not a “strong delusion”.

But a delusion that deceives many for almost 2000 years, and still to this day almost no one sees it, now that is a “strong delusion”.

The Man of Lawlessness began as one Roman Emperor, and continued as the next Roman emperor, and the next... until he became the Pope, and then he became the next pope, and the pope after that....all the way to today's Pope. Francis is the Man of Lawlessness for today's generation.

To sum up Revelation:
1st Beast = Roman Empire
2nd Beast = Medievel Roman Church
Whore of Babylon = Modern Roman Church

Revelation 18:24 says, “And in her was found the blood of prophets and the saints”

How can the Whore of Babylon have the blood of prophets in her if she is still to the future? She can't. Therefore she is not future. She is past. How can she be past if she is the Modern Roman Church? Because she is past, present and future.

She is one and the same as the 1st Beast (Roman Empire that killed the Apostles/Prophets), and the 2nd Beast (Medieval Roman Church that killed the saints in the Inquisition). They are one and the same because they were all led by Satan's Man of Lawlessness.

We look at the Roman Church today and we can see the last verses in Rev. 17 may not be too far ahead.

Today we see the politio-media complex (the secular community) destroying Male CEOs, Male Politicians, and other powerful men, left and right by accusations of sexual misconduct. We also see the media slowly unveiling the sexual scandals and other corruption within the Roman Church. However, the politio-media complex (the secular community) are still holding back on the Roman Church. Why? Because it may not be the proper time yet.

If I had to make a Biblical Prediction here it is: Based on the prophesy in the last verses of Rev. 17 and all of 18 I would predict that not too distant in the future we will see the politio-media complex (the secular community) unveil the full extent of corruption and scandal within the Roman Church and they will ultimately destroy it.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,246
886
113
#18
I hear you, One Man. And I see this too. One Man... at a time.

2Thess 2:11 also tell us, “therefore God sends them a strong delusion”.

For example, Nazism was a delusion that deceived many but lasted for just one generation. After this its evil truths were revealed and seen by most. Therefore, Nazism was not a “strong delusion”. Any delusion that lasts for only one generation, no matter how big, is not a “strong delusion”.

But a delusion that deceives many for almost 2000 years, and still to this day almost no one sees it, now that is a “strong delusion”.

The Man of Lawlessness began as one Roman Emperor, and continued as the next Roman emperor, and the next... until he became the Pope, and then he became the next pope, and the pope after that....all the way to today's Pope. Francis is the Man of Lawlessness for today's generation.

To sum up Revelation:
1st Beast = Roman Empire
2nd Beast = Medievel Roman Church
Whore of Babylon = Modern Roman Church

Revelation 18:24 says, “And in her was found the blood of prophets and the saints”

How can the Whore of Babylon have the blood of prophets in her if she is still to the future? She can't. Therefore she is not future. She is past. How can she be past if she is the Modern Roman Church? Because she is past, present and future.

She is one and the same as the 1st Beast (Roman Empire that killed the Apostles/Prophets), and the 2nd Beast (Medieval Roman Church that killed the saints in the Inquisition). They are one and the same because they were all led by Satan's Man of Lawlessness.

We look at the Roman Church today and we can see the last verses in Rev. 17 may not be too far ahead.

Today we see the politio-media complex (the secular community) destroying Male CEOs, Male Politicians, and other powerful men, left and right by accusations of sexual misconduct. We also see the media slowly unveiling the sexual scandals and other corruption within the Roman Church. However, the politio-media complex (the secular community) are still holding back on the Roman Church. Why? Because it may not be the proper time yet.

If I had to make a Biblical Prediction here it is: Based on the prophesy in the last verses of Rev. 17 and all of 18 I would predict that not too distant in the future we will see the politio-media complex (the secular community) unveil the full extent of corruption and scandal within the Roman Church and they will ultimately destroy it.
Now your interpretation is truly amazing, especially when the word of God tells us who four beasts are, which is not what you have listed.
 
Feb 8, 2019
160
32
28
#19
No man I thought we more or less agreed on the 4 Beasts of Daniel. Right?????

-------------------------------
Daniel 1st Beast = Babylon = Head of gold & Lion

Daniel 2nd Beast = Medo/Persia = Chest and arms of silver & a bear

Daniel 3rd Beast = Greece = Belly and thighs of bronze & a Leopard

Daniel 4th Beast = Rom[an Republic] = Ten Toes partly of iron and backed clay & Fourth beast with iron teeth
-------------------------------
(I think where we are seeing differently is with my view here)

Revelation 1st Beast (actually 5th Beast) = Roman Empire = 7 heads is the 7 dynasties of the Roman Empire w/ the Constantinian Dynasty being the head with the mortal wound that healed .

Revelation 2nd Beast (actually 6th Beast) = Roman Church = still in existence today as the "whore of Babylon".

Just as I see Ancient Rome split up as Beast 4 and Beast 5, I am seeing the Roman Church split up as Beast 6 and Whore of Babylon.

---- Sorry for any confusion, this is not easy to interpret or to explain ----


Now your interpretation is truly amazing, especially when the word of God tells us who four beasts are, which is not what you have listed.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,498
879
113
#20
Now your interpretation is truly amazing, especially when the word of God tells us who four beasts are, which is not what you have listed.
The beast are simply lying spirits as part of the legion. Lying spirits working in the heart of men seducing them to believe lies. They have no form of themselves. But take it from the beast of the field .(mankind)