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awelight

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I disagree with your promotion of (Historicism) in (Preterism) Antiochus Epiphanies 167BC wasnt fulfillment of Daniel 11:37, this is a future event that will take place in Jerusalem :)
Sorry but don't understand your reply.

I gave this information as additional information to the argument about the portion of Scripture related to "nor the desire of women". Obviously you did not read the post very closely.

The post in no way reflects my End Days view. Scripture teaches the Pre-Trib, pre-millennial future.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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The post in no way reflects my End Days view. Scripture teaches the Pre-Trib, pre-millennial future.
There Is No Such Thing As A Pre-Trib Rapture Found In Scripture (Fact)

There Will Be No Future Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns "Immediately After The Tribulation" In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving The Heavens and Earth By Fire (The End Of The World)
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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There Is No Such Thing As A Pre-Trib Rapture Found In Scripture (Fact)

There Will Be No Future Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns "Immediately After The Tribulation" In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving The Heavens and Earth By Fire (The End Of The World)
You can doubt a pretrib rapture til' the cows come home, but all it will gain you will be to be left behind when it takes place. I wonder why anyone would chose to stay behind and be overcome, when God has made an escape plan.
 

Truth7t7

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You can doubt a pretrib rapture til' the cows come home, but all it will gain you will be to be left behind when it takes place. I wonder why anyone would chose to stay behind and be overcome, when God has made an escape plan.

You can claim a pre-trib rapture until the cows come home, it's not found in scripture

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 will rule the tribulation through plagues, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the (Sealed) church on earth is protected

Revelation 11:3-6KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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It takes getting used to I suppose but pre trib rapture is an past tense theory,preterism is as where beginners dwell and the reason why is as in the past(as well as now) everyone's preference is to have this story told in an way that depicts it somewhere else in time other than the present. As long as we will win the war then we will receive the see'ers who say what thing there is to do that is comfortable to our manner of thinking,,, this is the greatest of traps devised by the Devil to place it in the past where it cannot harm you or in the future where you are now are safe.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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If I may interject a thought into this debate. First it seems a bit off topic to get hung up on this point. But here is something for you to consider by Albert Barnes:

Nor the desire of women - The phrase “the desire of women” is in itself ambiguous, and may either mean what they desire, that is, what is agreeable to them, or what they commonly seek, and for which they would plead; or it may mean his own desire - that is, that he would not be restrained by the desire of women, by any regard for women, for honorable matrimony, or by irregular passion. The phrase here is probably to be taken in the former sense, as this best suits the connection. There has been great variety in the interpretation of this expression. Some have maintained that it cannot be applicable to Antiochus at all, since he was a man eminently licentious and under the influence of abandoned women. Jerome, in loc., John D. Michaelis, Dereser, Gesenius, and Lengerke suppose that this means that he would not regard the beautiful statue of the goddess Venus whose temple was in Elymais, which he plundered.
Staudlin and Dathe, that he would not regard the weeping or tears of women - that is, that he would be cruel. Bertholdt, that he would not spare little children, the object of a mother’s love - that is, that he would be a cruel tyrant. Jerome renders it, Et erit in concupiscentiis faminarum, and explains it of unbridled lust, and applies it principally to Antiochus. Elliott, strangely it seems to me (Apocalypse, iv. 152), interprets it as referring to what was so much the object of desire among the Hebrew women - the Messiah, the promised seed of the woman; and he says that he had found this opinion hinted at by Faber on the Prophecies (Ed. 5), i. 380-385. Others expound it as signifying that he would not regard honorable matrimony, but would be given to unlawful pleasures. It may not be practicable to determine with certainty the meaning of the expression, but it seems to me that the design of the whole is to set forth the impiety and hard-heartedness of Antiochus. He would not regard the gods of his fathers; that is, he would not be controlled by any of the principles of the religion in which he had been educated, but would set them all at defiance, and would do as he pleased; and, in like manner, he would be unaffected by the influences derived from the female character - would disregard the objects that were nearest to their hearts, their sentiments of kindness and compassion; their pleadings and their tears; he would be a cruel tyrant, alike regardless of all the restraints derived from heaven and earth - the best influences from above and from below.
It is not necessary to say that this agrees exactly with the character of Antiochus. He was sensual and corrupt, and given to licentious indulgence, and was incapable of honorable and pure love, and was a stranger to all those bland and pure affections produced by intercourse with refined and enlightened females. If one wishes to describe a high state of tyranny and depravity in a man, it cannot be done better than by saying that he disregards whatever is attractive and interesting to a virtuous female mind.

I would agree with the conclusion that is highlighted.
It's not about Antiochus, it's about the End Time Anti-Christ, and it states his REGARDS for what won desire, he has none, he could care less what women think, that is what ot means.

NOW THINK, what kind of Nation is the USA now, and most of these Global SJW Nationaround the world? Effeminate Nations that allow the nations to be ruled by BAD PEOPLE like liberals because they give a SOB STORY and many women, and nowadays been men, have that maternal instinct to feel sorry via an SOB STORY and thus we get a 55 percent vote for an SOB STORYTELLER like Bill Clinton, or even someone like George Bush who was another one that was a Globalist who tried to be a COMPASIONETE CONSERVATIVE. it's all about trying to move that Soccer Mom needle. This man will be just the opposite, hes is going to be a RUTHLESS RULER, if some women are demanding he stop this, or that tactic, hes going to tell them to mind their own business. The point is, it has nothing to do with him being a homosexual like many have pegged him because of this verse.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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Chapter Four

I. The First Vision, 1-4,
This is the same vision given to Ezekiel in 1:1-14 and 10:1-22.

A. This scene is designed to do one thing and that is to impress upon our minds the glory of God and the majesty and grandeur of the throne room. There is no way to stand before such a scene and not be stricken with a sense of awe. Why is this vision focused on the throne room? Because judgment is about to be administered. The Judge is on the throne and wrath is about to be poured out.
REV. 4 & 5

Rev. 4 is the Raptured Church in Heaven as seen via the 24 Elders who have three things the Churches were promised in chapters 2 and 3, the Rev. 2:10 OVERCOMERS are promised CROWNS, the Rev. 3:5 OVERCOMERS are promised White Raiment, and the Rev. 3:21 OVERCOMERS were promised to sit amidst God's THRONES. Thus, these 24 Elders having all three of these in Rev. 4:4 show us the 24 Elders are CODE for the Church in Heaven before the Seals are ever opened. We thus see in REv. 4:1 that the door being opened is a hint at the Rapture via the Shofar, via Jesus sounding as a Trump. We see in Rev. 5:9 that these men are Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

We are shown in Rev. 4 the Glory of the Lord God and in Rev. 5 the Worthiness of the Lamb, the Redeemer of all mankind.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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Chapter Six
It must be remembered that Revelation does NOT reveal a series of sequential events stretching from chapter two to chapter twenty-two. The seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven bowls reveal different aspects of the same series of events. Do not try to get all wrapped up in the symbolism. It is the scene that is important. We are not given explanations for all of the symbols that appear. Instead, try to view the scene as a whole. The scene of chapter six is one of deteriorating social climate and a struggle with persecuting powers? Chapter six is a condensed reflection of Jesus' pronouncement of judgment in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

I. The First Four Seals and the Four Horsemen, 1-8.
The color of each individual horse represents the mission of its rider. Much speculation has been offered for the identity of these riders, especially the ride of the white horse, but notice, the only identification chapter six gives us of these riders in each case is a state of being. These riders could be the four living creature themselves or they may be nothing more than the personifications of certain conditions of social climate of the time – peace, war, distress, and death.
The 7 Seals of Revelation chapter 6

The Seals are NOT ACTIONABLE, they are like unto locks on a door so to speak. Why would we be able to read a king's message to his front line if it has 3 Wax Seals on it and only two have been broken? The whole "SEAL THING" means nothing can be read until every wax seal is broken, that is the intended message being sent by Jesus, the number 7 means COMPLETENESS thus God completely has the Judgment scrolls LOCKED DOWN until all 7 Seals are unlocked or broken.

The Seals are Jesus Prophesying just before the Judgments are blown:

1.) Jesus opens the First Seal and Prophesies about a coming Conqueror who will conquer many peoples/nations over a 42-month period of time. (White Horse/Anti-Christ/Beast)

2.) Jesus opens the Second Seal and Prophesies that this Anti-Christ will take Peace away (Dan. 8:25) over a 42-month period of time, thus he BRINGS WARS. (Red Horse)

3.) Jesus opens the Third Seal and Prophesies that this coming tyrant Beast will bring Famine via his wars over a coming 42-month period of time. (Black Horse)

4.) Jesus opens the Fourth Seal and Prophesies that this coming Little Horn/Anti-Christ/Man of Sin will bring Sickness, Death and the Grave over a 42-month period. (Pale Green Horse)

5.) Jesus opens the Fifth Seal and Prophesies that this tyrant Beast Ruler will Martyr many Christian peoples (who repent after the Rapture) over a coming 42-month period.

6.) Jesus opens the Six Seal and Prophesies of the coming 42-month Day of the Lord which is God's Wrath that starts with the Rev. 8 asteroid strike. This is why he "PROPHESIES" about a coming day of Darkness in Seal #6. About the Heavens being SHAKEN (Satan is cast down to earth at the 1260 middle of the week event and thus chases the Woman for 1260 days). The Sun and Moon's Light are diminished via Trump #4, and that is when THIS PROPHESY comes true. And that is also when the Joel 2:31 Prophesy comes true. The 6th Seal leaves one more seal to be opened by Jesus before this Judgment Scroll can be read from. We can't read the 7 Sealed Scroll with only 6 Seals off of it any more than we can open a closet door with 6 of 7 locks taken off, the 7th lock still has to be taken off. That is why the scrolls are SEALED with a Wax Signet Stamp!!

7.) Notice when the 7th Seal is loosed or taken off or broken, in CHAPTER 8, where the Trumps are at !! And there is then SILENCE in Heaven for 30 minutes. Jesus says nothing after the 7th Seal is broken because there is no need for Prophetic utterances anymore, Judgment has come. The Trumps are readied, fire is hurled down to earth, followed by an asteroid, followed by a "STAR" which is really the same asteroid but we just get the Nuclear Fallout (WORMWOOD) understanding. Finally, we get the Fourth Trump which is the same event, but it's the Smoke that blots out the Sun and Moon by 1/3. The Wrath of God falls at the First Four Trumps which are all the exact same event, an Asteroid strike on earth, in an ocean. God's Wrath lasts for 42-months. The Anti-Christ is very intelligent, he knows dark sentences, Satan is guiding him. He knows that when 1/3 of the world is TAKEN OUT for him, his job as a CONQUEROR just got that much easier. Plus, he plans to go forth at the exact same time, thus the parallel 42-months, by doing this he catches everyone off guard, they do not understand how much of a sadistic tyrant he is. He is calculating to the nth degree. As soon as this Asteroid strikes, and we have the ROARING WAVES Jesus told us to look for in Luke 21, this man is going to GO FORTH Conquering, at that very moment in time.

During these Seals, Jesus is prophesying about the 42-months of the Beasts RULE and about the 42-months of God's Wrath which both parallel with each other.

Rev. 7 is a sorta BRIDGE between Rev. 6 where the Seals are opened and Rev. 8 where God's Wrath STARTS and where the Anti-Christ GOES FORTH CONQUERING. Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea, tats all the 144,000 actually mean. More on that later.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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The 7 Seals of Revelation chapter 6

The Seals are NOT ACTIONABLE, they are like unto locks on a door so to speak.
It's very rare that I see this correct interpretation.

There are things the seals speak of that happen later in the trumps, which prove the seals are not action, but a foretelling, a glimpse of what is to come. Battle plans in those days were written on scrolls often sealed with a seal or more....so a "General" would have to break each seal so he could read the scroll and know the battle plan, and then once that was done a signal like a trumpet sound would call the troops to action. Its a seven stage war. Once all seven are read and reviewed then the 7 stages (trumps) can be executed/started.




The seals are glimpses of the trumps. The seals are not action but knowledge. The trumps are action in fact trumpets were always used to signal an action to happen, especially in war. The seals are on a book and I believe that book to symbolize the plan of God in the end times so all seven seals must be broken before the trumps call to action begin.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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You can doubt a pretrib rapture til' the cows come home, but all it will gain you will be to be left behind when it takes place. I wonder why anyone would chose to stay behind and be overcome, when God has made an escape plan.
Circular reasoning. You assume a PTR is true. then claim some "choose" to miss it.
Pretrib belief is not the identifier of our faith.

Members of The Body of Christ are resurrected be they dead or alive at the appointed time.
Pretrib belief earns believers nothing.
 

oldhermit

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Chapter Twenty

I. The Binding of Satan, 1-3
So far in the previous chapters, Christ has come in judgment and Jerusalem, Babylon the great, Sodom and Egypt, that once faithful city turned harlot, that false prophet who led its people to worship the beast, has now fallen and her end was marked by the assembly of the birds of prey to feed on her dead. The beast has also been judged and the saints have overcome. The saints who had suffered under these two persecuting powers have now been vindicated. What happens now? Now, it is time for Satan, the ultimate foe to be bound and the gospel to go forth.

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.”

A. Use of symbols

1. Keys represent authority, power

2. The abyss is not talking about a literal pit somewhere in the unseen world where Satan was literally assigned and bound in chains under lock and key away from the world of man. As Peter said in 1 Peter 5:8, “Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.”

From what Peter tells us, Satan cannot devour just anyone he desires. What he seeks is an opportunity to devour the careless or the non-vigilant. The abyss or bottomless pit represents limitations of evil which Satan is permitted to visit upon the world of man. Remember, in 9:2-6, the fifth angel sounded and “He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. And in those days, men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.” Also, in 11:7-10, “When they (the two witnesses) have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.”

Just as the opening of the pit brought evil and terror upon the world of man, so too, the sealing of the pit offers a respite in the intensity of evil influence. In both of the texts, it is the releasing from the abyss that results in the exercise of evil (although with applied restrictions) against those who dwell upon the earth. The bondage of the abyss speaks of a greater restriction upon Satan to exercise evil upon humanity. For example: God bound Satan in his temptations of Job. God laid down the parameters that restricted how far Satan was permitted to go.

3. The Dragon is of course, a symbol for Satan as the text defines it.

4. The great chain is a symbol of his bondage and restriction.

5. Although the number 1000 is used many times, in scripture as a literal number, when it is used symbolically it represents the aggregate and usually indicates a very large number. Strong's Concordance suggests that when used metaphorically, χίλια offers the idea of nothing excluded or left out. For example:

a. Psalms 50:10 the Psalmist says, “For every beast of the forest is Mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.”

Here, the number is used to express a whole – “every beast of the field.” If we accept the number 1000 as a literal number this would limit God's ownership of “every beast of the field.” Only the cattle on a thousand hills would belong to the Lord. The revelation of this Psalm is that ALL the cattle on ALL the hills belong to the Lord, just as he said, “every beast of the field Is mine.” Psalms 50:11, Jeremiah 12:

b. Psalms 105:8, “He hath remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.”
Here, the use of 1000 generations, is modified by “forever.” This does not suggest that God abandons his covenant after 1000 generations. God always remembers his covenant, unto ALL generations.

c. In Deuteronomy 7:9 we are told, “Know therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His loving-kindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments.”

This does not mean that God's loving-kindness only extends to a thousand generations. God is eternally faithful and his loving-kindness NEVER fails.

d. 1 Chronicles 16:15, “Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;” Same as Deut. 7:9 – ALL generations.

e. Job 9:3, “If he (man) will contend with him (God), he cannot answer him one of a thousand.” Does this suggest that man may be able to answer God in 1001 times? No. This simply conveys the absolute futility of man's wisdom when confronted by the wisdom of God. Man will never be able to answer God.

In relation to time, 1000 suggests the completion of an appointed time, or a full period of time that represents a culmination of events regardless of the number of years involved. This always seems to suggest a long period of time. The 1000 years of verses five and six represent the rule and reign of Christians from the time of the Old Covenant and beyond the threshold of time. The reign of Christ is an eternal reign unlimited by any temporal designation. However, it is NOT the reign of Christ that is under consideration in this text, it is the reign of Christians.

6. Shutting and sealing suggests a very restricted use of power over mankind but, this does not mean that evil does not continue to operate in the nations of the world. This restriction of power is said to be with regard to Satan's deception of the nations. Satan can not exercise any more power against the world of man than that which the Lord allows him.

a. Whatever amount of time is represented by the 1000 years was a limited time of restriction for Satan. So, what is the restriction of deceit and how would it affect the nations?

Deceit is the tool of Satan to minimize the power of the gospel, just like he did with Eve. How does Satan use deceit against the nations? He closes men's hearts against the gospel. Satan's deceit of the nation was the increase of heathenism over the Word of God. God has bound Satan in order to give saints access to the nations to bring the gospel to the world. Satan is not allowed to defeat the spread of the gospel. This does not necessarily suggest a time of limited persecution for the saints. In fact, it was during the time of greatest persecution that the Church saw such great success in the spread of the gospel.

There is also the deception of the fear of death. One thing the spread of the gospel accomplished was to conquer people's fear of death. Death is now seen as a victorious event that is accompanied by hope. The fact of the resurrection conquered the fear of death. This was a powerful realization to those who were facing martyrdom. How do you threaten someone who has no fear of dying? “Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,” Hebrews 2:14. This is an illustration of binding.

b. For how long was this restriction of deception to last? “Until the 1000 years are completed.”
The word “until” suggests a change of status. So, to what then does the 1000 years refer? Could it mean the full remaining time of the gospel age until the Lord returns? This would seem plausible. When did the 1000 years begin? How long is the “short time?” Contextually, it would seem to be long enough for Satan to succeed in deceiving the nations once again.
 

oldhermit

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II. The State of the Martyred Saints, 4-6

A. Enthroned saints
“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and, had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”

1. Thrones – authority, power, victory

2. Judgment
This is the first of two groups to be judged in this chapter. This does not suggest that the saints were given the prerogative to judge, but that a judicial decision was rendered in their favor. The verdict is, “not guilty,” and the judgment is life. Judgment will later be rendered upon the “dead” in verses 11-13, and judgment will not be rendered in their favor. Their verdict is, “guilty,” and their judgment is torment.

3. Witnesses – NAS vs NKJV. The NKJV is correct.
Those who had been slain – beheaded. All John saw were the souls of the martyrs.

4. “Lived and reigned,” NOT “came to life and reigned.”
Both lived – ἔζησαν, and reigned – ἐβασίλευσαν, are aorist, indicative, active meaning they lived and reigned at some point in the past and now, they continue to live and reign with Christ. The fact these had been slain did not interrupt their reign. Also, those remaining faithful who had not yet given their lives continue to live and reign as well.

B. “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

1. The “rest of the dead” who “come to life,” are those who were spiritually dead and believed the gospel after this undisclosed period of 1000 years. After the 1000 years, the fact that these had “come to life” is the result of the unfettered spread of the gospel during the time of the binding of Satan. This was a time of much fruit-bearing for the Word of God. These are part of the first resurrection. Baptism is the first resurrection – John 5:25, “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” These are those who have died with Christ by being buried and raised with him in baptism, “Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore, we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; For he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Romans 6:3-11.

These are “blessed and holy” and have no reason to fear the second death which is eternal separation from God. These are “priests of God and of Christ” and they continue to “live and reign with God for a thousand years.”

III. Satan is Freed and Doomed, 7-10
Do these next three verses represent a line of demarcation between the events of the first century and the end of time? Could the '1000 years' represent the remaining period of human history? Or, could this indicate a time of renewed paganism and persecution against the early Church or both?

“When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations (This would represent an act of judgment upon the nations of the world just as in chapters nine and eleven. God is no longer restricting Satan, but seems to be holding back the power of the gospel to impact the hearts of men. This is what he did with Israel in “sending a strong delusion so that they would believe a lie and be condemned,” 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12.) which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.” Read 16:12-14 where John draws the use of Gog and Magog from Ezekiel 38 and 39. Gog and Magog is really the combination of a single name in Semitic history. This came to symbolize heathen and pagan influence from the nations.

“And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints (Not in the physical sense. This is simply a metaphor for the worlds assault on Christianity through paganism.) and the beloved city (The Church), and fire came down from heaven and devoured them (An apt description of the end of creation as Peter describes it in 1 Peter 3:10, “But the day of the Lord [This is a common judgment figure that must always be considered in its immediate context. This judgment figure has been used to refer to any day when the Lord executed judgment on any people, nation, or society. “Will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”]). And the devil who deceived them (the nations) was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

IV. Judgment of the Damned, 11-15
“Then I saw a great white throne (Figurative imagery?) and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them (They are no more). And I saw the dead, the great and the small (These dead are those who are dead spiritually. These are the damned.), standing before the throne, and books were opened (The Word of God); and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them (The grave and the Hadean realm – this is the resurrection of both body and soul); and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds (The saved are not part of this assembly. The saints have already received their judgment in verses 4-6). Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (These are merely temporary things that fulfilled a temporary function. That need no longer exists so, there is no more use for death and hades; consequently, they are deposited into the lake of fire – an eternal state, whatever that represents, along with all the other spiritual refuse.) This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

No one of this crowd was found written in the book of life. These are the “dead,” those who are separated from God. These “have not the seal of God on their foreheads.” The Holy Spirit had not sealed them as the possession of God.
 

lamad

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Circular reasoning. You assume a PTR is true. then claim some "choose" to miss it.
Pretrib belief is not the identifier of our faith.


Members of The Body of Christ are resurrected be they dead or alive at the appointed time.
Pretrib belief earns believers nothing.
Sorry, no circles. Pretrib is scriptural. People choose what they believe. If everything we get from heaven comes by and through our faith (by grace are you save through faith) then why not the rapture? Jesus will appear to those who are LOOKING for Him. (Heb.9:28) One must assume there is a flip side to this passage: what if people are NOT "looking" for Him?

For example, are you looking for His coming TONIGHT? Or in your belief system, do you expect to see the days of GT first?
 

lamad

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It's very rare that I see this correct interpretation.

There are things the seals speak of that happen later in the trumps, which prove the seals are not action, but a foretelling, a glimpse of what is to come. Battle plans in those days were written on scrolls often sealed with a seal or more....so a "General" would have to break each seal so he could read the scroll and know the battle plan, and then once that was done a signal like a trumpet sound would call the troops to action. Its a seven stage war. Once all seven are read and reviewed then the 7 stages (trumps) can be executed/started.


The seals are glimpses of the trumps. The seals are not action but knowledge. The trumps are action in fact trumpets were always used to signal an action to happen, especially in war. The seals are on a book and I believe that book to symbolize the plan of God in the end times so all seven seals must be broken before the trumps call to action begin.
Good post! I only disagree in part.

There are events written for each seal. REAL events with action.
Seal one: is to represent the church, taking the gospel to the nations.

Seals 2-4: action: these seals represent Satan trying to stop the advance of the gospel. God would allow Satan to use war, famine, pestilence and wild beasts - but God limited them in their theater of operations to only 1/4 the earth - centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age so a LOT of action: there have been millions of saints murdered just because they loved Jesus.

Seal 6 begins the Day of the Lord.

Seal 7 is 30 minutes of silence as the official start of the 70th week.

The seals are on a book and I believe that book to symbolize the plan of God in the end times so all seven seals must be broken before the trumps call to action begin
Very good!

1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


No trumpets are even given until all the seals are opened. Therefore, no trumpet can sound until the seals are opened so that the BOOK can be opened. This hints strongly that the trumpets are written INSIDE the book.
 

lamad

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The 7 Seals of Revelation chapter 6

The Seals are NOT ACTIONABLE, they are like unto locks on a door so to speak. Why would we be able to read a king's message to his front line if it has 3 Wax Seals on it and only two have been broken? The whole "SEAL THING" means nothing can be read until every wax seal is broken, that is the intended message being sent by Jesus, the number 7 means COMPLETENESS thus God completely has the Judgment scrolls LOCKED DOWN until all 7 Seals are unlocked or broken.

The Seals are Jesus Prophesying just before the Judgments are blown:

1.) Jesus opens the First Seal and Prophesies about a coming Conqueror who will conquer many peoples/nations over a 42-month period of time. (White Horse/Anti-Christ/Beast)

2.) Jesus opens the Second Seal and Prophesies that this Anti-Christ will take Peace away (Dan. 8:25) over a 42-month period of time, thus he BRINGS WARS. (Red Horse)

3.) Jesus opens the Third Seal and Prophesies that this coming tyrant Beast will bring Famine via his wars over a coming 42-month period of time. (Black Horse)

4.) Jesus opens the Fourth Seal and Prophesies that this coming Little Horn/Anti-Christ/Man of Sin will bring Sickness, Death and the Grave over a 42-month period. (Pale Green Horse)

5.) Jesus opens the Fifth Seal and Prophesies that this tyrant Beast Ruler will Martyr many Christian peoples (who repent after the Rapture) over a coming 42-month period.

6.) Jesus opens the Six Seal and Prophesies of the coming 42-month Day of the Lord which is God's Wrath that starts with the Rev. 8 asteroid strike. This is why he "PROPHESIES" about a coming day of Darkness in Seal #6. About the Heavens being SHAKEN (Satan is cast down to earth at the 1260 middle of the week event and thus chases the Woman for 1260 days). The Sun and Moon's Light are diminished via Trump #4, and that is when THIS PROPHESY comes true. And that is also when the Joel 2:31 Prophesy comes true. The 6th Seal leaves one more seal to be opened by Jesus before this Judgment Scroll can be read from. We can't read the 7 Sealed Scroll with only 6 Seals off of it any more than we can open a closet door with 6 of 7 locks taken off, the 7th lock still has to be taken off. That is why the scrolls are SEALED with a Wax Signet Stamp!!

7.) Notice when the 7th Seal is loosed or taken off or broken, in CHAPTER 8, where the Trumps are at !! And there is then SILENCE in Heaven for 30 minutes. Jesus says nothing after the 7th Seal is broken because there is no need for Prophetic utterances anymore, Judgment has come. The Trumps are readied, fire is hurled down to earth, followed by an asteroid, followed by a "STAR" which is really the same asteroid but we just get the Nuclear Fallout (WORMWOOD) understanding. Finally, we get the Fourth Trump which is the same event, but it's the Smoke that blots out the Sun and Moon by 1/3. The Wrath of God falls at the First Four Trumps which are all the exact same event, an Asteroid strike on earth, in an ocean. God's Wrath lasts for 42-months. The Anti-Christ is very intelligent, he knows dark sentences, Satan is guiding him. He knows that when 1/3 of the world is TAKEN OUT for him, his job as a CONQUEROR just got that much easier. Plus, he plans to go forth at the exact same time, thus the parallel 42-months, by doing this he catches everyone off guard, they do not understand how much of a sadistic tyrant he is. He is calculating to the nth degree. As soon as this Asteroid strikes, and we have the ROARING WAVES Jesus told us to look for in Luke 21, this man is going to GO FORTH Conquering, at that very moment in time.

During these Seals, Jesus is prophesying about the 42-months of the Beasts RULE and about the 42-months of God's Wrath which both parallel with each other.

Rev. 7 is a sorta BRIDGE between Rev. 6 where the Seals are opened and Rev. 8 where God's Wrath STARTS and where the Anti-Christ GOES FORTH CONQUERING. Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea, tats all the 144,000 actually mean. More on that later.
You got started well, but then....
It is truth that the seals main purpose is the prevent anyone but the appointed man to take this book and open the seals. The most important thing is the BOOK, and what is written inside, not the seals sealing it. Many people read the seals and think that is all there is to the book.

So what do these seals represent?

First, we must discover God's intent in the context of the seals: chapters 4 & 5. Here are some interesting points:
First, John saw IN A VISION the throne room of heaven. A vision can be of the past, the present, or the future, or all of the above mixed up: we determine the time by what is written.

There is something very strange in this vision of the throne room: in a book of revealing about Jesus Christ, John saw the throne and the Father on the throne, but WHERE IS JESUS in this vision? John saw this vision around 95 AD according to tradition, and by this time Jesus has been in heaven for years. And we have over a dozen verses telling us that Jesus went to e at the right hand of the Father - and Stephen SAW Him there. God chose to show John a vision of the throne room with Jesus apparently absent. WHY?

Next, John saw the Holy Spirit there in the throne room, as the 7 spirits of God. Yet, Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down. So another question: why is the Holy Spirit there?

Next, John saw a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals - yet, that search ended in failure and John wrote, "no man was found." WHY? If we read ahead, Jesus was found later. So WHY was Jesus not found in this first search John watched?

There is only one answer to these questions. God is showing us TIMING and the MOVEMENT Of time. When in ALL of time was there a time when Jesus (or the second person of the Godhead) would NOT have been seen in the throne room at the right hand of the Father? I submit there was around 32 years of time when Jesus was absent from the throne room.

When would one expect the Holy Spirit to BE in the throne room? I submit, just before Jesus ascended back into heaven.

When was there a time before Jesus Christ, the SON and the second person of the triune Godhead would NOT have been worthy to take the book? I submit that before Jesus rose from the dead, He would not have been found worthy. He had to become the Redeemer first. He had to raise from the dead to become the Redeemer.

What God was showing John and John then showing us is TIMING: Jesus was not seen in the throne room when John first looked because God was showing Him the throne room when Jesus was on earth.

John saw the Holy Spirit there because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead and ascended to send Him down.

Jesus was not found worthy in that first search because He had not "prevailed" over death and rose from the dead. But TIME Passed, another search was made, and then Jesus WAS found worthy. God is showing is TIME and TIMING. Then what did John see?

5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
[Jesus NOT seen in the throne room, then after time has passed, suddenly appears]

John saw Jesus as He ascended back into the throne room, having defeated death, rose from the dead, saw Mary, sent her away, then ascended and immediately sent the Holy Spirit down. Again, God is giving us TIMING. The first thing Jesus does is take the book from the hand of the FAther and begin to open the seals. What then is the meaning behind that first seal, opened around 32 AD?

Seal 1 tp represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel, making disciples of all nations
Seals 2 - 4 to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel
Seal 5, martyrs of the church age, and the first hint of a long time to wait: Judgment will not begin until the last martyr.
Seal 6 Judgment starts as the Day of the Lord starts.
Seal 7 the official start of the 70th week of Daniel.

Now the BOOK is opened to reveal the Trumpet judgments.

Note, the post above is 2000 years off. While God is at the time of the early church, this writer is imagining end times.

Question: Would God use the color white 16 times in Revelation to represent righteousness, and then one time for deception and evil? No, God would not do that. I think all 17 times white is used in Revelation we can believe it is to represent righteousness. Therefore the first seal cannot be to represent the Antichrist. First, it is 2000 years off in timing, and second, God has shown us his color is fiery red.

People tend to get FAR ahead of God in Revelation. God starts before the church, while Jesus is still on earth, then takes the readers down through time, the church age, the martyrs of the church age, then the rapture (John did not see it but saw the raptured church in heaven), then the start of the Day of the Lord, then the start of the 70th week, then the exactly midpoint clearly marked with the 7th trumpet, then the five countdowns to the end given in days, in months and in times, then the Beast and False Prophet, then finally the vials of His wrath, and then the 7th vial that will end the week. Why anyone things they need to rearrange is beyond me.
 

lamad

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REV. 4 & 5

Rev. 4 is the Raptured Church in Heaven as seen via the 24 Elders who have three things the Churches were promised in chapters 2 and 3, the Rev. 2:10 OVERCOMERS are promised CROWNS, the Rev. 3:5 OVERCOMERS are promised White Raiment, and the Rev. 3:21 OVERCOMERS were promised to sit amidst God's THRONES. Thus, these 24 Elders having all three of these in Rev. 4:4 show us the 24 Elders are CODE for the Church in Heaven before the Seals are ever opened. We thus see in REv. 4:1 that the door being opened is a hint at the Rapture via the Shofar, via Jesus sounding as a Trump. We see in Rev. 5:9 that these men are Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

We are shown in Rev. 4 the Glory of the Lord God and in Rev. 5 the Worthiness of the Lamb, the Redeemer of all mankind.
Sorry, but no one has ever proved that the elders seen in heaven are proof of a previous rapture.

The truth is, Rev. 4 & 5 are the context of the first seal, showing us the correct TIMING of the first seals.

I know, many people imagine Rev. 4:1 is the rapture. No, it is JOHN caught up to heaven around 95 AD, NOT the end of the age! It is still the church age at the 5th seal, for that is for the martyrs of the church age. Judgment does not begin until the 6th seal.
 

lamad

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You can claim a pre-trib rapture until the cows come home, it's not found in scripture

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 will rule the tribulation through plagues, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the (Sealed) church on earth is protected

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
it's not found in scripture No, the truth is, YOU have not found it. Millions have.

the (Sealed) church on earth is protected Why then does both Daniel and John tell us the saints will be OVERCOME. Sorry, but I am sticking with what they say. But I wonder, why do you disagree with what is written?

Perhaps you missed that those 144,000 are HEBREWS. They are sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments, then seen in heaven. The church as the seal of the Holy Spirit inside. But the church will be caught up before wrath.
 

Rondonmon

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So what do these seals represent?
First, none of the Seals have been opened. I know from other sites your view is they have already been opened. You git that from the verse that says the Lamb was NOT IN HEAVEN..........and as I have pointed out it also says NO MAN was In haven, ON EARTH, nor UNDER THE EARTH, thus your think would make Jesus a NOWHERE MAN !!

Thus your whole point of emphasis s proven in error brother. THe Lamb being WORTHY is the Picture here, not the TIMING. Jesus is in Heaven. and so is the Raptured Church.
 

lamad

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First, none of the Seals have been opened. I know from other sites your view is they have already been opened. You git that from the verse that says the Lamb was NOT IN HEAVEN..........and as I have pointed out it also says NO MAN was In haven, ON EARTH, nor UNDER THE EARTH, thus your think would make Jesus a NOWHERE MAN !!

Thus your whole point of emphasis s proven in error brother. THe Lamb being WORTHY is the Picture here, not the TIMING. Jesus is in Heaven. and so is the Raptured Church.
You only imagine error because you think you know when in fact, you don't. One day you will find out.
 

ewq1938

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Good post! I only disagree in part.

There are events written for each seal. REAL events with action.
No, they are actions that will take place in the future during the trumpets. Jesus doesn't open the 6th seal (which describes the day of the second coming) then return to the Earth in the second coming then immediately come back to heaven to open the 7th seal then later return in a second second coming at the 7th trump (the actual time when the second coming commences. One key to understanding the seals is to understand they are not actions happening when the seals are opened.