Right phrase at the wrong time ?

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#1
We often hear phrases such as " walking away " , " leaving God " , " Turned back " , " Drifted away " ect .
But does this match how we are saved today? We read verses such as
37¶Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And what happens is some will add " but it doesn't say ,we can't separate ourselves " . Now this is done pretty much to every verse that seems to say we are secure after we believe .
Now I do believe in Eternal security ( not the calvinist version) . But I don't believe it was the case in the OT nor will it be after the ' rapture ' .
So let's look at the terminology we see used and see if it fits today's order of salvation.
" He walked away " ?
" Fell away " ?
" Turned his back on God "
" He lost his salvation "
" back sliding "
Ect
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
8,426
3,625
113
#2
We often hear phrases such as " walking away " , " leaving God " , " Turned back " , " Drifted away " ect .
But does this match how we are saved today? We read verses such as
37¶Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And what happens is some will add " but it doesn't say ,we can't separate ourselves " . Now this is done pretty much to every verse that seems to say we are secure after we believe .
Now I do believe in Eternal security ( not the calvinist version) . But I don't believe it was the case in the OT nor will it be after the ' rapture ' .
So let's look at the terminology we see used and see if it fits today's order of salvation.
" He walked away " ?
" Fell away " ?
" Turned his back on God "
" He lost his salvation "
" back sliding "
Ect
To explore what you think apostasy is or isn't, how many sins equates to walking away, falling away, turning a back on God, or backsliding? Perhaps just one sin, two, or three?

I know we sin a lot even though we don't want to. We can have a repentant heart that doesn't want to sin, yet we find ourselves tripping up and doing bad things.

There is the spiritual versus the physical... "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against...spiritual wickedness..."
(Eph. 6:12)

Paul puts it like this:

Romans 7:15-20, 25
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,611
270
83
#4
Now I do believe in Eternal security ( not the calvinist version) . But I don't believe it was the case in the OT nor will it be after the ' rapture ' .

So let's look at the terminology we see used and see if it fits today's order of salvation.
" He walked away " ?
" Fell away " ?
" Turned his back on God "
" He lost his salvation "
" back sliding "
Ect
Then you do have a problem with explaining how people can be insecure in their salvation (or thinking salvation does not bring fruit with it) since they believe their salvation stems from something they did out of their "free will". And if the Bible talks about people who actually fell away, then it means just that and nothing else. These scriptures are to be reconciled and harmonize and no OSAS arminian is able to do so without ending up with a lot of error.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#5
Then you do have a problem with explaining how people can be insecure in their salvation (or thinking salvation does not bring fruit with it) since they believe their salvation stems from something they did out of their "free will". And if the Bible talks about people who actually fell away, then it means just that and nothing else. These scriptures are to be reconciled and harmonize and no OSAS arminian is able to do so without ending up with a lot of error.
Do you 'harmonize ' the bible pre and post DBR ? How about before Moses and After ? Before Noah and the flood and after? Before Adam and After ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#6
Then you do have a problem with explaining how people can be insecure in their salvation (or thinking salvation does not bring fruit with it) since they believe their salvation stems from something they did out of their "free will". And if the Bible talks about people who actually fell away, then it means just that and nothing else. These scriptures are to be reconciled and harmonize and no OSAS arminian is able to do so without ending up with a lot of error.
Where in the bible does it say a person in Christ ' fell away '? And fell away how ? and from what? Sounds like climbing and grabbing hold . Is that how we are saved today ? Climbing and holding?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,611
270
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#7
Do you 'harmonize ' the bible pre and post DBR ? How about before Moses and After ? Before Noah and the flood and after? Before Adam and After ?
Not exactly sure what you mean with "DBR"?
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
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#8


Romans8:38-39 + Psalm91:11:)
No personal attack, just had to respond.

Biblical Angel's aren't female blonds with wings, ready for a beauty pageant

Angel's are always manifested as (Males) in the scripture, the world has surrounded us with false images of God's messengers.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,611
270
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#11
Where in the bible does it say a person in Christ ' fell away '? And fell away how ? and from what? Sounds like climbing and grabbing hold . Is that how we are saved today ? Climbing and holding?
That is another question altogether if these people were ever "in Christ", they were in the church and they departed.

1John.2

[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
See also Heb.6:6. This means that there are people who call themselves christians and they are plants. Even if they claim or think they are saved they are not. Their works and their professions proves otherwise. A mere belief in OSAS will not help such a soul.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,611
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#12
Death ,burial and resurrection. I should add 'the giving of the Holy spirit also .
Aha. OK. Well I hold to one single covenant of grace (renewed in the New Testament) and one single gospel preached in both covenants. Same principles applies.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,490
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#13
Then you do have a problem with explaining how people can be insecure in their salvation (or thinking salvation does not bring fruit with it) since they believe their salvation stems from something they did out of their "free will". And if the Bible talks about people who actually fell away, then it means just that and nothing else. These scriptures are to be reconciled and harmonize and no OSAS arminian is able to do so without ending up with a lot of error.
I believe once a person is saved they are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and this is unto the day of redemption, (Eternal Security) Eph 1:13, 4:30

If you witness a person who plays church, appeared to be saved, and died in say Adlutery?

This person was never saved and sealed to begin with, my observation of scripture.

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:27-30KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#14
Aha. OK. Well I hold to one single covenant of grace (renewed in the New Testament) and one single gospel preached in both covenants. Same principles applies.
But you can see that they are not preaching the DBR in Luke 9.6 ?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,611
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#15
To explore what you think apostasy is or isn't, how many sins equates to walking away, falling away, turning a back on God, or backsliding? Perhaps just one sin, two, or three?
The question is not whether apostates "were ever christians" or "TRULY belonged to Jesus" etc, the question is whether there really exists an apostasy and a falling away - and it does.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,611
270
83
#17
I believe once a person is saved they are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and this is unto the day of redemption, (Eternal Security) Eph 1:13, 4:30

If you witness a person who plays church, appeared to be saved, and died in say Adlutery?

This person was never saved and sealed to begin with, my observation of scripture.
So you mean to say that one can commit adultery and then stop committing adultery some time before death and that would be OK? What time frame would we then be talking about?

Not sure exactly how you mean here. But I do believe that a saved person can fall into sin, however he or she will eventually repent and forsake this sin. As for those who continuously live in sin until they die, yes, such persons I do not think were ever saved. Even if they "played church".

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:27-30KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
Yes. Good scriptures.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,490
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#18
But you can see that they are not preaching the DBR in Luke 9.6 ?
Pretty hard to preach the DBR before Jesus saw Calvary?

Mark 1:14-15KJV
14 Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#20
Aha. OK. Well I hold to one single covenant of grace (renewed in the New Testament) and one single gospel preached in both covenants. Same principles applies.
Is this the ' covenant of grace ' as in ' covenental theology ' ?