Righteousness

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,926
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113
#1
We are told that if we say we are righteous, we lie. We are also told to practice righteousness. Scripture is truth, and we cannot do both of these things, so what are we to do?

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29

I think that to understand scripture we often have to go back to the Hebrew roots of scripture. That means learning what righteousness meant to the Hebrew mind. We are told Moses, Abraham, and Noah were righteous yet we know it is a basic truth that man is born in sin and they were men. So it cannot be that scripture tells us these men had no need for forgiveness but were perfect in their righteousness. That is because in the Hebrew mind, a righteous man was not a perfect man but a man who follows a correct path to God. He is a man whose will is given to God, he wants to walk as God tells him to walk with faith in what the Lord tells him.


Do you agree?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,871
1,517
113
#2
We are told that if we say we are righteous, we lie. We are also told to practice righteousness. Scripture is truth, and we cannot do both of these things, so what are we to do?

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29

I think that to understand scripture we often have to go back to the Hebrew roots of scripture. That means learning what righteousness meant to the Hebrew mind. We are told Moses, Abraham, and Noah were righteous yet we know it is a basic truth that man is born in sin and they were men. So it cannot be that scripture tells us these men had no need for forgiveness but were perfect in their righteousness. That is because in the Hebrew mind, a righteous man was not a perfect man but a man who follows a correct path to God. He is a man whose will is given to God, he wants to walk as God tells him to walk with faith in what the Lord tells him.

Do you agree?
1 John has to be read carefully and you will be led off track with a modern translation.
29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
In light of the tribulation is how we should understand parts of 1 john

You will never read Paul saying 'our righteousness ' . But in the OT yes and during the tribulation, yes .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,871
1,517
113
#3
We are told that if we say we are righteous, we lie. We are also told to practice righteousness. Scripture is truth, and we cannot do both of these things, so what are we to do?

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29

I think that to understand scripture we often have to go back to the Hebrew roots of scripture. That means learning what righteousness meant to the Hebrew mind. We are told Moses, Abraham, and Noah were righteous yet we know it is a basic truth that man is born in sin and they were men. So it cannot be that scripture tells us these men had no need for forgiveness but were perfect in their righteousness. That is because in the Hebrew mind, a righteous man was not a perfect man but a man who follows a correct path to God. He is a man whose will is given to God, he wants to walk as God tells him to walk with faith in what the Lord tells him.

Do you agree?
Your reasoning is correct under the OT and during the tribulation.
 

Blackpowderduelist

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
2,217
965
113
Babylon
#4
We don't have to understand hebrew roots or any of that stuff, we have the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit.

Those father's of faith believed God and it was accounted to them as righteousness. That's not hard to understand.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,124
3,531
113
59
#5
Is walking upright with God not the same as being righteous with God in the OT ?
Just asking...
...xox...
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,926
1,517
113
#6
Your reasoning is correct under the OT and during the tribulation.
Do you think God is an eternal God who never changes, or is God two Gods: a God of the new testament and a God of the old testament?

We have divided scripture into two parts. One part is before Christ came as a man and another separate part as the same God after Christ came as a man. However, in scripture we are told such as that Christ never changed anything, that Christ is all through scripture, and that Christ was from the beginning. How do you think God sees our two separate scripture? I don't think the division was of God.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,871
1,517
113
#7
Do you think God is an eternal God who never changes, or is God two Gods: a God of the new testament and a God of the old testament?

We have divided scripture into two parts. One part is before Christ came as a man and another separate part as the same God after Christ came as a man. However, in scripture we are told such as that Christ never changed anything, that Christ is all through scripture, and that Christ was from the beginning. How do you think God sees our two separate scripture? I don't think the division was of God.
Ok let's see where we may be talking past each other..///
Do you think God is an eternal God who never changes, or is God two Gods: a God of the new testament and a God of the old testament?///
Ok nothing I've ever said even remotely should have generated this question . Your equating God dealing with certain people in different ways , revealing things in different ways and at different times ,with ' Different Gods ' ? Which is a weird response ?
And what do you do with verses such as Heb 1 .

1¶God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Eph 3
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


/// We have divided scripture into two parts. One part is before Christ came as a man and another separate part as the same God after Christ came as a man. ///

I've not made this distinction. Although there is a distinction here in that prior to Jesus being born as a baby , Jesus hadn't been a baby prior to this .
/// However, in scripture we are told such as that Christ never changed anything,///
What does this even mean,?
Are you really saying NOTHING changed with the arrival of Jesus? What about fulfilling prophecies? All righteousness, the law? Did nothing change at his death ? Even when he said " it is finished " ? This implies something changed, something was finished . How about his resurrection? His time before the ascension? After his Ascension? The giving of the Holy spirit ? The day of pentacost? With Cornelius, ,? How about Paul's conversion? The first apostle to the gentiles , any changes there ?


// that Christ is all through scripture, and that Christ was from the beginning.///

Yes this is the basics of christianity. Every Sunday school kid knows this one .
// How do you think God sees our two separate scripture? I don't think the division was of God.///

I think your confused here. Your not really listening . Your just responding to a idea you think I'm saying .
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,926
1,517
113
#8
We approach scripture differently, it makes it hard for us to communicate. I look for the eternal truths of the Lord past the ways the Lord presents them, you look at the presentation. It seems to you I miss the presentation, and it seems to me you get so caught up in the presentation you miss the eternal truths.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,313
2,093
113
#9
We are told that if we say we are righteous, we lie. We are also told to practice righteousness. Scripture is truth, and we cannot do both of these things, so what are we to do?

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29

I think that to understand scripture we often have to go back to the Hebrew roots of scripture. That means learning what righteousness meant to the Hebrew mind. We are told Moses, Abraham, and Noah were righteous yet we know it is a basic truth that man is born in sin and they were men. So it cannot be that scripture tells us these men had no need for forgiveness but were perfect in their righteousness. That is because in the Hebrew mind, a righteous man was not a perfect man but a man who follows a correct path to God. He is a man whose will is given to God, he wants to walk as God tells him to walk with faith in what the Lord tells him.

Do you agree?

we have the righteousness of Christ which makes us right with God that means = in a right relationship with God.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,871
1,517
113
#10
We approach scripture differently, it makes it hard for us to communicate. I look for the eternal truths of the Lord past the ways the Lord presents them, you look at the presentation. It seems to you I miss the presentation, and it seems to me you get so caught up in the presentation you miss the eternal truths.
I would never want to look past the way God has presented something . I believe He meant what he said and said what he meant .
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,926
1,517
113
#11
I would never want to look past the way God has presented something . I believe He meant what he said and said what he meant .
So do I!! And I know God wants me to know all about Him, including all His principles. God is spirit who always speaks complete truth. God uses history to tell me what His spiritual truths are, I accept history as truth, and also the spiritual truths the Lord gives.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,871
1,517
113
#12
So do I!! And I know God wants me to know all about Him, including all His principles. God is spirit who always speaks complete truth. God uses history to tell me what His spiritual truths are, I accept history as truth, and also the spiritual truths the Lord gives.
We do more harm than good when we teach what we ' Feel ' . Or our 'insights '/ Personal truths ' rather than what God had said and the context in which he said it . Our ' touchy feels ' Or ' Eternal truths ' have to be something that's revealed .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,871
1,517
113
#14
So do I!! And I know God wants me to know all about Him, including all His principles. God is spirit who always speaks complete truth. God uses history to tell me what His spiritual truths are, I accept history as truth, and also the spiritual truths the Lord gives.
You said//God uses history to tell me what His spiritual truths are, I accept history as truth, and also the spiritual truths the Lord gives.// What do you mean by this? Do you get private revelation from God ? What 'history 'do you believe God uses ? And what do you mean by 'spiritual truths' ?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,395
113
#15
We are told that if we say we are righteous, we lie. We are also told to practice righteousness. Scripture is truth, and we cannot do both of these things, so what are we to do?

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29

I think that to understand scripture we often have to go back to the Hebrew roots of scripture. That means learning what righteousness meant to the Hebrew mind. We are told Moses, Abraham, and Noah were righteous yet we know it is a basic truth that man is born in sin and they were men. So it cannot be that scripture tells us these men had no need for forgiveness but were perfect in their righteousness. That is because in the Hebrew mind, a righteous man was not a perfect man but a man who follows a correct path to God. He is a man whose will is given to God, he wants to walk as God tells him to walk with faith in what the Lord tells him.

Do you agree?
John was preaching Christ according to prophecy to Israel, where they will only get the complete righteousness when Christ comes back for them to usher them into the promised Kingdom.

John was not preaching Christ according to the mystery, like Paul, where we have complete righteousness in our spirit, the moment we believe Christ died in the cross and rose again
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,926
1,517
113
#16
You said//God uses history to tell me what His spiritual truths are, I accept history as truth, and also the spiritual truths the Lord gives.// What do you mean by this? Do you get private revelation from God ? What 'history 'do you believe God uses ? And what do you mean by 'spiritual truths' ?
Scripture spends a lot of time telling us all about freeing the slaves in Egypt. This is history. Do you think there are spiritual truths to be seen from this history? What do you think God's purpose is in all this?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,871
1,517
113
#17
Scripture spends a lot of time telling us all about freeing the slaves in Egypt. This is history. Do you think there are spiritual truths to be seen from this history? What do you think God's purpose is in all this?
All things are written for our understanding also . I've never said otherwise .
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
983
325
63
#19
We are told that if we say we are righteous, we lie. We are also told to practice righteousness. Scripture is truth, and we cannot do both of these things, so what are we to do?

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29

I think that to understand scripture we often have to go back to the Hebrew roots of scripture. That means learning what righteousness meant to the Hebrew mind. We are told Moses, Abraham, and Noah were righteous yet we know it is a basic truth that man is born in sin and they were men. So it cannot be that scripture tells us these men had no need for forgiveness but were perfect in their righteousness. That is because in the Hebrew mind, a righteous man was not a perfect man but a man who follows a correct path to God. He is a man whose will is given to God, he wants to walk as God tells him to walk with faith in what the Lord tells him.

Do you agree?
Righteousness is a gift from God & imputed onto believers via faith placed in Christ's sin atoning death, burial & resurrection.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
(NOTE: Righteousness is a gift from God. A gift is given not earned)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(NOTE: It's our faith placed in Christ's righteousness whereby we are justified)

1 Tim 1:9 God saved us, & called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, according to his own purpose & grace, which was given us "in Christ" before the world began
(NOTE: God saved us, not according to our works, according to his own purpose & grace, """which was GIVEN us in Christ")

Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words: JUSTIFICATION; denotes "the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" That God "justifies" the believing sinner on the ground of Christ's death, involves His free gift of life
(MY NOTE: We are justified & receive a Full Sin ACQUILTTAL. When sovereign God judicially pronounces us righteousness. Bases on our faith placed in Christ's FAITHFUL, Finished, redemptive work & resurrection.)

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(NOTE: Righteousness is imputed not earned)

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
(NOTE: Righteousness is an imputed gift & not earned)

Impute: Strong's Concordance #1677, Verb, Greek word - ellogao - Definition: to charge to one's account, impute
Usage: I charge to, put to one's account, impute.

Impute Theology: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=impute+definition&spf=1495026567220
ascribe (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to someone by virtue of a similar quality in another.
"Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us"

It's Christ's righteousness (Jer 23:6 & 33:16) imputed/transferred (Rom 4:3-8) onto us & our sins are imputed/transferred onto Christ.

While the Temple was operating the High Priest had authority to impute/transfer sin (Lev 16:21).

Christ is our Great High Priest (Heb 4:14). Can not only Impute a believers sins onto Himself. Christ can Impute His righteousness onto the believer as well.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,395
113
#20
Righteousness is a gift from God & imputed onto believers via faith placed in Christ's sin atoning death, burial & resurrection.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
(NOTE: Righteousness is a gift from God. A gift is given not earned)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(NOTE: It's our faith placed in Christ's righteousness whereby we are justified)

1 Tim 1:9 God saved us, & called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, according to his own purpose & grace, which was given us "in Christ" before the world began
(NOTE: God saved us, not according to our works, according to his own purpose & grace, """which was GIVEN us in Christ")

Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words: JUSTIFICATION; denotes "the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" That God "justifies" the believing sinner on the ground of Christ's death, involves His free gift of life
(MY NOTE: We are justified & receive a Full Sin ACQUILTTAL. When sovereign God judicially pronounces us righteousness. Bases on our faith placed in Christ's FAITHFUL, Finished, redemptive work & resurrection.)

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(NOTE: Righteousness is imputed not earned)

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
(NOTE: Righteousness is an imputed gift & not earned)

Impute: Strong's Concordance #1677, Verb, Greek word - ellogao - Definition: to charge to one's account, impute
Usage: I charge to, put to one's account, impute.

Impute Theology: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=impute+definition&spf=1495026567220
ascribe (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to someone by virtue of a similar quality in another.
"Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us"

It's Christ's righteousness (Jer 23:6 & 33:16) imputed/transferred (Rom 4:3-8) onto us & our sins are imputed/transferred onto Christ.

While the Temple was operating the High Priest had authority to impute/transfer sin (Lev 16:21).

Christ is our Great High Priest (Heb 4:14). Can not only Impute a believers sins onto Himself. Christ can Impute His righteousness onto the believer as well.
Do you think John was aware of all these revelations from Paul when he wrote 1 John?