Romans Chapter 9

[Karraster]

Paul is writing primarily to establish proper behavior for the gentiles coming into the faith of Israel. Many of these gentiles were coming into their Messianic faith directly from a pagan background, which had little regard, if not even contempt, for anything "Jewish." The basis of his teaching is that Jews and gentiles will honor God together as one "body" or "building." For the gentiles this is to be done through obedience to a specific teaching (the obedience of faith).

Paul was a Torah-observant rabbi and Pharisee, who diligently worked to bring gentiles into the faith of Israel in the way prescribed by the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), and his (correct) understanding of the Shema and Torah.

His desire in Romans is that the faithfulness of God to Israel would be followed by mercy of God to the gentiles. He knows that great numbers of gentiles coming to faith in the God of Israel would be proof to those Jews still "stumbling" over Yeshua, the validity of His Messiahship (and of Paul's ministry!) The unbelieving Jews would then see that faith in Yeshua establishes Torah (Romans 3:31) and does not conflict with it. Paul hopes that by this process, all Israel would be saved.
[h=3]Romans 9[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.


Paul adds the utmost emphasis to what he is about to say. He is continuing a thought from 8:28, which has much to do with Israel specifically.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [SUP]4 [/SUP]who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; [SUP]5 [/SUP]whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Paul still considers the Jews who do not yet accept Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah to be his brethren, and also the chosen people of God (regardless of their continued unbelief). His comments are rooted in 1st Samuel, which make clear that Israel will always remain God's chosen people:

1st Samuel 12:20-23 -And Samuel said unto the people, Fear not: ye have done all this wickedness: yet turn not aside from following the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart; And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after vain things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain. For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people. Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way:

Paul's words about himself, "being accursed," may compare to those of Moses', when he prayed for Israel after they had grievously sinned against God:

Exodus 32:31-32 - And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.


Even the casual observer can surely see what great love for God and for Israel these men of the Bible possessed. I am reminded of this verse:

[h=3]Hebrews 11:38[/h]NASB


[SUP]38 [/SUP](men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes [SUP][a][/SUP]in the ground.




​

 

[Karraster]

Here Paul makes a distinction between the faithful remnant of Israel, and those whose hearts are hardened. Yet, according to Paul both "groups" are still considered the chosen people of God.

The references to "hardened" (i.e., objects of God's wrath), do not deal with an individual's ultimate salvation, but with their role in God's plan. A "vessel of wrath" can become a "vessel of mercy," as this is God’s desire. God shows both His wrath and saving power using such people, as this is necessary to accomplish His ultimate purpose.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Compare to Romans 3:3, the word of God is true even if man fails to respond properly. Paul now reiterates that there is a "righteous Israel" within the entirety of Israel, just as their always has been. The Mishna (oral law) also speaks of "all Israel" having a place in the world to come, yet then lists Israelites who will have no such place.


​

 

[Karraster]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.


Paul begins to show God's distinguishing God's chosen people, first by going back to Isaac, who was chosen over Ishmael.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

He next distinguishes between Jacob and Esau. (Note they had the same mother).

[SUP]11 [/SUP](for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth [SUP]12 [/SUP]it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. [SUP]13 [/SUP]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Paul introduces the subject of "election" - independent of human works or parentage. The terms, "love" and "hate" refer to election and non-election. However, those "not elected" are not removed from God's mercy;

Deuteronomy 23:7 - Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land.
​

Even if the majority of Jews are not believers in Yeshua, they are still the vessel through which He will bring salvation. Yeshua reinforced this when speaking to the Samaritan woman:

John 4:22 - Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
​

 

[crossnote]

Paul was a Torah-observant rabbi and Pharisee, who diligently worked to bring gentiles into the faith of Israel in the way prescribed by the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), and his (correct) understanding of the Shema and Torah.

Peter speaking...''Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
(Act 15:10-11)

and the resulting recommendation from James?

Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
(Act 15:19-20)

 

[phil112]

..............................Paul was a Torah-observant rabbi and Pharisee, who diligently worked to bring gentiles into the faith of Israel in the way prescribed by the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), and his (correct) understanding of the Shema and Torah.......................................

What are you trying to say? That Paul obeyed the law? That his desire was to get the gentile to be torah obedient?

When you do a copy and paste you should say so, give credit for it, and clarify which, if any of it, is your own words.

 

[svedbygrace]

karr

Paul is writing primarily to establish proper behavior for the gentiles coming into the faith of Israel.

You cant find any statement like that in Rom 9, you made this up in your mind !

 

[Karraster]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [SUP]16 [/SUP]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Paul is relating how God dealt with Abraham's children in the past is similar to how God deals with Israel in the present, not to say God isn't fair in His dealings with man, rather it is God who has control, God who deals mercy to whom He chooses. Keep in mind that God is always just.

 

[Karraster]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth

Paul is drawing from Exodus. God raised up Pharaoh to for His purpose.

Exodus 9:16 - And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
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See also Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18,24; 6:14; 2 Corinthians 13:4.

The concept of the "name" of God ties back to His revelation to Moses:

Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
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Also Yeshua's name:

Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Yeshua: for he shall save his people from their sins.
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[SeaBass]

In Romans 9, Paul knows that God has not only cut-off/has cast away fleshly Israel from being His chosen people, but has grafted in the once non-chosen Gentiles to be of His elect (see Rom 11:15-23) and God was just and righteous in doing so. Paul uses Romans 9 to refute any argument the fleshly Jews would have against God casting them away. Romans 9 is one of, if not the most, anti-Calvinistic chapters in the bible.

 

[crossnote]

In Romans 9, Paul knows that God has not only cut-off/has cast away fleshly Israel from being His chosen people, but has grafted in the once non-chosen Gentiles to be of His elect (see Rom 11:15-23) and God was just and righteous in doing so. Paul uses Romans 9 to refute any argument the fleshly Jews would have against God casting them away. Romans 9 is one of, if not the most, anti-Calvinistic chapters in the bible.

Maybe you need to rephrase the first part of your first sentence?

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
(Rom 11:1-2)

 

[SeaBass]

Maybe you need to rephrase the first part of your first sentence?

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
(Rom 11:1-2)

The issue is who is the people of God in these verses? Christians. (See Rom 2:28,29 as to who the real Jew is, who is God's people)

God did not utterly reject all the Jews so they could not be saved. Paul, when he was Saul, persecuted God's church and would have been the most rejected one, but he was not for he became a Christian and became one of God's people, a Christian. All Jews, just as Paul, could have believed in Christ and obeyed the gospel as Paul and be one of God's people. So God in no way has rejected His people.

 

[crossnote]

God's people are the elect according to grace...taken from Jew and Gentile.

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
(Rom 9:11)

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
(Rom 11:28)

 

[SeaBass]

God's people are the elect according to grace...taken from Jew and Gentile.

Yes, that would be Christians. So any Jew or Gentile that chooses to obey the gospel of Christ becomes one of God's people.


God's people are no longer fleshly Israel but Christians. That is why I referenced Rom 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

So the true Jew is not one outwardly of the flesh but inwardly circumcised of the heart and spirit, a Christian, cf Col 2:11,12. Paul reiterates this in Rom 9:8 "They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"

So fleshly Jews are not the children of God but Christians are now God's children.

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
(Rom 9:11)

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
(Rom 11:28)

In Rom 9:6-15 Paul refutes the Jews' mindset that God had to choose them simply because they were the physical descendants of Abraham. Paul is proving in these verses that God does not have to base His choices or promises only upon physical descent.



Rom 11:28 the enemies here are the Jews that rejected the gospel and would not believe in Christ. These Jews' rejection meant the gospel came to Gentiles sooner.

"But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers." Even though the unbelieving Jews were the enemies, as far as election goes, they could still believe the gospel and become a Christian, part of the elect for the sake of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, that would be Christians. So any Jew or Gentile that chooses to obey the gospel of Christ becomes one of God's people.


God's people are no longer fleshly Israel but Christians. That is why I referenced Rom 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

So the true Jew is not one outwardly of the flesh but inwardly circumcised of the heart and spirit, a Christian, cf Col 2:11,12. Paul reiterates this in Rom 9:8 "They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"

So fleshly Jews are not the children of God but Christians are now God's children.




In Rom 9:6-15 Paul refutes the Jews' mindset that God had to choose them simply because they were the physical descendants of Abraham. Paul is proving in these verses that God does not have to base His choices or promises only upon physical descent.



Rom 11:28 the enemies here are the Jews that rejected the gospel and would not believe in Christ. These Jews' rejection meant the gospel came to Gentiles sooner.

"But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers." Even though the unbelieving Jews were the enemies, as far as election goes, they could still believe the gospel and become a Christian, part of the elect for the sake of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.

Though 'enemies' to the gospel God's purposes concerning them continue ...

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom 11:28-29)

So in short although God makes a distinction between spiritual and natural Israel it does not mean He has fully rejected the natural branches...e.g. land promises; for the promises are irrevocable.

 

[SeaBass]

Though 'enemies' to the gospel God's purposes concerning them continue ...

As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom 11:28-29)

So in short although God makes a distinction between spiritual and natural Israel it does not mean He has fully rejected the natural branches...e.g. land promises; for the promises are irrevocable.

God did not force those Jews to be enemies against their will, they chose that themselves. And they could chose to become part of the elect by obeying Christ.

God's gift and calling to the unbelieving Jews is unchanging, they could come to Christ at anytime through the gospel. So GOd has not fully rejectd fleshly Jews for they can still obey the gospel and be part of the elect.

The land promise was CONDITIONAL, Joshua 23:14-16.

 

[crossnote]

God did not force those Jews to be enemies against their will, they chose that themselves. And they could chose to become part of the elect by obeying Christ.

God's gift and calling to the unbelieving Jews is unchanging, they could come to Christ at anytime through the gospel. So GOd has not fully rejectd fleshly Jews for they can still obey the gospel and be part of the elect.

The land promise was CONDITIONAL, Joshua 23:14-16.

Of course v.16 is speaking of the conditional Mosaic Covenant which they failed but the unconditional land covenant was to Abraham and his descendents.

"Have you not observed that these people are saying, 'The LORD has rejected the two clans that he chose'? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight. Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them."
(Jer 33:24-26)

 

[crossnote]

God did not force those Jews to be enemies against their will, they chose that themselves. And they could chose to become part of the elect by obeying Christ.

God's gift and calling to the unbelieving Jews is unchanging, they could come to Christ at anytime through the gospel. So GOd has not fully rejectd fleshly Jews for they can still obey the gospel and be part of the elect.

The land promise was CONDITIONAL, Joshua 23:14-16.

Sorry, I missed this part also...you don't chose to be part of the elect, rather it's the elect that choose Him.
Remember also there was a time the Gentiles rejected God as a whole...usually referred to as the Flood.

 

[SeaBass]

Of course v.16 is speaking of the conditional Mosaic Covenant which they failed but the unconditional land covenant was to Abraham and his descendents.

"Have you not observed that these people are saying, 'The LORD has rejected the two clans that he chose'? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight. Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them."
(Jer 33:24-26)

Josh 23:16 "When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you."



There were other covenants God made with fleshly Israel that are said to be "everlasting" but they were everlasting in the sense as long as Israel was God's chosen. If fleshly Israel everlastingly remained remained God's chosen those covenants would have been everlasting but since Israel broke those covenants, God cut them off and there was no one left to be tied with those covenants....so they ended.

 

[SeaBass]

Sorry, I missed this part also...you don't chose to be part of the elect, rather it's the elect that choose Him.
Remember also there was a time the Gentiles rejected God as a whole...usually referred to as the Flood.

The elect now is the group "Christian". And people do chose to be a Christian or not. Being a Christian is my choice not one made for me.


So God chose the group "Christian" and man must chose to be in that chosen group....if he desires to be part of the elect.

 

[Karraster]

The elect now is the group "Christian". And people do chose to be a Christian or not. Being a Christian is my choice not one made for me.


So God chose the group "Christian" and man must chose to be in that chosen group....if he desires to be part of the elect.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [SUP]27 [/SUP]for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [SUP]28 [/SUP]As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [SUP]31 [/SUP]even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.