Salvation, Forgiveness, Grace, Faith, and Works

Chester · Oct 18, 2016

I thought that OSAS defenders believed that the Christian no longer had free will. For the most part, I have found that they are adamantly opposed to this idea. Instead they would say that the believer is free to choose, but because of understanding God's love and goodness, the Christian will not choose to deny Christ. God is able to keep the Christian and will not lose him.

See a thread and poll I did earlier: "How do eternal security and free will relate together for the Christian". There seem to be differences of opinion about this idea among OSAS believers.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2016

eph610 said:

Where does this come from? This is a silly argument

I must have free will to chose to accept Gods gift. God is not going to force me to take it.

Predestination, Chosing, picked, selected does not rule out free will is in tact.

Those things are determined on Gods knowlegde

Knowledge of what?

Who would "freely" chose to say yes to God..

What amazes me is anti-osas teaches reject predestination, chosing, and all those things..

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2016

Chester said:

Please. put this thought out of your mind This is not true in any sense (maybe the most ardent calvanists would say this, But not even calvin himself believed that free will was removed.)

eph610 · Oct 18, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

EG you say its not true, but most OSAS people I speak to say free will is not either real, or that it is removed when you are saved and that friend is not the truth....

Chester · Oct 18, 2016

valiant said:

Do you believe then that we have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation? - and that then this means that only those who are predestined by God to be saved will get into heaven - and that once (and since) God has chosen this group then they will make it to heaven because God will do the work and not be unfaithful to his promises?

If the above is not what you believe, how does your belief differ from it? Trying to understand . . .

eph610 · Oct 18, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

you call it silly, but it is found in every small church in our small town that believes in OSAS....

They say either free will does not exists and you were predestined to be saved, or that you lose free choice when you get saved....Dallas Theological Cemetery is filled with professors that teach this....

With all due respect, you belong to a home church movement.....and that might be why you don't hear it all the time...

Chester · Oct 18, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

I guess it depends on viewpoint:

I am thinking of a certain person I know when I say this: If a person seems to have had a clear testimony and love for the Lord, but then changes - now he does not profess faith in God and wants nothing to do with God. Belief in OSAS forces me to bring "judgment" on this individual by saying that his initial experience was not the new birth. Either that, or I would have to say that if this individual would die right now, that he would go to heaven. And that seems quite wrong to me!

But I do agree that it is God, and not man that decides eternal destiny.

Having said that, God surely has given us His Spirit in our spirit and He will certainly give us a burden for those that are lost: we do not need to just let them go because "we should not judge them"

Chester · Oct 18, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

No! but that fellow sure did!

Chester · Oct 18, 2016

Grandpa said:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Oh lucky reader. Look what you have stumbled upon. But don't call it OSAS. Call it Blessed Assurance. It seems to make people less upset...

No problem with this! Amen and amen and amen and amen and amen and then some more!

Chester · Oct 18, 2016

Utah said:

It sounds like you are talking about my denomination! At least it could be!

I hate it as much as you do.

Grandpa · Oct 18, 2016

eph610 said:

Ever notice that many OSAS defenders stay away from talking about free choice/free will? They use terms to describe salvation like predestined, chosen, picked, selected, etc. They also convey a form of universalism, that no matter how bad you live, you can always come back because of grace...The stay away from talking about free will/free choice regarding maintaining/expanding relationship with Father, Son and Holy Ghost after salvation, because it would imply that God's greatest gift of salvation is based on covenant relationship....

If the law was based on covenant and Israel went whoring all the time, what makes us think under the New Covenant, free choice/ free will went out the window? OSAS suggests the removal of free will/free choice and according to my Bible, that is not what God, the Son or Holy Ghost has ever done....

Now watch they will say free will/free choice only amounts to initial salvation and nothing else...this is why they can comfortably tell you other souls don't matter if they are saved an still living like hell, because they are saved...and that there does not have to be any evidence of the manifestation of the kingdom of God to the world, or that maintaining and expanding relationship with the God head is warranted, because it manifests itself is automatically when we become his children....and we don't have to work at it...

Covenant relationship is who God is and always will be...

What needs to be defended?

Did you read the first two verses posted?

Salvation is a gift. God does not take His Gifts back.

Free will/free choice is something you'll have to take up with God. It'll be quite the conversation. I wouldn't mind listening in.

Chester · Oct 18, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

See post #41 - I have put this thought out of my mind - at least I try - still doesn't make sense to me?! (Like I guess some things you think I must believe!

Was what I posted in #41 a fair representation of what you and others would believe about free will?

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2016

Chester said:

Nah, I do not need to preach.

Just ell me what you believe true faith is,, The greek may help? (the english language is flawed)

EG wrote: "Is grace only given to a lost sinner? and is it only given to awaken faith so you can hear and believe? Is it not much more than this?"

Response: Of course not - believers also need God's grace daily - I was just focusing in on initial salvation.

Click to expand...

I would say all men and women all over the earth no matter if they are saved or not, need Gods grace, for apart from it, we would be doomed.

EG wrote: "That's fine, But I think this is the cruxt of the issue that separates what you believe and what I believe. And you can not understand what I believe until you understand what these two terms mean."

Response: I would like to hear your definitions of grace and faith. You are right that this may be a key difference in what we believe. But I wonder if our definition differences come from a different perception of Scripture - and that comes from our preconceived notions taught to us!

Click to expand...

Or maybe we just take what the terms actually meant to the people who originally were taught the terms. and not today's watered down english words which can have so many meaning?

EG wrote: "

Click to expand...

Actually I just asked a question, it had nothing to do with you saying "stay saved" I have no problem with that, It is just you associated that with sanctification. Which is where I would disagree, but do not want to assume anything.

If sanctification is the process of "staying saved" then what level of sanctification does one have to come to to "stay saved" (see my point?)

so I will ask again, What did you mean by that.. I again do not want to assume.

I suppose that in some respects our differences on OSAS are going to cause this division if I talk about "stay saved". I do believe a Christian can lose their salvation and so they have the privilege of daily continuing to believe and thus they "stay saved". To me "stay saved" has the same joy and deep satisfaction as "get saved": because it means that today I am resting deeply on the finished work of Christ for my salvation. When I say "stay saved" - you think of works - I think of the deep daily joy of relationship and faith in Christ! Yes, really! I am not kidding!

Click to expand...

So you must depend on your ability to remain in faith every day, If YOU FAIL, you lost salvation.

Now do you see why I would see this as a peerson trying to work to save himself. You know how much work a person must do to daily trust God in all areas? It is not easy, if it was, Christians would mature in Christ automatically,, And never struggle.

sort of.

again what is faith..?

yes I agree there are different levels. Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can help a person move a mountain. You ever seen a mustard seed?

EG wrote: "

Click to expand...

I have yet to find the word used for anything other than eternal. Jesus in John 6 told us what it was, He said we would never die, Live forever.. How can we confuse this. Even if we use it as meaning "age" or lifetime, We again can go to jesus words, and say this lifetime will not end (they will live forever)

But getting aside from what I feel is an important point of understanding the Greek word: I hear this thought - If it is possible to lose the gift of eternal life, then if was not "eternal" life. Nonsense! If I quit having faith and hence lose God's gift, his gift of eternal life still stands as an invitation and a free gift! My having faith or not having faith does not change "eternal life". If I give you the gift of "everlasting use of my car" and after two years you give the car back to me, my offer still stands. I hesitate using illustrations like the above because the bounds of the wealth of God's kingdom is always limited when conveyed in finite language.

Click to expand...

Then I will call nonsens,

if God says I will never die and I die, God lied Period!

Jhn 6:

vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

and then we have a picture of predesitination and foreknowledge.

vs 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe

God knows. we can not fool God. God is not going to save us, Give us all the things he promised, Adopt us as his children, Give us the seal and guarantee of the spirit.

then one day say, Wow. I did not see that coming, That person lost faith in me and wants to give his gift back..

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2016

eph610 said:

Who are most

I grew up in many baptist churches and never heard a person say free will is not an issue.. I have heard a FEW people say this, But only in chat rooms, they certainly are not the majority.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2016

eph610 said:

with all due respect. you do not know me at all.

I grew up under Dallas theological influences. and studied under many people who graduated from there.

I also grew up baptist. And did not go to the church I go to now until about ten years ago. So most of myu christian life was under baptist influence.

And never until a went into a chat room and heard a hard core Calvinist say no one had free will had I ever heard the things you have stated.

So please. If your going to judge, Try not to assume anything.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2016

Chester said:

I guess it depends on viewpoint:

I am thinking of a certain person I know when I say this: If a person seems to have had a clear testimony and love for the Lord, but then changes - now he does not profess faith in God and wants nothing to do with God. Belief in OSAS forces me to bring "judgment" on this individual by saying that his initial experience was not the new birth. Either that, or I would have to say that if this individual would die right now, that he would go to heaven. And that seems quite wrong to me!

But I do agree that it is God, and not man that decides eternal destiny.

Having said that, God surely has given us His Spirit in our spirit and He will certainly give us a burden for those that are lost: we do not need to just let them go because "we should not judge them"

what viepoint?

I was lost. If I died when I was a prodigal son, would I have went to hell?

Chester · Oct 18, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

I will let God be the judge on that one!

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2016

Chester said:

Yeah he did,

He made the mistake of thinking he had faith, when he had no faith at all..

1 John 2: [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

who are they?

People who decided they did not have faith in Christ anymore. who instead of being with Christ, Became ANTIchrist

eternally-gratefull · Oct 18, 2016

Chester said:

I believe God made us to realate. (you can not have a relationship with a robot)

Thus God made us with free will, even the will to reject him. (I know thats amazing is it not. Yep. thats my God.)

But God loved us so much, He also made a way, that for those who freely chose, can use their free will to chose to repent and be saved. and those who freely chose, he will allow to remain in unbelief and condemn themselves.

Grandpa · Oct 18, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Not anymore than I was not my childrens father anymore when they said "you aren't my dad anymore".

I would call it the temper tantrum stage of childhood. I don't want to you to be my dad because you don't give me everything I ask for.

When you grow up a little you will realize things were withheld for your own good.

But a son can never divorce His Dad.

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