Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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Mar 12, 2014
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#1
In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.


Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff


It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.



A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?



So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#2
"Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone"

- John Calvin
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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3,202
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#4
the famous counterexample to this argument is the thief on the cross next to Christ.

his faith however wasn't without any works - he believed, and confessed with his mouth, and these are not non-actions.

i don't disagree with what you're saying, but the point that no action we can take can ever justify ourselves before God shouldn't be lost. "faith without works is dead" and also is works without faith! for no matter how great things you do, without love, they are nothing, and "we love, because Christ first loved us" - so that no acceptable work is done but by the grace of God, who gives us strength to do them, and by whose propitiation they are made acceptable.

does that in any way mean we can or ought to sit back and do nothing for God? no, no, no.

Thus says the Lord of hosts:
"These people say the time has not yet come to rebuild the house of the Lord.”
Then the word of the Lord came by the hand of Haggai the prophet,
“Is it a time for you yourselves to dwell in your paneled houses, while this house lies in ruins?"
(Haggai 1:2-4)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
20,974
3,202
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#5
A contradicting statement if there ever was one.
why do you say that? haven't you read:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
(Ephesians 2:8)

faith alone saves.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(James 2:20)

saving faith is not alone.
 
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Mar 12, 2014
6,433
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#6
the famous counterexample to this argument is the thief on the cross next to Christ.

his faith however wasn't without any works - he believed, and confessed with his mouth, and these are not non-actions.

i don't disagree with what you're saying, but the point that no action we can take can ever justify ourselves before God shouldn't be lost. "faith without works is dead" and also is works without faith! for no matter how great things you do, without love, they are nothing, and "we love, because Christ first loved us" - so that no acceptable work is done but by the grace of God, who gives us strength to do them, and by whose propitiation they are made acceptable.

does that in any way mean we can or ought to sit back and do nothing for God? no, no, no.

Thus says the Lord of hosts:
"These people say the time has not yet come to rebuild the house of the Lord.”
Then the word of the Lord came by the hand of Haggai the prophet,
“Is it a time for you yourselves to dwell in your paneled houses, while this house lies in ruins?"
(Haggai 1:2-4)
Another about the thief, he is not an example of NT savlation. He was promised paradise while CHrist and he were still both alive under the OT law.

If no action we take can justify us, then no action at all on our part is ever necessary to be saved, and we have man saved by "doing ntohing" which is not possible at all.

[And James did say "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"]
 
Feb 7, 2014
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#7
What kind of work is to be done in order to express our faith as living?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
12,537
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#8
For one to become a Christian one must receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. There is nothing else required to become a Christian. In fact Jesus did everything required for the believer to become a Christian. Gods grace is wholly, completely and eternally sufficient to save every soul that comes to Christ.

Your problem remains that you cannot distinguish between what is required to become saved and what the expected result is of said salvation. You are trying unsuccessfully to make the result the causation.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to satisfy God. Christ did everything God demanded. You can receive salvation as a gift or your can reject it and attempt to force God to accept your concept of salvation. How did that work out for Cain and Abel?

1 Corinthians God said that He chose the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. To those that believe it is the power of God unto salvation to those that perish it is foolishness.

It is expected that anyone professing to know Jesus Christ as Savior will live according to what the bible teaches. No one however has any business telling him if he's doing it the way they think he should or not. Each one must give account to Christ for what they have done since salvation. Give account to Christ not to other "Christians".

Works follow salvation. They cannot precede salvation nor do they have any merit towards salvation. Grace alone is sufficient or we are all lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#9
why do you say that? haven't you read:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
(Ephesians 2:8)

faith alone saves.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(James 2:20)

saving faith is not alone.
I say that for it is not possible for something to be alone and not alone at the same time.

Eph 2:8 does NOT say saved by grace ALONE through faith ALONE. That would be a contradictory statement.

The word "alone" is an exclusionary word, it excludes everything else.

So if salvation was by "faith ALONE" then that excludes everything from savlation that is not faith...."faith alone" therefore excludes grace.

If salvation was by grace alone, then that excludes everything else from savlation that is not grace...."grace alone" therefore excludes faith.


As someone else once put it, if "Faith" and "Grace" were the names of two women, can a man be married to "Grace alone" and "Faith alone" at the same time? No, for he can only be married to only one woman alone at the same time.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,325
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#10
In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.


Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff


It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.



A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?



So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?
You were saying?
Colossians 2:6-7

King James Version (KJV)

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

How did you receive Him? In faith, without works. So, how do you walk in him? By faith. We walk into the works God made beforehand, but walking in them is not what has saved you, it is the blood of Jesus Christ, His sacrifice. The whole thing, death, burial, and resurrection. Works are a fruit of salvation, but not the root of salvation.

You seem to think that works has a place in your salvation. They do not. Not on any level, lest you can boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9, which I will post for you below) They have no place whatsoever in your salvation, they neither save you, or keep you saved. The ONLY place works has, is in that of rewards when we are judged upon the mercy seat of Christ (Bema). Remember, even then it says "
he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."(1 Corinthians 3:15)

Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



All these MUST's you have seem very legalistic and works orientated. The only must to be a born-again child of God, whom is saved, is that you MUST believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God (and what He has done on your behalf). Any other "must" and you are adding upon the grace of God.



 
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Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#11
What kind of work is to be done in order to express our faith as living?
One issued I rasied was this; can a Christian NOT work therefore NOT provide for his own house yet still be saved?

If you answer this "yes" then you are implying one that has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel can be saved.

If no answer "no", then that implies doing a good work as providing for one's own house is necessary for a Christian to maintain his salvation, that the Christian maintianing his savlation is CONDITIONAL upon his doing good works, Eph 2:10.


Or is he trying to merit his salvation by dong this secular work to keep from being lost?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
20,974
3,202
113
#12
it's not as though James and Paul disagree with each other.
i don't try to do good works in order to please God.
i try to do good works because it pleases God.
if i say "i love to eat figs" but i refuse to taste one, do i really love to eat figs?
but if i scowl and curse the taste of them when i eat them, i don't love eating figs at all.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#13
For one to become a Christian one must receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. There is nothing else required to become a Christian. In fact Jesus did everything required for the believer to become a Christian. Gods grace is wholly, completely and eternally sufficient to save every soul that comes to Christ.

Your problem remains that you cannot distinguish between what is required to become saved and what the expected result is of said salvation. You are trying unsuccessfully to make the result the causation.

There is absolutely nothing you can do to satisfy God. Christ did everything God demanded. You can receive salvation as a gift or your can reject it and attempt to force God to accept your concept of salvation. How did that work out for Cain and Abel?

1 Corinthians God said that He chose the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. To those that believe it is the power of God unto salvation to those that perish it is foolishness.

It is expected that anyone professing to know Jesus Christ as Savior will live according to what the bible teaches. No one however has any business telling him if he's doing it the way they think he should or not. Each one must give account to Christ for what they have done since salvation. Give account to Christ not to other "Christians".

Works follow salvation. They cannot precede salvation nor do they have any merit towards salvation. Grace alone is sufficient or we are all lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You posted "For one to become a Christian one must receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. There is nothing else required to become a Christian."

So one does not have to believe, repent, confess or submit to water bpatism? In others words youarae saying a unbelieivng, impenitent denier of Christ in his unremitted/unforgiven sins can be saved?



Eph 2:10, one that is already a Christian does not have to walk in good works God pre-ordained the Chrsitian to walk in? One can thwart, undo what God has pre-dained for the Christian to do? The Christian does not have to keep Christ's works to overcome, Rev 2:26, not be faithful unto death, Rev 2:10 not walk in the light so all his sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ, not have to work to provide for those of his own house????


You claim "Works follow salvation"

If this is true, the big question: can one NOT do these works that follow salvation yet still be saved?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,325
505
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#14
One issued I rasied was this; can a Christian NOT work therefore NOT provide for his own house yet still be saved?

If you answer this "yes" then you are implying one that has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel can be saved.

If no answer "no", then that implies doing a good work as providing for one's own house is necessary for a Christian to maintain his salvation, that the Christian maintianing his savlation is CONDITIONAL upon his doing good works, Eph 2:10.


Or is he trying to merit his salvation by dong this secular work to keep from being lost?
Law condemns the best of us, and Grace saves the worst of us. The answer, by the way, to your question is, "Yes." The man can get on welfare. He isn't providing, the state is. Haha! Gotcha! ;) Kidding aside, on that point it is still a "yes" because, again, his salvation was never dependent upon his actions. Christ and Christ alone. Does it make him a piece of crap human being for deserting his family? I'm sure many would say so. Does it cost him his salvation? What do you say of the Corinthian church who were in all manner of sin (including temple prostitutes) and Paul addresses them in this manner:

1 Corinthians 1:3-8

King James Version (KJV)

3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Feb 7, 2014
361
2
0
#15
One issued I rasied was this; can a Christian NOT work therefore NOT provide for his own house yet still be saved?

If you answer this "yes" then you are implying one that has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel can be saved.

If no answer "no", then that implies doing a good work as providing for one's own house is necessary for a Christian to maintain his salvation, that the Christian maintianing his savlation is CONDITIONAL upon his doing good works, Eph 2:10.


Or is he trying to merit his salvation by dong this secular work to keep from being lost?
I'm asking what work are we to do? We must understand the work that demonstrates faith in order to do it. How can I provide for my house if I do not know the work I am to do?
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
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#16
You were saying?
Colossians 2:6-7

King James Version (KJV)

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

How did you receive Him? In faith, without works. So, how do you walk in him? By faith. We walk into the works God made beforehand, but walking in them is not what has saved you, it is the blood of Jesus Christ, His sacrifice. The whole thing, death, burial, and resurrection. Works are a fruit of salvation, but not the root of salvation.

You seem to think that works has a place in your salvation. They do not. Not on any level, lest you can boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9, which I will post for you below) They have no place whatsoever in your salvation, they neither save you, or keep you saved. The ONLY place works has, is in that of rewards when we are judged upon the mercy seat of Christ (Bema). Remember, even then it says "
he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."(1 Corinthians 3:15)

Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



All these MUST's you have seem very legalistic and works orientated. The only must to be a born-again child of God, whom is saved, is that you MUST believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God (and what He has done on your behalf). Any other "must" and you are adding upon the grace of God.



Hi,

My arument in the OP is a man cannot be saved without ever doing some kind of work at soem time in his life.

You quoted Col 2:6,7 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving"

For the sake of my argument, let's assume for a moment I received Christ by faith alone.

After having received Christ do I have to do the works of walking in him (see also 1 Jn 1:7 about walking) and abound in the faith? Can I just do nothing and yet still be saved?

You quote Eph 2:8,9 but what about verse 10 where God pre-ordained that Christians walk in good works? Can a Christian not walk in those good works, that is, thwart what God has preordained yet still be saved?


So can a man do nothing to become saved? Can he do nothing to remain saved?

Can a Christian not do work and thereby not provide for his own house and yet still be saved?
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
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#17
it's not as though James and Paul disagree with each other.
i don't try to do good works in order to please God.
i try to do good works because it pleases God.
if i say "i love to eat figs" but i refuse to taste one, do i really love to eat figs?
but if i scowl and curse the taste of them when i eat them, i don't love eating figs at all.
James and Paul do not contradict each other for they were not talking about the same type of works.

When James said man is justified by works he was speaking about an obedient working faith. When Paul said man is not justified by works, he was talking about works of merit.

James: faith without works does not justify
Paul: works without faith does not justify
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,283
160
63
#18
Hi,

My arument in the OP is a man cannot be saved without ever doing some kind of work at soem time in his life.

You quoted Col 2:6,7 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving"

For the sake of my argument, let's assume for a moment I received Christ by faith alone.

After having received Christ do I have to do the works of walking in him (see also 1 Jn 1:7 about walking) and abound in the faith? Can I just do nothing and yet still be saved?

You quote Eph 2:8,9 but what about verse 10 where God pre-ordained that Christians walk in good works? Can a Christian not walk in those good works, that is, thwart what God has preordained yet still be saved?


So can a man do nothing to become saved? Can he do nothing to remain saved?

Can a Christian not do work and thereby not provide for his own house and yet still be saved?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
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#19
Law condemns the best of us, and Grace saves the worst of us. The answer, by the way, to your question is, "Yes." The man can get on welfare. He isn't providing, the state is. Haha! Gotcha! ;) Kidding aside, on that point it is still a "yes" because, again, his salvation was never dependent upon his actions. Christ and Christ alone. Does it make him a piece of crap human being for deserting his family? I'm sure many would say so. Does it cost him his salvation? What do you say of the Corinthian church who were in all manner of sin (including temple prostitutes) and Paul addresses them in this manner:

1 Corinthians 1:3-8

King James Version (KJV)

3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You answered "yes"

So you are saying one who deines the faith and is worse than an infidel can still be saved???????????
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#20
I'm asking what work are we to do? We must understand the work that demonstrates faith in order to do it. How can I provide for my house if I do not know the work I am to do?
The work you do does not matter. It could be washing cars. You wash cars to provide for your house. If one was a Christian does he not have to do this work of washing cars, thereby not provide for his own house but still be sved?
 
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