SALVATION: SINGLE ACT OR PROCESS?

[eric51]

christian: It seems that many non-Apostolic christans misunderstand the Apostolic doctrine of salvation. They think that the Apostolic Church teaches salvation by works as if we christians were trying to earn their way to heaven. This is frustrating because we know that the Church does not teach salvation by our own good works.

OBJECTOR: Perhaps the reason is that we hear this view from so many Apostolic Christians. When we ask them how they hope to go to heaven, they tell us that if they are good, they hope they will be in heaven with God for eternity. But I do know better. I know you believe in salvation by grace coming from God through faith in Christ.

christian: I am so glad to hear you say that.

OBJECTOR: Nevertheless, I still think that the Church compromises the true gospel of Jesus Christ by its belief that salvation is a process rather than a one-time act of God. It believes that salvation is a cooperation between God and man in which man plays at least as important a role as God does.

christian: We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them. But it is not true that man plays as important a role as God. God the Father planned our salvation, not man. God the Son gained our salvation by his death and resurrection; no one else did these things. And God the Holy Spirit infused the very love of God into our hearts by his presence (cf. Rom. 5:5). This is beyond our human ability. Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever.

OBJECTOR: But that seems to me when the Church teaches that we must work with God to achieve our salvation, it takes glory away from God the Savior.

christian: No, the Church teaches that only God can save us. If that weren’t true, then Christ died for nothing. All that we do is respond with faith and obedience to God’s offer of grace in Christ. We insist that this is a lifelong commitment that should grow over time. God’s grace grows within us as we trust in God more and follow his commandments. The final outcome of a life of faith and obedience is eternal life with God.

OBJECTOR: What you describe sounds like a compromise. How can salvation be a process when Acts 16:31 says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"? Paul affirms this same decisive act of salvation in Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

christian: The Church affirms the teaching of these texts. They are calling us to decisive trust in Christ. We affirm that trust in Christ is essential to salvation. But are faith in and confession of Christ a one-time event, or are faith and verbal confession necessary for one’s entire life? We believe the Bible teaches that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure, as it were. One must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.

OBJECTOR: Anyone who takes the Bible seriously must affirm that obedience and works flow from true faith. What is objectionable is that the Apostolic Church confuses faith and works by making both of them necessary for salvation.

christian: Wouldn’t you say that works are necessary? Doesn’t James 2:17 teach that faith without works is dead?

OBJECTOR: Of course works are necessary as evidence that the faith of the person believing is real and genuine, but that is different from believing, as your Church teaches, that works play an essential role in our final salvation. The root of the problem with your Church's teaching is that it confuses justification and sanctification by seeing salvation as a process that lasts one’s lifetime.

christian: We do believe that works are evidence of true faith, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.

OBJECTOR: That cannot be right, because justification is an act of God’s grace. This means that God justifies us when we believe in Christ. He declares us righteous for Christ’s sake, not because of our own merits. James is saying that Abraham’s offering of Isaac was a work that justified his faith. Sanctification or the pursuit of holiness is essential to prove our faith but it is not what saves us. Christ saves us!

christian: But sanctification is Christ actively saving us! You say that Abraham’s work of offering up Isaac justified his faith as being real. But James 2:21 asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" From this James concludes in verse 22: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works." This language of "active along with" and works "completing" faith is the language of cooperation.

OBJECTOR: I agree that we must cooperate with God in our sanctification because it is a process that lasts a lifetime. But sanctification is not what really saves us. What saves us is the merits of Christ being credited to our account. This "credit exchange" takes place in justification, an act of God’s grace that occurs when we believe in Christ and trust him completely.

christian: We agree that justification begins the Christian life. And as I implied above, acts of justification or forgiveness may occur at many points in our lives. For example, when a priest declares a sinner forgiven in confession, this is an act of justification. We insist that many justifications take place in our lives as we journey toward heaven. These acts of justification are necessary for our growth in holiness or sanctification.

OBJECTOR: Well, as I said, your Church muddies the waters of salvation by its conflation and confusion of justification and sanctification. This makes our salvation depend on our degree of personal holiness. But because our growth in holiness cannot ever be complete in this life, we can never know whether we will be saved or not. That shows that the Apostolic view cannot be true, because the New Testament is full of assurance of salvation. One of the more well-known verses is 1 John 5:13.

christian: We think that many Christians seriously misread the New Testament when it comes to the assurance of salvation. Though we can’t examine many texts on assurance right now, I can say that 1 John 5:13 has been ripped out of its context in John’s letter. If you examine chapters 4 and 5 of this small letter carefully, you will see that "this" refers to acts of love of neighbor, love of God, holding to orthodox teaching, and so on. In other words, John is not giving a blank check for assurance of heaven. He is giving a conclusion of a long list of indicators by which a person can know he is saved. John agrees with James. Good works give a relative assurance that one is in good standing with God.

OBJECTOR: Maybe you have a point on 1 John, but making our salvation dependent on a certain degree of personal holiness is wrong, because it transfers our trust from Christ to ourselves.

christian: I don’t see that the pursuit of holiness in any way takes our trust away from Christ and puts it in ourselves. It seems to me that Hebrews makes it very clear that without holiness "no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). Why would the author say this? Because God is holy and, if we’re going to live with God forever, we too must be holy. So our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained

 

[watchmen]

Definitely a process.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

We must endure until the end to receive final salvation, receiving Christ as Lord is the beginning of the process, not the end

 

[Thaddaeus]

Definitely a process.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

We must endure until the end to receive final salvation, receiving Christ as Lord is the beginning of the process, not the end

with Most of matthew not all but most He is talking to the jews, He came for the house of israel and they rejected him, if you take matt.10:22 in it's content it is talking about the phyiscal body being saved.

Mt 10:20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.Mt 10:21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.Mt 10:22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.Mt 10:23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.Mt 10:24The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.Mt 10:25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
Let streeeeesssssss this again every time the Bible mentions death it is not always referring to a spiritual death.


1co 5:5To deliver such an one unto SATAN for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Baruch]

christian: It seems that many non-Apostolic christans misunderstand the Apostolic doctrine of salvation. They think that the Apostolic Church teaches salvation by works as if we christians were trying to earn their way to heaven. This is frustrating because we know that the Church does not teach salvation by our own good works.

OBJECTOR: From the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church: "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation." Pg. 320, #1257

"The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude..." Pg. 320, #1257

"The faithful are born anew by Baptism..." Pg. 311, #1212

"Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, and are incorporated into the Church..." Pg. 312, #1213

"Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." Pg. 222, #837

"The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation." Pg. 292, #1129

"There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation of Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony." Pg. 289, #1113

"The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'" Pg. 215, #816

"...all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation..." Pg. 224, #846

 

[Baruch]

christian: We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them. ........Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever.

OBJECTOR: Romans 4:4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 11:5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. ....9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Matthew 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 3:24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

.... and that same man is justified by faith without the deeds of catholicism.

 

[Baruch]

christian: The Church affirms the teaching of these texts. They are calling us to decisive trust in Christ. We affirm that trust in Christ is essential to salvation. But are faith in and confession of Christ a one-time event, or are faith and verbal confession necessary for one’s entire life? We believe the Bible teaches that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure, as it were. One must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.

OBJECTOR: Romans 4: 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Titus 3:4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Chocolate]

christian: It seems that many non-Apostolic christans misunderstand the Apostolic doctrine of salvation. They think that the Apostolic Church teaches salvation by works as if we christians were trying to earn their way to heaven. This is frustrating because we know that the Church does not teach salvation by our own good works.

OBJECTOR: Perhaps the reason is that we hear this view from so many Apostolic Christians. When we ask them how they hope to go to heaven, they tell us that if they are good, they hope they will be in heaven with God for eternity. But I do know better. I know you believe in salvation by grace coming from God through faith in Christ.

christian: I am so glad to hear you say that.

OBJECTOR: Nevertheless, I still think that the Church compromises the true gospel of Jesus Christ by its belief that salvation is a process rather than a one-time act of God. It believes that salvation is a cooperation between God and man in which man plays at least as important a role as God does.

christian: We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them. But it is not true that man plays as important a role as God. God the Father planned our salvation, not man. God the Son gained our salvation by his death and resurrection; no one else did these things. And God the Holy Spirit infused the very love of God into our hearts by his presence (cf. Rom. 5:5). This is beyond our human ability. Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever.

OBJECTOR: But that seems to me when the Church teaches that we must work with God to achieve our salvation, it takes glory away from God the Savior.

christian: No, the Church teaches that only God can save us. If that weren’t true, then Christ died for nothing. All that we do is respond with faith and obedience to God’s offer of grace in Christ. We insist that this is a lifelong commitment that should grow over time. God’s grace grows within us as we trust in God more and follow his commandments. The final outcome of a life of faith and obedience is eternal life with God.

OBJECTOR: What you describe sounds like a compromise. How can salvation be a process when Acts 16:31 says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"? Paul affirms this same decisive act of salvation in Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

christian: The Church affirms the teaching of these texts. They are calling us to decisive trust in Christ. We affirm that trust in Christ is essential to salvation. But are faith in and confession of Christ a one-time event, or are faith and verbal confession necessary for one’s entire life? We believe the Bible teaches that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure, as it were. One must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.

OBJECTOR: Anyone who takes the Bible seriously must affirm that obedience and works flow from true faith. What is objectionable is that the Apostolic Church confuses faith and works by making both of them necessary for salvation.

christian: Wouldn’t you say that works are necessary? Doesn’t James 2:17 teach that faith without works is dead?

OBJECTOR: Of course works are necessary as evidence that the faith of the person believing is real and genuine, but that is different from believing, as your Church teaches, that works play an essential role in our final salvation. The root of the problem with your Church's teaching is that it confuses justification and sanctification by seeing salvation as a process that lasts one’s lifetime.

christian: We do believe that works are evidence of true faith, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.

OBJECTOR: That cannot be right, because justification is an act of God’s grace. This means that God justifies us when we believe in Christ. He declares us righteous for Christ’s sake, not because of our own merits. James is saying that Abraham’s offering of Isaac was a work that justified his faith. Sanctification or the pursuit of holiness is essential to prove our faith but it is not what saves us. Christ saves us!

christian: But sanctification is Christ actively saving us! You say that Abraham’s work of offering up Isaac justified his faith as being real. But James 2:21 asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" From this James concludes in verse 22: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works." This language of "active along with" and works "completing" faith is the language of cooperation.

OBJECTOR: I agree that we must cooperate with God in our sanctification because it is a process that lasts a lifetime. But sanctification is not what really saves us. What saves us is the merits of Christ being credited to our account. This "credit exchange" takes place in justification, an act of God’s grace that occurs when we believe in Christ and trust him completely.

christian: We agree that justification begins the Christian life. And as I implied above, acts of justification or forgiveness may occur at many points in our lives. For example, when a priest declares a sinner forgiven in confession, this is an act of justification. We insist that many justifications take place in our lives as we journey toward heaven. These acts of justification are necessary for our growth in holiness or sanctification.

OBJECTOR: Well, as I said, your Church muddies the waters of salvation by its conflation and confusion of justification and sanctification. This makes our salvation depend on our degree of personal holiness. But because our growth in holiness cannot ever be complete in this life, we can never know whether we will be saved or not. That shows that the Apostolic view cannot be true, because the New Testament is full of assurance of salvation. One of the more well-known verses is 1 John 5:13.

christian: We think that many Christians seriously misread the New Testament when it comes to the assurance of salvation. Though we can’t examine many texts on assurance right now, I can say that 1 John 5:13 has been ripped out of its context in John’s letter. If you examine chapters 4 and 5 of this small letter carefully, you will see that "this" refers to acts of love of neighbor, love of God, holding to orthodox teaching, and so on. In other words, John is not giving a blank check for assurance of heaven. He is giving a conclusion of a long list of indicators by which a person can know he is saved. John agrees with James. Good works give a relative assurance that one is in good standing with God.

OBJECTOR: Maybe you have a point on 1 John, but making our salvation dependent on a certain degree of personal holiness is wrong, because it transfers our trust from Christ to ourselves.

christian: I don’t see that the pursuit of holiness in any way takes our trust away from Christ and puts it in ourselves. It seems to me that Hebrews makes it very clear that without holiness "no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). Why would the author say this? Because God is holy and, if we’re going to live with God forever, we too must be holy. So our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained

A single act that takes a process to keep. Salvation is free but maintainability is a cost that costis everything. Salvation is a walk. It start with the first step. Stop walking and you can loose it.

 

[Baruch]

christian: Wouldn’t you say that works are necessary? Doesn’t James 2:17 teach that faith without works is dead?

OBJECTOR: That was about faith in God's Providence; not about the faith in regards to salvation. James was addressing that faith in God's Providence towards the assembly in leading by example in the eyes of the poor by parting from the bounty collected at the church to feed and clothe the poor of what the church did not need immediately, but the poor did. By doing so, their issuance of faith toward the poor to be warm and to be filled will profit the poor in how the church led by example of that faith in God's Providence as the faith of that church would save the poor from starvation and the elements.

Keep James in cointext because scriptures plainly states elsewhere that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

You cannot be considered His unless you were saved.

1 Corinthians 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Timothy 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

2 Timothy 2: 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Baruch]

christian: We do believe that works are evidence of true faith, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.

OBJECTOR: Romans 4:16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

with Most of matthew not all but most He is talking to the jews, He came for the house of israel and they rejected him, if you take matt.10:22 in it's content it is talking about the phyiscal body being saved.

Jesus Christ is of the House of Judah.

Hebrews 8:8-10

"For finding fault with them, He saith "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My covenant and I regarded then not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD; I will put My laws into their mind and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people."

Matthew 15:24

"I was not sent except unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

The house of Israel did not 'reject Jesus' and neither did the house of Judah, both house are in covenant with God as Christians as was prophecied by Jeremiah 31:31-37 and confirmed in the Book of Hebrews, only the children of the devil rejected and crucified Christ as the truth was not in them for they were not His sheep, His sheep hear Him and follow Him and He cannot lose one, that is impossible He is the Great Shepard!

 

[jaylynn83]

i like processes ...... such as procsessed meat.....processed canned spam......... There is one process i do not like.... and thats the process of getting up in the morning!!

 

[Baruch]

christian: But sanctification is Christ actively saving us! You say that Abraham’s work of offering up Isaac justified his faith as being real. But James 2:21 asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" From this James concludes in verse 22: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works." This language of "active along with" and works "completing" faith is the language of cooperation.

OBJECTOR: Faith in God's Providence in James was active by those works if the church supplied the immediate needs of the poor from the bounty collected of what the church did not need immediately, trusting God to provide when they do... thus leading by example as their faith in God's Providence can be seen in the eyes of the poor thus faith completed by works as in by example.

Sanctification is proof of God having saved us as His, thus we have already received sanctification.

1 Corinthians 1:29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:12That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

 

[Baruch]

christian: We agree that justification begins the Christian life. And as I implied above, acts of justification or forgiveness may occur at many points in our lives. For example, when a priest declares a sinner forgiven in confession, this is an act of justification. We insist that many justifications take place in our lives as we journey toward heaven. These acts of justification are necessary for our growth in holiness or sanctification.

OBJECTOR: Mark 2: 7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. 12And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 10: 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.... 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door:

Hebrews 4: 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians 1:19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

 

[Baruch]

christian: We think that many Christians seriously misread the New Testament when it comes to the assurance of salvation. Though we can’t examine many texts on assurance right now, I can say that 1 John 5:13 has been ripped out of its context in John’s letter. If you examine chapters 4 and 5 of this small letter carefully, you will see that "this" refers to acts of love of neighbor, love of God, holding to orthodox teaching, and so on. In other words, John is not giving a blank check for assurance of heaven. He is giving a conclusion of a long list of indicators by which a person can know he is saved. John agrees with James. Good works give a relative assurance that one is in good standing with God.

OBJECTOR: No. By those standard then, no one can know if they have that assuarance. Here's why.

James 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

If every catholic can say they have assurances by good works, then why the last rites?

Herbrews 10:21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

 

[Baruch]

christian: I don’t see that the pursuit of holiness in any way takes our trust away from Christ and puts it in ourselves. It seems to me that Hebrews makes it very clear that without holiness "no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). Why would the author say this? Because God is holy and, if we’re going to live with God forever, we too must be holy. So our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained

1 John 3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Colossians 1:18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Thus the just shall live by faith in Him and all His promises to us for eternal life as well as to help us live as His which is also by the grace of God.

Ephesians 2: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Titus 3: 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[MahogonySnail]

If salvation is a process, you would have to explain how a person can be less saved yesterday than they were today. Aren't you either saved, or you aren't. Being half saved doesn't make sense. That's like saying the Pope is half Muslim, and is more Christian today than he was yesterday.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Catholics are earning their way into heaven. This is evidenced even in their own doctrine of purgatory, good works or penance will grant you faster passage through purgatory to heaven. Therefore, you are earning your way into heaven by your own works. You are paying off your debts which Christ was supposed to have already paid for. The Catholic doesn't understand or ever feel what it means to be saved, doesn't know if they are saved or not, and the average Catholic is afraid of dying, knowing that it could result in possibly 1000 years of torment in purgatory. Christians believe that God imputes righteousness WITHOUT works:

Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works,

 

[Thaddaeus]

Process, but not a process done by man but rather the process done by Christ for man, He lived , He Bleed, He died and He arose.

Joh 6:25And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?Joh 6:26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.Joh 6:27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.Joh 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?Joh 6:29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Jesus Christ is of the House of Judah.

Hebrews 8:8-10

"For finding fault with them, He saith "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My covenant and I regarded then not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD; I will put My laws into their mind and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people."

Matthew 15:24

"I was not sent except unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

The house of Israel did not 'reject Jesus' and neither did the house of Judah, both house are in covenant with God as Christians as was prophecied by Jeremiah 31:31-37 and confirmed in the Book of Hebrews, only the children of the devil rejected and crucified Christ as the truth was not in them for they were not His sheep, His sheep hear Him and follow Him and He cannot lose one, that is impossible He is the Great Shepard!

Ro 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blindedRo 11:8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.Ro 11:9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:Ro 11:10Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.Ro 11:11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.Ro 11:12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?Ro 11:13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Joh 19:12And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.Joh 19:13When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.Joh 19:14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!Joh 19:15But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.Joh 19:16Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
Man what kind of teaching have you been under

Mt 21:42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders REJECTed, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

 

[eric51]

Catholics are earning their way into heaven. This is evidenced even in their own doctrine of purgatory, good works or penance will grant you faster passage through purgatory to heaven. Therefore, you are earning your way into heaven by your own works. You are paying off your debts which Christ was supposed to have already paid for. The Catholic doesn't understand or ever feel what it means to be saved, doesn't know if they are saved or not, and the average Catholic is afraid of dying, knowing that it could result in possibly 1000 years of torment in purgatory. Christians believe that God imputes righteousness WITHOUT works:

Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works,

You are priceless, an endless source of entertainment. Do not go away; promisse to stay here and amuse me.

Purgatory is a way station on the way to heaven. I, for the life of me don't see how that translates into a faster route to salvation.

OBJECTOR: A friend of mine told me that some Apostolic Christians don’t believe in purgatory anymore. I found that hard to believe because you guys are so slow in changing things.

CHRISTIAN : Your friend is going more on hearsay than on solid knowledge. The Church has not given up its belief in purgatory because purgatory is a dogma of the faith, or what we may call a de fide doctrine.

OBJECTOR: I thought so. But that presents a big problem for me. Your Church claims to follow the teachings of the Bible, but I can find no mention of it in Scripture.

CHRISTIAN : Before I show you some biblical references, tell me what you understand by the teaching on purgatory, because I often find that it is misunderstood.

OBJECTOR: Purgatory is like a second chance for people who have not been good disciples of Jesus in this world. If they didn’t follow him, they can work off their sins in purgatory and go to heaven. I see purgatory as another instance of your Church's dependence on good works as a means of salvation. Purgatory is not heaven or hell but an in-between state in which people are punished for their wrongs in this life that were not forgiven.

CHRISTIAN: Your understanding is not what the Church teaches. It may surprise you to know that the Church makes very few binding statements about what purgatory is. The most important statement is: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven". So, you see, purgatory is not a second chance after this life. It is only for those who "die in God’s grace and friendship."

OBJECTOR: What does it mean to "die in God’s grace and friendship"? Romans 10:9 says that if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. It doesn’t say anything about undergoing a purification after death. All the holiness we need to enter heaven is in Christ. If we trust him, we will be saved.

CHRISTIAN: The language of dying in God’s grace is another way of saying that when we die we must have faith in Christ, as Romans 10:9 says. But Paul did not intend his words in this text to be taken as the complete story. We have to interpret one text in the Bible in the light of the whole Bible.

OBJECTOR: I agree, but there is not one word about purgatory in the Bible.

CHRISTIAN: Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." You see, the Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Paul in these verses refers to a purgation process whereby a man is saved even though his works are burned away. This is precisely what the Church teaches. A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

OBJECTOR: You said we need to interpret verses of the Bible in context, but you left out verse 13: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done." You see it speaks about "the Day." That means the Day of Judgment, not some intermediate state of purgatory.

CHRISTIAN: Of course we don’t really know what day Paul is talking about, so it would be arbitrary to limit it to the final Day of Judgment. I take it that we both believe in a personal judgment after death and a general judgment at the end of history.

OBJECTOR: Yes, but it makes much more sense to me to read this as referring to the general judgment. It speaks about a day that brings one’s work to light, not about a process of purification. Even if this text could refer to the personal judgment, it doesn’t show that the notion of purgatory is true.

CHRISTIAN: Assuming that the text could refer to the personal judgment, what do you see in the idea of purgatory that’s not found in this passage?

OBJECTOR: Well, the most obvious difference is that it doesn’t mention anything like praying for the dead, which is a major part of the Church’s teaching on purgatory.

CHRISTIAN: I agree that these verses don’t mention prayers for the dead, but other passages in the Bible do. The most obvious is 2 Maccabees 12:40–45. When Judas prays and has sacrifices offered for soldiers who died in battle, he is commended for acting "very well and honorably."

OBJECTOR: The book of 2 Maccabees isn’t inspired, so you can’t say that this shows scriptural support for purgatory.

CHRISTIAN: We’ll have to discuss the inspiration of Maccabees some other time, but at least this passage shows that even before Christ the Jewish people recognized the need for purification from sins after death and believed that the prayers and sacrifices of those still living could aid in this purification. The Church didn’t make up this idea.

OBJECTOR: Well, even if the Catholic Church didn’t make it up, that doesn’t mean it’s true. We are under the New Covenant, so many of the precepts of the Old Law, such as dietary laws, no longer apply. This need for purification after death could be one of those things.

CHRISTIAN: I agree that we cannot say that everything present in Judaism before Christ is something that applies to our state after Christ. Even so, the indication in Maccabees of purification after death is not a precept but a belief, and so it is not in the same category as dietary laws. Furthermore, the New Testament shows a continuity with this idea. For example, Matthew 12:32 says that some people who sin "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This suggests that there are some sins that will be forgiven in the age to come. If there is no purification after death, then this passage doesn’t make much sense.

OBJECTOR: Jesus wasn’t speaking about the distinction between this life and the next; rather, he was making a distinction between the age under the Old Covenant and the age under the New Covenant.

CHRISTIAN: That interpretation doesn’t make sense, though, because it doesn’t fit with the context of the verse. Right before this, Jesus had been casting out demons, and he announced that the kingdom of God had come. He’s saying that the kingdom of God is already present; it would make little sense for him to then refer to the dominion of the kingdom as an "age to come."

OBJECTOR: Even so, this could just mean that at the moment of our death, we are purified and forgiven. The testing in 1 Corinthians 3:14–15 could be instantaneous. I don’t see any evidence in the Bible that souls actually exist after death in a state of existence that is neither heaven nor hell.

CHRISTIAN: The Church doesn’t exclude the possibility that purgatory could be an instantaneous purification, but there are indications in the Bible that souls do exist in some state that is neither heaven nor hell. Look at 1 Peter 3:19–20. These verses show Jesus preaching to "to the spirits in prison." The "prison" cannot be heaven, because the people there do not need to have the Gospel preached to them. It cannot be hell, because the souls in hell cannot repent. It must be something else. As you can see, there is nothing unbiblical about the claim that those who have died might not immediately go to heaven or to hell.

OBJECTOR: Even if the passages you cite do refer to some state other than heaven or hell, this doesn’t automatically imply purgatory, because the "spirits in prison" died before Christ’s sacrifice opened the way to heaven. The condition in 1 Peter is not necessarily the same as purgatory.

CHRISTIAN: It is certainly possible that the state mentioned here, often called "the limbo of the fathers," is a state other than that of purgatory, but at least we’ve established that there is nothing contrary to Scripture in asserting that those who have died can be in a temporary state other than heaven or hell.

OBJECTOR: Well, I can understand why people who died before Christ might have been in a state other than heaven or hell, but the idea of purgatory seems inconsistent with the love of God. If God really loves us, why would he want us to go to purgatory and suffer for our sins?

CHRISTIAN: On the contrary, the idea of purgatory, when properly understood, is entirely consistent with the love of God. God wants us to be perfect (cf. Matt. 5:48). If we are not perfected by the time we die, we will be perfected in purgatory. He loves us too much to allow us to be less than what he created us to be. Purgatory is not about an angry God inflicting punishment upon his creatures. It is about a loving Father who "disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness" (Heb. 12:10).