SALVATION: SINGLE ACT OR PROCESS?

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May 3, 2009
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#21
Catholics are earning their way into heaven. This is evidenced even in their own doctrine of purgatory, good works or penance will grant you faster passage through purgatory to heaven. Therefore, you are earning your way into heaven by your own works. You are paying off your debts which Christ was supposed to have already paid for. The Catholic doesn't understand or ever feel what it means to be saved, doesn't know if they are saved or not, and the average Catholic is afraid of dying, knowing that it could result in possibly 1000 years of torment in purgatory. Christians believe that God imputes righteousness WITHOUT works:

Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works,
Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

Be in Christ
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#22
Then what do you make of the example of Abraham that Paul gives:

Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


It seems that Paul's focus in these passages is not on works alone, or works accompanying faith, but on the belief (or disbelief) itself.

It was Abraham being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised, that God justified him.

Rom 4:24 but for us also to whom it is to be imputed, to the ones believing on Him who has raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;




Jesus also spoke similar when he contrasted himself being lifted up and nailed to the cross, and whoever believes in him will be saved.. with the example of Moses and the serpent:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

You know, all the people who were bitten (i.e. sin) had to do was to look upon the serpent (i.e. believe) and they were healed (Num 21), no works required. The same with Christ, all we need to do is believe in Christ, and we saved.

Even though faith without works is dead, and works shows our faith, it seems that God justifies the ungodly simply on the basis of their belief. It could be said, in Abraham's case when he believed God's promise and was declared righteous by God, he was justified by "faith alone" that very moment.

 
May 3, 2009
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#23
Then what do you make of the example of Abraham that Paul gives:

Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


It seems that Paul's focus in these passages is not on works alone, or works accompanying faith, but on the belief (or disbelief) itself.

It was Abraham being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised, that God justified him.

Rom 4:24 but for us also to whom it is to be imputed, to the ones believing on Him who has raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;




Jesus also spoke similar when he contrasted himself being lifted up and nailed to the cross, and whoever believes in him will be saved.. with the example of Moses and the serpent:

Joh 3:14AndasMoseslifted uptheserpentinthewilderness,even somusttheSonofmanbelifted up:
Joh 3:15Thatwhosoeverbelievethinhimshouldnotperish,buthaveeternallife.

You know, all the people who were bitten (i.e. sin) had to do was to look upon the serpent (i.e. believe) and they were healed (Num 21), no works required. The same with Christ, all we need to do is believe in Christ, and we saved.

Even though faith without works is dead, and works shows our faith, it seems that God justifies the ungodly simply on the basis of their belief. It could be said, in Abraham's case when he believed God's promise and was declared righteous by God, he was justified by "faith alone" that very moment.
We have heard this dog bark before, however, it doesn't hunt. I have previously discussed these verses. Yes, Abraham's belief in God, his "faith" in God does initially justify him, and he is being "saved" at that moment in the sense he is currently pleasing to God. But also note v. 21 comments on that he is able to "perform". That performance is an act.

Paul in those verses is emphasizing the "faith" or belief of Abraham because ROMANS is all about Paul emphasizing to Jews that doing works from the heart, from God's grace is necessary if works are to have any salvific effect. He is attacking the belief system of many Jews at that time, that the simple ministerial act of carrying out of specified works ["works of Law" or "works of righteousness"]under Mosaic Law made one right with God. Paul compares this type of thinking to an employee-employer CONTRACT where carrying out one's performance obligates the other under Law. PAUL is saying, NO. God is not an employer, and simply doing a prescribed act to obligate God, to put God in "debt", will not work. God is God and cannot be obligated by man. And God is only pleased if one does a good work out of Love, out of Grace, rather than with the expectation that God is now obligated to do something for you.

Need to look at ROMANS in its entirety, rather than concentrating on a few verses which if viewed all by themselves, you like. Paul is not downplaying good works. This is quite clear if you look at all of Paul's writings. Paul, like James, believes that good works complete faith if they are done out of God's grace.

James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Chrisitan theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).


Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.
Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace . But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Christian teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#24
Let's see...

Romans chapter 10-- saved by calling out to Jesus for salvation.. pure and simple.. one off act

The prisoner next to Jesus.. He had no time to do good works - to earn his way to heaven.. he just believed Jesus.. and Jesus gave Him a place in paradise-- one off act.

There is a difference between saving faith.. and THE faith

saving faith-- is when someone is regenerated by teh Holy Spirit when they place their trust in Jesus. Eternal life begins straight away.

John 5:24, John 3:16, Romans chapter 10, Ephesians 2:8-9 etc etc..

THE faith-- daily service to Jesus:

* Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

* James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

* 1Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.


The distinction between saving faith and THE faith

saving faith-- has no strings.. not conditions.. Jesus keeps the salvation of an individual through His unconditional commitment

THE faith-- is conditional on getting rewards once we are in heaven. It is trying to build gold that endures when we are before God.

Don't serve Jesus as you should and He will not **** someone to hell.. because He has committed to that person through His unconditional payment for that person's sin.

When we get to heaven.. if we have received Christ.. God passes over our sins.. He does not count them against us.. but does look at our works in terms of what rewards we get in heaven.

(1Co 3:10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(1Co 3:11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(1Co 3:12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(1Co 3:13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(1Co 3:14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(1Co 3:15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

(Rev 22:12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(Rev 22:13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(Rev 22:14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(Rev 22:15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Notice in Revelation-- this group of dogs, sorcerers etc.. are not in hell.. but outside the gates of the heavenly Jerusalem church. Heaven is not just the heavenly Jerusalem.. it extends beyond it.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#26
Works do not save anyone (Paul), however, when you are saved there should be works to show that salvation(James). they do not contradict each other.

Salvation is a once and for all in the past act (for those saved) Regeneration,Justification,Sanctification (Adoption)-Sanctification.

I have sanctification twice in that list, one is difinitive, a difinitive act by the Spirit and then progressive until Glorified.

Or I suppose you could just read the 'Golden Chain' in Romans.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#27
If salvation is a process, you would have to explain how a person can be less saved yesterday than they were today. Aren't you either saved, or you aren't. Being half saved doesn't make sense. That's like saying the Pope is half Muslim, and is more Christian today than he was yesterday.
2nd Corinthians 1
9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

He has delivered us, is delivering us, and will deliver us, sounds on going to me. :)
 
J

jgrig2

Guest
#28
both. It is a process that starts at conversioin and God faithfully maintains till Heaven because of his Promesses made in Christ.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#29
An Excerpt from On Those who Think that They are Made Righteous by Works: Two Hundred and Twenty-Six Texts

by St. Mark the Ascetic

1. In the texts which follow, the beliefs of those in error will be refuted by those whose faith is well founded and who know the truth.


2. Wishing to show that to fulfil every commandment is a duty, whereas sonship is a gift given to men through His own Blood, the Lord said: 'When you have done all that is commanded you, say: "We are useless servants: we have only done what was our duty"' (Luke 17:10). Thus the kingdom of heaven is not a reward for works, but a gift of grace prepared by the Master for his faithful servants.


3. A slave does not demand his freedom as a reward; but he gives satisfaction as one who is in debt, and he receives freedom as a gift.


4. 'Christ died on account of our sins in accordance with the Scriptures' (I Cor. 15:3); and to those who serve Him well He gives freedom. 'Well done, good and faithful servant,' He says, 'you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many: enter into the joy of your Lord' (Matt. 25: 21).


5. He who relies on theoretical knowledge alone is not yet a faithful servant: a faithful servant is one who expresses his faith in things Christ through obedience to His commandments.


6. He who honours the Lord does what the Lord bids. When he sins or is disobedient, he patiently accepts what comes as something he deserves.


7. If you love true knowledge, devote yourself to the ascetic life; for mere theoretical, knowledge puffs a man up (cf. I Cor. 8:1).
. . .
11. Those who, because of the rigour of their own ascetic practice, despise the less zealous, think that they are made righteous by physical works. But we are even more foolish if we rely on theoretical knowledge and disparage the ignorant.


12. Even though knowledge is true, it is still not firmly established if unaccompanied by works. For everything is established by being put into practice.


13. Often our knowledge becomes darkened because we fail to put things into practice. For when we have totally neglected to practise something, our memory of it will gradually disappear. [For the preceding two instructions cf. James 1:22-24]


14. For this reason Scripture urges us to acquire the knowledge of God, so that through our works we may serve Him rightly.


15. When we fulfil the commandments in our outward actions, we receive from the Lord what is appropriate; but any real benefit we gain depends on our inward intention.


16. If we want to do something but cannot, then before God, who knows our hearts, it is as if we have done it. This is true whether the intended action is good or bad.


17. The intellect does many good and bad things without the body, whereas the body can do neither good nor evil without the intellect. This is because the law of freedom applies to what happens before we act.


18. Some without fulfilling the commandments think that they possess true faith. Others fulfil the commandments and then expect the Kingdom as a reward due to them. Both are mistaken.


19. A master is under no obligation to reward his slaves; on the other hand, those who do not serve him well are not given their freedom.


20. If 'Christ died on our account in accordance with the Scriptures' (Rom. 5:8; 1 Cor. I5: 3), and we do not 'live for ourselves', but 'for Him who died and rose' on our account (2 Cor. 5:15), it is clear that we are debtors to Christ to serve Him till our death. How then can we regard sonship as something which is our due?


21. Christ is Master by virtue of His own essence and Master by virtue of His incarnate life. For He creates man from nothing, and through His own Blood redeems him when dead in sin; and to those who believe in Him He has given His grace.


22. When Scripture says 'He will reward every man according to his works' (Matt. 16:27), do not imagine that works in themselves merit either hell or the kingdom. On the contrary, Christ rewards each man according to whether his works are done with faith or without faith in Himself; and He is not a dealer bound by contract, but God our Creator and Redeemer.


23. We who have received baptism offer good works, not by way of repayment, but to preserve the purity given to us.


24. Every good work which we perform through our own natural powers causes us to refrain from the corresponding sin; but without grace it cannot contribute to our sanctification.


From The Philokalia, vol. 1 (London: Faber & Faber, 1979), pp. 125-127.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#30
Works are Necessary for One's Salvation

A Letter to a Layman

by St. Macarius of Optina

I set forth my poor judgment not from my own meager understanding, but—hoping in the God of wisdom and Lord, Who grants speech even to irrational beasts for the benefit of His people—I set it forth from His word and from the writings of the God-inspired Fathers, who after an active life left us their teaching as guidance.


Faith is the foundation of all good deeds, and without faith it is impossible to please the Lord (Heb. 11:6). She is the gift of God (cf. Mark 16:16; Matt. 28:19-20).


The Holy Apostle James teaches: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works, can faith save him?... Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.... For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also (James 2:14,17,26).


For our salvation one needs not simply faith alone, but works also. The words of the Apostle Paul: By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified (Romans 3:20) refer to the works of the Old Testament laws and not to the new commandments of grace.


The reasoning that justification is obtained by faith alone without works is Lutheran, heterodox.


But he who trusts in his own works even with faith errs.

After baptism it is without fail necessary to keep God's commandments, by which the grace given at baptism is preserved and, to the measure of one's proficiency in the commandments, is increased.


Having transgressed the commandments, by repentance one again acquires grace. All this acts through faith, but without faith one could not perform deeds of repentance.


In every case both faith and deeds are involved.


But one must not think that one's deeds merit salvation: the merits of the Savior afford us this.


One must do good deeds but not place hope in them. To place hope in one's deeds is a sign of self-reliance. The Lord does not always grant us strength to perform good deeds, but rather allows the passions to be strengthened in us so that we might acknowledge our weakness and humble ourselves before God, remembering God's commandment: Whenever you do what has been commanded you, say we are unprofitable servants,for we have done that which it was our duty to do (Luke 17:10). Read in Volume One of The Philokalia the book by St. Mark the Ascetic, "On Those Who Think that They are Made Righteous by Works" (Chapters 1-7, 11-24).


Knowing that deeds are necessary for salvation and striving to perform them, one finds no strength in oneself, one is conquered by the passions, one is troubled and perplexed as to what to do. Of course, placing one's hope in God and on the prayers of those who pleased Him can help much in the work of our salvation, but becoming troubled at one's fall proceeds from spiritual pride. The evil spirits oppose our salvation: our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour (I Peter 5:8).


"If you love true knowledge, devote yourself to the ascetic life, for mere theoretical knowledge puffs up a man" (St. Mark the Ascetic).*


Our warfare is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and against the world rulers of darkness of this age and against spiritual wickedness in the under heavens (Eph. 6:12).


Fighting with such foes, one must have a strong weapon against them, and that is humility, which they cannot oppose. But in doing battle with them without humility, self-reliantly and proudly, one will always be defeated. For this reason the Lord allows us to fall so that we might humble ourselves (see Homily 51 of St. Isaac the Syrian and also in Volume One of The Philokalia, Homilies 7 and 46 of St. John of Karpathos). A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise (Ps. 50:17) and The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a contrite heart and He will save the humble of spirit (Ps. 33:18).


From Elder Macarius of Optina, by Fr. Leonid Kavelin (Platina, CA: St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood Press, 1995), pp. 316-319.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#31
Salvation by Grace or Works?

"Christian life," says Fr. Thomas Hopko in his lecture The Church & Liturgy, "is a miracle of grace." The Orthodox Church definitively teaches and believes that a person is saved entirely by the grace of God. But at the same time, this movement of God towards us does not overwhelm or abolish the human will, as Bishop Kallistos (Ware) notes: "We should consider that the work of our salvation is totally and entirely an act of divine grace, and yet in that act of divine grace we humans remain totally and entirely free." Or, as the second century Epistle to Diognetes puts it: "God sent his Son to save us – to persuade us but not to compel: for force is alien to God." While Calvin said that the capacity of humans to choose good was destroyed after the Fall, Orthodoxy would say that the will has become distorted and sickly, but not altogether dead. On the Orthodox understanding of the fall and its consequence, humans – retaining as they do the divine image – retain also the freedom to choose between right and wrong" [94].

Historically there has been much suspicion among Protestants as to the role of human will in our salvation—i.e., synergy, or cooperation with God’s grace (see Note-T). The understanding of the Orthodox position is further complicated because the Pelagian controversy (see Note-P) was a Western phenomenon, and this in turn makes it all too easy to transfer Western presuppositions onto Orthodoxy. As Hinlicky explains: "In the Western context, Lutherans were allergic to the term ‘synergy’ because of the Pelagian connotation it had for them, suggesting a self-initiated movement to God that, as such, could merit the grace of justification. This allergic reaction rendered them incapable of grasping or utilizing it in its Eastern sense to describe the new person of faith, who works with the Spirit in the battle against the flesh" [95]. Theosis and justification working together can help shed light on the subject of synergy: "Integrating these two anthropologies [Lutheran doctrine of divine righteousness and Orthodox theosis], we see that justifying faith wholly involves the human will and its uncoerced participation, yet not in any Pelagian sense in which the will retains its Adamic form of autonomy over against God. Justifying faith is the concrete, nonmeritorious synergy of the new person in Christ with the Holy Spirit, inasmuch as on this side of the reign of God’s coming in fullness, the new person in Christ is nothing other than the sinner whom the Lord Jesus mercifully and effectively claims by the Spirit. In this light, the apparent dispute about the freedom of the will is shown largely to be the fruit of conceptual confusion" [96].

Essentially, in Orthodoxy grace and free will are not separated or discussed in isolation, thus preventing doctrinal imbalance, as occurred with Pelagius. Free will and our cooperation with God is always understood to be an act of grace. Bishop Kallistos is again helpful here. His comments offer a response to Jones’ question in SBP, in which he queries,—"how do the Eastern Orthodox attempt to explain that salvation is ‘not of yourselves?’" His Grace would reply: "When we speak of ‘cooperation,’ it is not to be imagined that our initial impulse towards good precedes the gift of divine grace and comes from ourselves alone. We must not think that God waits to see how we shall use our free will, and then decides whether He will bestow or withhold His grace. Still less would it be true to suggest that our initial act of free choice somehow causes God’s grace. All such notions of temporal priority or of cause and effect are inappropriate. On the contrary, any right exercise of our free will presupposes from the start the presence of divine grace, and without this ‘prevenient’ grace we could not begin to exercise our will aright. In every good desire and action on our part, God’s grace is present from the outset. Our cooperation with God is genuinely free, but there is nothing in our good actions that is exclusively our own. At every point our human cooperation is itself the work of the Holy Spirit" [97]. This is a far cry from the assertion in SBP that in Orthodoxy "the beginning of salvation is purely by grace but the completion of the process is by human effort."

And Clendenin notes that "Interestingly enough, we can say that for the writers of the Philokalia, the gift of theosis comes by grace through faith, and not by works (see also Note-L). Especially significant here is Mark the Ascetic’s On Those Who Think That They Are Made Righteous by Works. On the contrary, we are, insist Maximus and Peter of Damascus, ‘deified by grace.’ We ‘become god through union with God by faith’" [98]. Orthodoxy teaches, then, that the process of theosis, accompanied as it is by prayer, fasting, almsgiving, the sacramental life, etc., is totally grace driven—it is only made possible because of grace, as it is the life of God within us that provides the strength to sustain these spiritual efforts. When St. Paul writes that "if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Rom. 8:13), this obviously presupposes conscious effort on our part – but it flows from the Spirit, as the epistle says. Similarly, he counsels the Colossians to "Put to death therefore your members on earth; fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).

Jones does not seem to allow for a concept of "will" and "working" that is found in the thought of St. Paul—the kind that is predicated upon grace. He also writes to the Corinthians: "I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me" (1 Cor. 15:10). We can follow St. Paul’s directive to the Philippian church to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" because it is now "God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Php. 2:12-13). His use of the analogy of a runner competing in a race to the life-long process of salvation is another prime example of how we co-operate with the grace of God (cf. 1 Cor. 9:24-27). These Scriptures, and others besides (cf. Eph. 2:8-10), form the core understanding of "work" and "effort" in the Orthodox spiritual tradition [99]. But again, even this conception is evidently anathema to Jones, for he asserts that "climbing up the chain of being, even when aided by grace, is Plotinus again, not New Covenant faith." This is simple misrepresentation, and we can turn to Clendenin again for a more informed explanation concerning the nature of the effort exerted within the life of the Christian: "In Pauline language, we labor and strive, but only through the empowering grace of God working in us (Phil. 2:12-13; 1 Cor. 15:10-11). What direction, exactly, does the human effort take? At the risk of oversimplification, we can summarize the Philokalia and the human means of theosis in one Greek word, nepsis—that is, vigilance, watchfulness, intensity, zeal, alertness, attentiveness, or spiritual wariness. The ‘neptic’ mind-set recognizes the reality of our spiritual warfare, that our Christian life is a strenuous battle, fierce drama, or ‘open contest’ (Theoretikon), and responds accordingly" [100].

The Orthodox concept of synergism, far from being a departure from Apostolic Faith, is attested to in Scripture and repeated throughout the centuries. "It is for God to grant His grace," said St. Cyril of Jerusalem; "your task is to accept that grace and to guard it" [101]. St. John Chrysostom exclaims, "All depends indeed on God, but not so that our free-will is hindered. [God] does not anticipate our choice, lest our free-will be outraged. But when we have chosen, then great is the assistance He brings to us." St. Augustine himself witnesses to a synergism between God and Man, as Thomas Oden explains: "Though not the first, Augustine was the most brilliant exponent of how the action of grace can be both ‘from the will of man and from the mercy of God.’ Thus we accept the dictum, ‘It is not a matter of human willing or running but of God’s showing mercy,’ as if it meant, ‘The will of man is not sufficient by itself unless there is also the mercy of God.’ But by the same token the mercy of God is not sufficient by itself unless there is also the will of man." Commenting on Romans 9:16, St. Augustine states that "If any man is of the age to use his reason, he cannot believe, hope, love, unless he will to do so, nor obtain the prize of the high calling of God unless he voluntarily run for it." Finally, Oden notes "That the synergy of grace and freedom became the consensual teaching of the believing church is clear from the Third Ecumenical Council, held in Ephesus in A.D. 431: ‘For He acts in us that we may both will and do what He wishes, nor does He allow those gifts to be idle in us which He has given to be used and not to be neglected, that we also may be cooperators with the grace of God’" [102].
The Orthodox doctrine of synergy came to its fullest and most refined articulation with the Sixth Œcumenical Synod (680-681). This Synod declared that Christ has both a divine and a human will, and that these two wills co-operated synergistically. This has tremendous ramifications for Christian anthropology. Those who have been organically united to Christ in Holy Baptism (Gal. 3:27) have the Spirit of God living in them; and this Spirit quickens our soul and makes it alive unto God. Our own will then freely co-operates with this newly given Divine Energy which is ever renewed in us through ascetic struggle and participation in the Mystery of His Body and Blood. Thus, the Œcumenical Synods that defined and refined the doctrine of the Person of Christ set forth that, for us who are made in His image, it is not only God’s will that is operative in us (this would be a monoenergistic anthropology – one held by many Reformed Protestants), nor is it our own will working apart from God (this would be Pelagianism), but rather it is the two working together in harmony, neither overwhelming the other (cf. Phil. 2:13-14)."

The Orthodox Church unquestionably and definitively affirms that we are saved by grace through faith. It would be expedient to close this section with an excerpt from an essay on the subject of grace authored by Fr. Thomas Hopko, for in it he concisely summarizes the themes discussed in this section: "We would say that God’s speaking and acting in our world, and God’s entrance into our creaturely being and life is a free gift of God’s mercy and love for us, that there is nothing that we can do to earn or deserve it, and nothing that we can do to stop or prevent it. We would say that there is no human life without participation in God’s self-manifesting activity, and that we human beings are who and what we are because we are made in the image and likeness of God, male and female, for unending divine life. We would say that it is not a matter of God choosing us without or against our will, nor of our choosing or rejecting God. The mystery of God-with-me and I-with-God depends wholly on God to the extent that there is no ‘I’ without God. When I am with God, then I am who and what I am. When I am against God, I am struggling to destroy who and what God creates and saves me to be. This struggle is futile; I cannot rid myself of God’s presence in my being and life. To persist in it is madness and hell. It must be clearly affirmed, nevertheless, that I am not God and God is not me. Without God, I am nothing and can do nothing. With God, I am who I am and can do all things through God who vivifies, illumines and strengthens me. Through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Church, through the preaching of the Word and the celebration of the sacraments, the presence and power of God is given as a gift: pressed down, running over, lavished upon us. All is given by God whether we like it or not, whether we want it or not. When we like it and want it, it is paradise. When we resist it, it is the hell whose very pain is the presence and power of God who is love and truth, peace and joy, beauty and bliss. God is with us. This, simply put, is the meaning of grace. God’s gift of divinity to human persons is undeserved and unmerited, unconditional and unstoppable. It cannot be resisted, yet it may be madly unsuccessfully resisted from our side forever"

To read the ENTIRE article which is pretty lengthy and covers the issue well, CLICK CLICK CLICK




The article is titled:

Salvation By Christ: A Response to the Credenda/Agenda

(A Response to Credenda / Agenda on Orthodoxy’s Teaching of Theosis and the Doctrine of Salvation)

by Carmen Fragapane
 
M

motojojo

Guest
#32
Nice debate, I would say both are needed what good is one without the other? Your saved then you don't do anything to grow in Christ is not good. I think your debate is moot, but good points from both sides.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#33
The problem I got.. is if you HAVE to do good works.. then that is pretty much the same as other religions.. like Muslims Allah.. the way pagans try to reach an enlightened state.. etc

Christianity is different because it is undergirded by the payment for sin.. the only faith system where God does something about our imperfection.. and His perfection.

It is a personal relationship with Jesus.. not belief in a distant God who is not in our spirit.. in our life.

When you are in your own biological family.. you don't HAVE to serve your mum and dad.. if you do.. you will be blessed more.. but if you don't .. you don't undo your biological connection.

Is your family bio connection stronger that Jesus' connection to us? NO WAY! Jesus connection is not bound by death.

So

a saved person MAY do good works.. not WILL

just because the Holy Spirit is inside them.. doesn't mean the Holy Spirit will automatically cause them serve Him.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#34
I agree with Wattie. You don't NEED works to be saved. What you need is to be justified and that is by faith alone , which is in the heart. However, I'm not sure how GOD will treat people who don't have works, or rather...who have done bad works, unfaithful servants. I believe they will suffer the fate of unbelievers , and yes that means hell folks, despite their claimed belief. Look at the Israelites, how many came out of Egypt? , all or most of them... how many reached the promised land? Very few. Coming out of, or saved out of Egypt, was a single act. But coming into the promised land was a process.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#35
I agree with Wattie. You don't NEED works to be saved. What you need is to be justified and that is by faith alone , which is in the heart. However, I'm not sure how GOD will treat people who don't have works, or rather...who have done bad works, unfaithful servants. I believe they will suffer the fate of unbelievers , and yes that means hell folks, despite their claimed belief. Look at the Israelites, how many came out of Egypt? , all or most of them... how many reached the promised land? Very few. Coming out of, or saved out of Egypt, was a single act. But coming into the promised land was a process.
Yes very few that have ''come out of sin'' willl inherite the Kingdom.

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#38
salvation is of the Lord, if it had been posssible for one to work enough to obtain salvation then Jesus could have helped us receive salvation. it was not possible for us to work enough to receive our salvation. so Jesus had to do it for us, James is asking a question not making a statement, the Bible says that Abraham was counted righteous, because his faith if james says different then we have a contradiction within the word which just can not be possible. I think it was chapter 15 in Genesis. when abraham exercised his faith in God, then in chapter 22 or 23 Abraham showed his Faith by his works. but he was counted righteous because of His faith way before his works proved that faith. if it is a process than one could boast on that judgement day, look what I have done Lord. but nay, my friends we will all be on our knees thanking and praising Him for what He did for us at Calvary. at least the ones that have trusted in the Lord for their salvation, I am not sure what the ones will be doing, who think they can earn it themselves. Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

so my answer to this thread is salvation is a single act, That Jesus did when he died for sinners
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#39
Although strictly speaking that single act was really a culmination of a lifelong process of about 30 years as far as Christ was concerned.
 
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