Satan and his angels

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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#21
In Matt 5:37-48, I think Jesus is saying that in order to be perfect like our Father we need to love our enemies.

It seems like loving our enemies is not the "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" method because that is the equivalent of hating our enemies. It kinda seems like Jesus is saying the kind of love that our enemies deserve is something that only God is capable of providing like sunshine and rain for the Earth, without which we wouldn't even be able to have life on Earth as we know it.

The only thing we can do is not resist evil and to pray. Not resisting evil seems like it means we don't require our enemy's eye if they hurt our eye, but that doesn't rule out the possibility there can be no punitive measures taken against an enemy. After all, the passage does clearly define them as our enemies and that didn't change. Also, loving our enemies has to involve providing necessities for them.

So in conclusion, an enemy is the opposite of a neighbor and an enemy would be someone who wants to harm you or someone who won't provide material or physical necessities and blessings for you. Pray for them. I guess just saying their name in prayer and asking God's will be done for them is enough.
if we were to believe what your saying and make it our guide in life it’s salvation we have to face this guys word in the end

If this became our law

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We could then see that it’s about being perfect in mercy towards others Matthew is talking about it isnt sinless perfection but being perfect in mercy

This is contemporary to Luke 6 there

“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:44-45, 48‬ ‭

as he’s explaining this law of mercy to his disciples lovong enemies really turning Moses word upside down in many areas we learn from the gospel that none of us is sinless we’ve all sinned before so we all need mercy because one sin is the same as many it means we now are sentenced to death

the idea is to see our own sinful past lives when dealing with others who are acting sinful towards us. Like God has done for us all we all sinned and are worthy of death by the law , but he gave us mercy anyways our deeds deserved punishment like the person offending us but how will we deal with thoer offense ? Like God the father ? Or like man ?


“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus isn’t going to judge us like Moses would he’s not going to say “ well you sinned so your lost “ we all have already sinned Sonora going to be judgement according to what the gospel says like for instance

judge not and you won’t be judged , forgive and you will be forgiven ect That’s Jesus speaking forward to judgement we want to make sure to always forgive and not retaliate evil for evil but instead leave room for the judge to judge the other person whom offended us like he judges us for all the offended we have been guilty of

if it’s about being sinless everyone is lost of it’s about sinners repenting and believing the gospel and receiving remission of sins then many can be saved as many as will hear and believe the gospel sent to save sinners from jidgement through repentance and changing our belief from corrupt to correct and pure

that happens because we begin hearing and believing the gospel it changes our minds belief our hearts desire. We need to make positively sure we don’t hold thkngs against others so Christ won’t hold anything against us
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,231
3,266
113
#22
if we were to believe what your saying and make it our guide in life it’s salvation we have to face this guys word in the end

If this became our law

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We could then see that it’s about being perfect in mercy towards others Matthew is talking about it isnt sinless perfection but being perfect in mercy

This is contemporary to Luke 6 there

“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:44-45, 48‬ ‭

as he’s explaining this law of mercy to his disciples lovong enemies really turning Moses word upside down in many areas we learn from the gospel that none of us is sinless we’ve all sinned before so we all need mercy because one sin is the same as many it means we now are sentenced to death

the idea is to see our own sinful past lives when dealing with others who are acting sinful towards us. Like God has done for us all we all sinned and are worthy of death by the law , but he gave us mercy anyways our deeds deserved punishment like the person offending us but how will we deal with thoer offense ? Like God the father ? Or like man ?


“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus isn’t going to judge us like Moses would he’s not going to say “ well you sinned so your lost “ we all have already sinned Sonora going to be judgement according to what the gospel says like for instance

judge not and you won’t be judged , forgive and you will be forgiven ect That’s Jesus speaking forward to judgement we want to make sure to always forgive and not retaliate evil for evil but instead leave room for the judge to judge the other person whom offended us like he judges us for all the offended we have been guilty of

if it’s about being sinless everyone is lost of it’s about sinners repenting and believing the gospel and receiving remission of sins then many can be saved as many as will hear and believe the gospel sent to save sinners from jidgement through repentance and changing our belief from corrupt to correct and pure

that happens because we begin hearing and believing the gospel it changes our minds belief our hearts desire. We need to make positively sure we don’t hold thkngs against others so Christ won’t hold anything against us
none of that applies to Satan.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
6,046
2,035
113
#23
none of that applies to Satan.
yeah I never said any of it applied to Satan. I’ve made my view clear regarding Satan being redeemed was responding to another persons post having nothing whatsoever to do with Satan …..
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,978
2,227
113
#24
Your personal belief is correct. The source of the demons is when the serpent committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit by breaking his own breath of life into the Three Lies back in the Garden. That action is the unforgiveable sin and also the original sin, hence why there is no hope of salvation for Satan.
We are not to use our fleshly minds to determine scripture. If we state something is of scripture, it needs scripture backup.

The history of fallen angels is not complete in scripture, but it is in the book of Enoch, and Enoch has been thought of as scripture by thousands of people. If we question the book of Enoch, we need to go to scripture to check it out. There are many scripture verses that verify fallen angels. Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4, Matt. 25:41, Isaiah 14:12-15 for example.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,568
426
83
#25
Here's an interesting verse:

Col 1v20: "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."
 
Oct 9, 2021
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#26
I say Satan and his angels do not qualify for grace. Agree or disagree?
The fallen angels cannot be redeemed for there is nowhere to put off the sin so when they sinned they tainted their whole being with no reversal.

All sin resides in the flesh which in the flesh dwells no good thing but they can put off the flesh and preserve the soul so their whole being is not tainted.
 
Jul 3, 2015
41,458
17,013
113
#27
We are not to use our fleshly minds to determine scripture. If we state something is of scripture, it needs scripture backup.

The history of fallen angels is not complete in scripture, but it is in the book of Enoch, and Enoch has been thought of as scripture by thousands of people. If we question the book of Enoch, we need to go to scripture to check it out. There are many scripture verses that verify fallen angels. Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4, Matt. 25:41, Isaiah 14:12-15 for example.
Thousands of people are wrong about many things every single day. Enoch was never considered inspired by the people who compiled the OT and neither was it considered inspired by NT compilers, until much more recently, (no) thanks to the Catholic church and others.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,770
3,103
113
#28
I say Satan and his angels do not qualify for grace. Agree or disagree?
God has only offered grace to human beings...

the Angels are higher beings, our superiors at the present time.. We humans are simple.. Thus God has offered us very limited beings different options to the angels who have been and are in Gods presence in heaven.. Angels have no excuses because of their superior status..
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,978
2,227
113
#29
God has only offered grace to human beings.....
God is truth, and God does not give different truths to different people. When God gave grace, God did not say this is truth for one people but not for another.
 
Jul 24, 2021
444
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#30
Thousands of people are wrong about many things every single day. Enoch was never considered inspired by the people who compiled the OT and neither was it considered inspired by NT compilers, until much more recently, (no) thanks to the Catholic church and others.
Hello Magenta,
Just FYI.
1 Enoch 71.14 says Enoch is the Messiah. I still cannot believe people quote Enoch as canon.

As per https://archive.org/details/AllTheBooksOfEnochenoch1Enoch2Enoch3/page/n31/mode/2up

1 Enoch 71
71.9 And Michael, and Raphael, and Gabriel, and Phanuel, and many Holy Angels without number, came out from that house.
71.10 And with them, the Head of Days, his head white, and pure, like wool, and his garments; indescribable.
71.11 And I fell upon my face, and my whole body melted, and my spirit was transformed; and I cried out in a loud voice, in the spirit of power, and I blessed, praised, and exalted.
71.12 And these blessings, which came out from my mouth, were pleasing before that Head of Days.
71.13 And that Head of Days came with Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel, and thousands and tens of thousands of Angels without number.
71.14 And that Angel, came to me, and greeted me with his voice, and said to me: "You are the son of man who was born to righteousness, and righteousness remains over you, and the righteousness of the Head of Days will not leave you."
71.15 And he said to me: "He proclaims peace to you, in the name of the world which is to come, for from there, peace has come out, from the creation of the world; and so you will have it, for ever, and for ever and ever.

Note there are many rephrasings as per
https://davidwilber.com/articles/who-is-the-son-of-man-in-enoch#_ftn1
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,978
2,227
113
#31
God has only offered grace to human beings...

the Angels are higher beings, our superiors at the present time.. We humans are simple.. Thus God has offered us very limited beings different options to the angels who have been and are in Gods presence in heaven.. Angels have no excuses because of their superior status..
Grace is a truth of God, not one thing for one of his creation and something different for another. Truth is never dependent on who receives the truth.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
1,178
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Anacortes, WA
#32
This is an interesting premise. Is there a passage in scripture that explicitly supports that?
No problem. Here are a few examples stating that humans and angels are not each other's kin, that Christ died for those under the Law (humans), and that there are "God's elect angels" and "Satan's angels", who are eternal destinations are distinct.


“When the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order to redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:4–5)

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13)

“Not all flesh is the same...there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.” (1 Corinthians 15:39–40)

“I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His elect angels, to maintain these principles without bias.” (1 Timothy 5:21)

Satan, who deceives the whole world was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” (Revelation 12:9)

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;” (Matthew 25:41)
 

Jocund

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
1,079
336
83
#33
No problem. Here are a few examples stating that humans and angels are not each other's kin, that Christ died for those under the Law (humans), and that there are "God's elect angels" and "Satan's angels", who are eternal destinations are distinct.


“When the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order to redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” (Galatians 4:4–5)

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13)

“Not all flesh is the same...there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.” (1 Corinthians 15:39–40)

“I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His elect angels, to maintain these principles without bias.” (1 Timothy 5:21)

Satan, who deceives the whole world was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.” (Revelation 12:9)

““Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;” (Matthew 25:41)
Rom 2:14 would be a fruitful addition to the Galatians references.

Gal 4:4-5 and Gal 3:13 show a group that Christ's sacrifice applies to, but by those passages alone, it does not explicitly exclude other possible unnamed groups. It doesn't exclude the possibility of grace for angels.

1 Cor 15:39-40 is also an interesting choice because prior to the judgement in Revelation, the first resurrection provides incorruptible bodies (of a heavenly nature rather than earthly, if we read to the end of 1 Cor 15). The body that one resides in still wouldn't address the sins, the grace of God is still needed. (It could be the case that an incorruptible body is one of several kinds of heavenly bodies of which angels might have corruptible heavenly bodies at first?).

Angels and men differ, but both worship Christ and both exist as fellowservants. It might be the case that Christ's sacrifice applies only to the redemption of men, but I still don't see a passage that would explicitly make that the case.

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." - Rev 22:8-9 KJV

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." - Rev 19:10 KJV


I can see how one might make the case for angels existing under a different set of rules when it comes to grace, I just don't see evidence that it would be necessarily the case that angels would not be eligible for grace.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
1,178
364
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Anacortes, WA
#34
Before you read my comment, ask yourself this: Why did Jesus have to become a man in order to redeem mankind?
Rom 2:14 would be a fruitful addition to the Galatians references.
Um...sure. Gentiles are humans, not angels.
Gal 4:4-5 and Gal 3:13 show a group that Christ's sacrifice applies to
"a group" contains an assumption that needs to be substantiated before it can be used as a premise.
But to say "those passages reveal who Christ's sacrifice applies to"...is substantiated, and therefore, a dependable premise for arguing a position.

But there is no Biblical evidence that His sacrifice may apply to other kinds of creatures.

the first resurrection provides incorruptible bodies (of a heavenly nature rather than earthly
Correct. A heavenly body is a body that contains no trace of sin's curse; heavenly bodies are fit for (i.e. compatible with) heaven.
Angels and men differ, but both worship Christ and both exist as fellowservants.
Not only Angels and Humans worship God. Even the clouds and stars and animals praise God. All sorts of creatures, sentient and nonsentient, overlap in some areas of similarity. But it has nothing to do with their need or opportunity for mercy.
It might be the case that Christ's sacrifice applies only to the redemption of men, but I still don't see a passage that would explicitly make that the case.
We ought not "go beyond what is written". We form our Biblical positions based on what is written, not what isn't written.
I just don't see evidence that it would be necessarily the case that angels would not be eligible for grace.
Some angels are "elect angels".
Some angels are "Satan's angels".

Two more point to finish this:
1. Jesus had to become a man so that He could redeem those who are affected by Adam's sin. If Christ didn't become a descendent of Adam, then the descendants of Adam couldn't be redeemed from the curse of Adam's sin.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin,
and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—” (Romans 5:12)


“But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.” (Romans 5:15)

“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners,
even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” (Romans 5:18-19)

You'll understand this concept better if you study what the "Kinsmen Redeemer" was in the book of Ruth. Simply put, the redeemer had to be of the same kin as those whom he redeemed. Christ did that for the human race by becoming one of us. He had to represent us to the father as one of our own brethren. You can't represent a race you're not a part of in terms of priestly sacrifice. That's why the animal sacrificial system could never ultimately satisfy God's wrath. We cannot be represented by another kind of creature. We needed a Kinsmen Redeemer.
And for this same reason, a human sacrifice cannot redeem angels.

2. The angels that sinned were imprisoned, and will remain there until judgment (2 Pet 2:4). I.e. the judgment of God will not avoid them.
 
Jan 12, 2022
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#35
1 Corinthians 6:3
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


No grace for the fallen angels.