Seeking an Optical Kingdom

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Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
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#1
(Luke 17:20 KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Since when did the kingdom of God change from "not observable" to one the futurists posit as one that "comes with observation"?

(Mat 12:28 KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The kingdom of God is not observable literally with the optic nerves but by it's effects as shown above in Matt 12:28 as an example.
 
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May 2, 2014
1,060
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0
#3
(Luke 17:20 KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Since when did the kingdom of God change from "not observable" to one the futurists posit as one that "comes with observation"?

(Mat 12:28 KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The kingdom of God is not observable literally with the optic nerves but by it's effects as shown above in Matt 12:28 as an example.
Have you considered that Jesus was only referring to the time he was on earth?
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#4
The Kingdom of God began when Christ was born. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is in your midst and repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. If you place your faith in the work of the cross then you have entered into the kingdom of God. Because we are in this world but not of this world. We are sojourners looking for the homeland.

A Kingdom is a Kings domain. If your are in Christ the you are in His domain and if not then Satan's ( the God of this world). However this is not the perfection.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,622
2,532
113
#5
(Luke 17:20 KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Since when did the kingdom of God change from "not observable" to one the futurists posit as one that "comes with observation"?

(Mat 12:28 KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The kingdom of God is not observable literally with the optic nerves but by it's effects as shown above in Matt 12:28 as an example.
it is the 'coming' that is not observable not the Kingdom itself otherwise...

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
(1Jn 3:2)

and...

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(Jud 1:14-15)

...would make no sense.

I think those eyeglasses need a little help...

cleaner.jpg
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
18
#6
Jude is another example of a theophany and so is this:

Theophanies in the bible:

(2 Ki 6:14 KJV) Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

(2 Ki 6:15 KJV) And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

(2 Ki 6:16 KJV) And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

(2 Ki 6:17 KJV) And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

(2 Ki 6:18 KJV) And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.


Now does anyone believe that the "horses and chariots of fire" were literal and seen with the physical eyes?

Is it not evident that they could only be seen by a vision? There were no physical horses, but we can be assured they were the horses and chariots of heaven.

John has similar visions of the white horses of Jesus as the Lord of hosts coming against 1st century AD Jerusalem:

(Rev 19:13 KJV) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

(Rev 19:14 KJV) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,white and clean.

So why would the literalists think that there is any difference between the vision beheld by Elisha's servant and the one given to John in the revelation?

Why would the woody literalist think the coming of Christ would be optically seen anymore than Elisha's servant optically saw the Lords army?:
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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#7
Mark 11:9-11
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Those who went in front and those who followed were shouting:“Hosanna!
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David;
Hosanna in the highest!”



[SUP]11 [/SUP]Jesus entered Jerusalem and came into the temple; and after looking around at everything, He left for Bethany with the twelve, since it was already late.

Luke 19:37-40
[SUP]37 [/SUP]As soon as He was approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen, [SUP]38 [/SUP]shouting:
Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord;
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”


[SUP]39 [/SUP]Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” [SUP]40 [/SUP]But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#8
Somebody needs to get off of theosophist and study Christ. Just saying.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,622
2,532
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#9
Somebody needs to get off of theosophist and study Christ. Just saying.
Yup, there is a treasure house full of riches in the Person and work of Christ but someone is stuck in 70 AD. Sounds like a lopsided agenda.
 
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Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
18
#10
Here's a lesson on what "coming with clouds" means more theophanies:

(Mat 26:64 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

(Mat 26:65 KJV) Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

"coming in the clouds of heaven.....now ye have heard his blasphemy"

What is interesting to note here is the high priest accuses Jesus of blasphemy - now why would that be?

Because coming on clouds is always spoken of in the scripture in relationship to Deity and especially in regard to judgment.

We can see this in the following scriptures:

(Isa 19:1 KJV) The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

It was the Assyrians who were the instrument of God's wrath on Egypt, though it is said that God was coming on a cloud - Isaiah 20:1-4

Again in Zephaniah:

(Zep 1:14 KJV) The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

(Zep 1:15 KJV) That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Also again in Nahum:

(Nahum 1:3 KJV) The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

In Daniel:

(Dan 7:13 KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The high priest knew from scripture that God was not actually seen with the eyes - they knew what the "coming in clouds" meant and in this case with Jesus he his threatening them with judgment by His own power in bringing the Romans upon them.

And Jesus expressly tells him and the council that they will witness his coming with clouds:

(Mat 26:59 KJV) Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

(Mat 26:63 KJV) But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

(Mat 26:64 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

...the chief priests, and elders, and all the council...shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven

Now that's not to say that all of them lived to see Jesus coming in clouds of heaven but that does not negate the fact that some of them would live to see this.

(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled.

verse 24:34 tells us that ALL things were fulfilled in the generation that were witnesses to his words in the 1st century AD.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,622
2,532
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#11
(Mat 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled.

verse 24:34 tells us that ALL things were fulfilled in the generation that were witnesses to his words in the 1st century AD.
The promised kingdom had already been taken away from that generation. v.34 refers to a future generation of Israel.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(Mat 21:43)
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
18
#12
Future generation?

Maybe the Doctor can help out with the Tardis by bringing the high priest and his cohorts to this "future generation" so they can witness Jesus return.


(Mark 14:60 KJV) And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

(Mark 14:61 KJV) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

(Mark 14:62 KJV) And Jesus said, I am: and YE shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

the high priest - shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven..




The other possibility is that the Jews got a hold of Atlantis high technology and placed the high priest in suspended animation to await awakening when the Israelis dig far enough under the old temple and come across the cryogenic unit.




Are ya with me boys or still Lost In Space...




 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,622
2,532
113
#13
Future generation?

Maybe the Doctor can help out with the Tardis by bringing the high priest and his cohorts to this "future generation" so they can witness Jesus return.


(Mark 14:60 KJV) And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

(Mark 14:61 KJV) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

(Mark 14:62 KJV) And Jesus said, I am: and YE shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

the high priest - shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven..
Didn't answer Matt 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

When was that prophecy fulfilled? 70AD? To whom?
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
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#14
Didn't answer Matt 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

When was that prophecy fulfilled? 70AD? To whom?
The kingdom was taken from the Jews (God had given Israel a writ of divorce in Jeremiah), and given to the Gentiles (the Gentiles that accepted Jesus, not the heathen Gentiles, although the kingdom was offered to all, even the Jews that would accept Jesus). That is my understanding, anyway. I am still human and "reserve the right" to be wrong :)
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
18
#15
Didn't answer Matt 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

When was that prophecy fulfilled? 70AD? To whom?
The fullness of the "kingdom" could not be considered complete until the competing "kingdom" was destroyed in 70AD and the whore cast out.

(Gal 4:30 KJV) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,622
2,532
113
#16
The kingdom was taken from the Jews (God had given Israel a writ of divorce in Jeremiah), and given to the Gentiles (the Gentiles that accepted Jesus, not the heathen Gentiles, although the kingdom was offered to all, even the Jews that would accept Jesus). That is my understanding, anyway. I am still human and "reserve the right" to be wrong :)
Nope, you've drunk the replacement theology Kool-Aid.
God as pictured in Hosea promises to take them back but after much tribulation.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(Jer 31:31-34)

Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
(Hos 2:14-23)

God does not renege on His unconditional covenant promises.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Rom 11:25-29)
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
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#17
only after being tempted by satan and overcomming him,
Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus could have taken his throne over earth then, but he also had to die for our sins

his kingdom is not now on this earth the devil is still here rulling

34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.



 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
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#18
Nope, you've drunk the replacement theology Kool-Aid.
God as pictured in Hosea promises to take them back but after much tribulation.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(Jer 31:31-34)

Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
(Hos 2:14-23)

God does not renege on His unconditional covenant promises.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Rom 11:25-29)
I took the liberty of changing the bolded words.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
#19
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(Jer 31:31-34)
Romans 2:12-16
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [SUP]13 [/SUP]for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [SUP]15 [/SUP]in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [SUP]16 [/SUP]on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus

2 Corinthians 3:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; [SUP]3 [/SUP]being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.


Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
(Hos 2:14-23)
Romans 9:8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; [SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Jesus came through Isaac and Jesus was the promise to the whole world, even the descendants of Jacob.

Romans 15:7-12
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written,“Therefore I will give praise to You among the Gentiles,
And I will sing to Your name.”


[SUP]10 [/SUP]Again he says,
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people.”

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And again,
Praise the Lord all you Gentiles,
And let all the peoples praise Him.”


[SUP]12 [/SUP]Again Isaiah says,
“There shall come the root of Jesse,
And He who arises to rule over the Gentiles,
In Him shall the Gentiles hope.

Acts 13:47-48
[SUP]47 [/SUP]For so the Lord has commanded us,
‘I have placed You as a light for the Gentiles,
That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth.’”


[SUP]48 [/SUP]When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.




For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Rom 11:25-29)
1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [SUP]2 [/SUP]and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (Is Israel not included in "the whole world"; Wasn't Jesus the Deliverer)

1 John 3:5
You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
504
8
18
#20
The promised kingdom had already been taken away from that generation. v.34 refers to a future generation of Israel.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Mat 21:43)
"and given to a nation (ethnos) bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Ethnos:

G1484 ethnos eth'-nos

probably from G1486;

a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish)
one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people

Ethnos in the NT probably 98% of the time is referring to non Israelites.

So how do you establish that the ethnos Jesus is speaking about is some future "Israel" generation?