so you interpret "til the end" to mean til the end of time . so if we die before or all those that are already have died must be faithful in the grave, or that the rich man that died could have started being faithful and stayed faithful til the end of time and been saved. or should we say that the end could mean the end of our life, or in the right context could this have been for those that were in the great tribulation and would have their faith tried til the end? so I am sorry what may appear so clear to you is not so clear as you would say.
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so you interpret "til the end" to mean til the end of time . so if we die before or all those that are already have died must be faithful in the grave, or that the rich man that died could have started being faithful and stayed faithful til the end of time and been saved. or should we say that the end could mean the end of our life, or in the right context could this have been for those that were in the great tribulation and would have their faith tried til the end? so I am sorry what may appear so clear to you is not so clear as you would say.
G
Interesting, this discussion is caused by the same unclear doctrinal comprehension as the topic on another discussion board.
ie Understanding the doctrine of the Church.
The Church started at Pentecost, the giving of the Holy spirit, and goes to the Rapture, when the Holy Spirit is withdrawn. He acts as the seal of Jesus Christ for his members. When the Spirit leaves, we leave.
'He(the Spirit) will let(hinder) until He is taken out of the way.' When he goes, we go.
'You are the salt of the earth' The presence of we believers are the only thing which prevents God from unleashing judgement(tribulation) on a godless world.
Rev 3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[c] 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;[d] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[c] 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;[d] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
ie Understanding the doctrine of the Church.
The Church started at Pentecost, the giving of the Holy spirit, and goes to the Rapture, when the Holy Spirit is withdrawn. He acts as the seal of Jesus Christ for his members. When the Spirit leaves, we leave.
'He(the Spirit) will let(hinder) until He is taken out of the way.' When he goes, we go.
'You are the salt of the earth' The presence of we believers are the only thing which prevents God from unleashing judgement(tribulation) on a godless world.
Rev 3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[c] 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;[d] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[c] 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;[d] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
ok, in Revelatin 6, the seals, happened on all the earth ( the beginning of sorrows; birth pains) 1st. tribulation period; before the catching up of the saints. before the last trump. but as the trumpets sounded, Revelation 8:7 1st trump. some destructions came only on a third part of earth, except for the grass that was there with those trees.... but in the great tribulation which came on those who received the mark of the beast which came after the catching up of the saint, the pouring out of the vials on the earth ( which are the prayers of all saints) it was only on those who received the mark, not everyone who was left behind received the mark of the beast, they did not suffer the wrath of God.
some women experience birth pangs during the whole time, some experience them for three or four days before giving birth, birth pangs is not limited to the very last minute of Birth there is another spain of time that most overlooking here, in the beginning there were two terms of a day a narrow sense of the time period and a broad sense of the same time : day
Ge 1:5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
so we have the lighted part of the day known as day and the lighted part and the dark part together also known as A DAY. so the day of the Lord can have a narrow sense and a broad sense also. so the day of the Lord can cover more time than most will realize, also keep in mind that with the Lord a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day, the hidden things in the scriptures are worth seeking for, a good study on the Birth pangs and times of Jacob's trouble will open some light on a pre-trib rapture. a Good Book that has really helped me is Maranatha Our Lord, Come By Renald Showers
here is just a sample of the times of jacobs trouble
Jer 30:6Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?Jer 30:7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Mt 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
If we can see here that in jer. that day is described so that none is like it, and in matt. no trouble has been since the beginning of time, so if by scripture we link the great tribulation as the troubled times of jacob, then we establish that the two are the same day then that day has to have a broad sense consisting of the seven years of the tribulation as one day, so if the Church is raptured out at the beginning of the tribulation and Jesus touches down on the last part of the day it all still falls under the Day of the Lord.
Ge 1:5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
so we have the lighted part of the day known as day and the lighted part and the dark part together also known as A DAY. so the day of the Lord can have a narrow sense and a broad sense also. so the day of the Lord can cover more time than most will realize, also keep in mind that with the Lord a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day, the hidden things in the scriptures are worth seeking for, a good study on the Birth pangs and times of Jacob's trouble will open some light on a pre-trib rapture. a Good Book that has really helped me is Maranatha Our Lord, Come By Renald Showers
here is just a sample of the times of jacobs trouble
Jer 30:6Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?Jer 30:7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Mt 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
If we can see here that in jer. that day is described so that none is like it, and in matt. no trouble has been since the beginning of time, so if by scripture we link the great tribulation as the troubled times of jacob, then we establish that the two are the same day then that day has to have a broad sense consisting of the seven years of the tribulation as one day, so if the Church is raptured out at the beginning of the tribulation and Jesus touches down on the last part of the day it all still falls under the Day of the Lord.
S
I mean till the end of our lives, that is, we have to keep the faith till the last day of our lives, even during the great tribulation, else we might not meet up in heaven, brother. Christianity was not easy for Jesus and His apostles. Why should it be so comfortable for us? Are we better than they who used to heal the sick and resurrect the dead? Don´t we have to take our cross and follow Him?
They are wrong. The rapture is after the Tribulation, and there will not be any false converts or lukewarm Christians left. They would have either sold out to God or turned on Him. Most will be martyred, and any believer that survives the Tribulation will be a true believer indeed, and will be caught up right after the resurrection of the just at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.
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