Should we study rituals of the OT?

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#1
Paul told us that if we use the rituals to guide us to righteous living we make Christ of no use to us.

Paul also told us that the rituals that God gave people of the OT to follow were like the schoolmasters who guided the children to school, they guided and protected. The problem came in when the people used the rituals as righteous living, not as guides. We are to let the Holy Spirit guide us to the same things the rituals were to guide people to.

The food laws guided them to watch what came into their bodies to be sure it was clean. We are to watch every thought that we allow in us to be sure it is clean. Circumcision was to be a stamp of belonging to the Lord. We are to circumcise our hearts. The sacrifices of the sacrificial system were a very involved, complicated system that gives a picture of what the Lord sees as sin. We are to know what is sinful.

The Lord asks that we understand all of this, we need to study so we use the Holy Spirit properly as our guide.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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#2
John 5:39, “You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me.”

I know the Passover and trumpets are about Jesus and since Jesus is now high priest I think a lot can be learned from the temple service.

Revelation 11:15-18, " 15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” Rev 12:10, Psa 2:8, Psa 22:28, Dan 2:44, Dan 7:13-14, Oba 1:15-21, Hag 2:22, Zec 14:9 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying, “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. 18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
1,613
824
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#3
By the way, here's a good set of sermons regarding seeing Christ in the Old Testament by an evangelical pastor:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....m=Christ+in+the+Old+Testament&AudioOnly=false

It covers many of the sacrifices of the OT.

So, I am not sure where this accusation is, concerning evangelicals not reading the OT and understanding it. It might be applicable to Andy Stanley or hyperdispensationalists, but there are definitely solid teachers who seek to display Jesus in the OT shadows and types.

Judaizers hardly have a market on this understanding, and in fact, their claims are often mixed with propaganda from extrabiblical sources like the Talmud.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,426
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#4
Paul also told us that the rituals that God gave people of the OT to follow were like the schoolmasters who guided the children to school, they guided and protected.
Paul was referring to the Ten Commandments, not the rituals of the Old Covenant.

How do the Ten Commandments drive sinners to the Savior? By exposing the guilt of every human being. And thus sinners turn to God for mercy and grace, and forgiveness of sins.

ROMANS 2
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,720
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#5
when Paul is referring to "the law" i think he means all of it.
as in, "
the law" was our schoolmaster/guardian/tutor, Galatians 3:24
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#6
when Paul is referring to "the law" i think he means all of it.
as in, "
the law" was our schoolmaster/guardian/tutor, Galatians 3:24
We are told all scripture is for us to study and leads to wisdom. Do you believe this applies to the rituals?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,720
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#7
We are told all scripture is for us to study and leads to wisdom. Do you believe this applies to the rituals?
yes, to all of it. they are pictures of Christ, too.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,045
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#8
Paul told us that if we use the rituals to guide us to righteous living we make Christ of no use to us.
No, he didn't. He said, "I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all." He said nothing at all about rituals guiding us to righteous living.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
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#9
No, he didn't. He said, "I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all." He said nothing at all about rituals guiding us to righteous living.
Why did Paul them have Timothy circumcised?

Acts 16:1-3, “1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.”

Did Paul doom Timothy to please men?

Luke 16:15, "So he told them, “You try to justify yourselves in front of people, but God knows your hearts, because what is highly valued by people is detestable to God."

1 Corinthians 10:33, “just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.”
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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#10
We should study the whole Bible old and new as one leads to the other. One shows what is to come and the other shows the plan being carried out with the hope of our future and life on a new earth with God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,426
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#11
Did Paul doom Timothy to please men?
Paul was following this principle of grace and Gospel outreach:

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law (1 Cor 9:20)

Timothy was already half a Jew. So there was really no issue for him be seen as a Jew.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
312
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#12
Paul was following this principle of grace and Gospel outreach:

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law (1 Cor 9:20)

Timothy was already half a Jew. So there was really no issue for him be seen as a Jew.
But Paul said "I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all." Then had TImothy circumcised.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#13
Isaiah 1:11-17 (NKJV)
11 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?


13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.


14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.


15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,426
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#14
But Paul said "I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all." Then had TImothy circumcised.
If you keep everything in its context there will be no conflict. The Galatians were being told that circumcision was necessary for salvation, and this is Paul's rebuttal.

Timothy can not circumcised after that, but before that was said.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,045
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#15
Paul did not circumcise Timothy in order to make Timothy acceptable to God. That is the distinction. Rather, Paul circumcised Timothy in order to make him acceptable as a minister to Jews.

The context of Galatians is adequate to explain this, but people keep insisting that single out-of-context verses are whole truths in themselves. Those who think that by following (obeying) the old covenant (of which circumcision is a representative act), they make themselves acceptable to God, are those for whom Christ is of no value. The timing of Timothy's circumcision is utterly irrelevant.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
794
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#16
Galatians 2:4-14, " 4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

Revelation 21:10-14, " 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#17
No, he didn't. He said, "I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all." He said nothing at all about rituals guiding us to righteous living.
As you seem to feel you are the biblical authority, would you explain judaism and if fleshly circumcision is or is not a ritual.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,045
5,471
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#18
As you seem to feel you are the biblical authority, would you explain judaism and if fleshly circumcision is or is not a ritual.
I don't feel I am the biblical authority. You are just as capable as me of quoting the Bible accurately, and representing it appropriately.

Fleshly circumcision is a commandment under the the Law, given to Abram and reiterated to Moses. It is only secondarily a ritual, and when practiced as a ritual rather than as adherence to God's commandment, it is simply barbaric.

It is not a commandment for Christians... period.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,726
501
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#19
I don't feel I am the biblical authority. You are just as capable as me of quoting the Bible accurately, and representing it appropriately.

Fleshly circumcision is a commandment under the the Law, given to Abram and reiterated to Moses. It is only secondarily a ritual, and when practiced as a ritual rather than as adherence to God's commandment, it is simply barbaric.

It is not a commandment for Christians... period.
when you decide it is not a commandment to be considered by Christians, or those who believe that Christ lived as a man and was crucified, how much of the scripture of the OT do you think applies to Christians? I is my belief that Christ is God, and that means Christ is learned about through all scripture including the OT. My conclusion from that is that we need to know what God (and Christ) had in mind when people were guided to fleshly circumcision and we need to know why, when, and how that changed.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,045
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#20
when you decide it is not a commandment to be considered by Christians, or those who believe that Christ lived as a man and was crucified, how much of the scripture of the OT do you think applies to Christians? I is my belief that Christ is God, and that means Christ is learned about through all scripture including the OT. My conclusion from that is that we need to know what God (and Christ) had in mind when people were guided to fleshly circumcision and we need to know why, when, and how that changed.
I didn't "decide it is not a commandment to be considered by Christians"; I read the Scripture where Paul explains that our relationship with God is based on the finished work of Christ rather than our adherence to the old covenant commandments.

I've addressed this before, but you haven't understood it: Don't paraphrase Scripture, and don't paraphrase my words. You have a nasty habit of getting both wrong when you do.