Showing your faith by your works

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Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
17,225
5,805
113
#1
I often see people post on here insisting that faith doesnt have anything to do with works.
Then it makes me wonder just what do they do with their faith. Do they just go to church on sunday, and all during the rest of the week make money for themselves, and spend it on holidays or another new car or something?

james writes in his letter 2:14-18

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say to him, depart in peace, and be warm and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so, faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea a man may say thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith without thy works, and and I will show thee my faith by my works.

So all those who insist thats on 'faith alone', is James, the brother of Jesus wrong? What works have you got to show your faith?

How many of you have brothers and sisters, homeless, naked, and starving and you turn a blind eye. What do you do with your extra clothing or do you hoard it all in an overflowing wardrobe. Do you buy heaps of food, cant eat it all and then dump it to landfill? Do you have household with spare bedrooms, yet they all taken up so that nobody else can stay in them. What does that profit you? What work do you do in your neighbourhood, or is it so wealthy that nobody else needs anything because they too busy admiring their reflections in their shiny new SUVs or motorhomes in their six car garages?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#2
I often see people post on here insisting that faith doesnt have anything to do with works.
Then it makes me wonder just what do they do with their faith. Do they just go to church on sunday, and all during the rest of the week make money for themselves, and spend it on holidays or another new car or something?

james writes in his letter 2:14-18

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say to him, depart in peace, and be warm and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so, faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea a man may say thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith without thy works, and and I will show thee my faith by my works.

So all those who insist thats on 'faith alone', is James, the brother of Jesus wrong? What works have you got to show your faith?

How many of you have brothers and sisters, homeless, naked, and starving and you turn a blind eye. What do you do with your extra clothing or do you hoard it all in an overflowing wardrobe. Do you buy heaps of food, cant eat it all and then dump it to landfill? Do you have household with spare bedrooms, yet they all taken up so that nobody else can stay in them. What does that profit you? What work do you do in your neighbourhood, or is it so wealthy that nobody else needs anything because they too busy admiring their reflections in their shiny new SUVs or motorhomes in their six car garages?
I think the reality comes down to who we are in Christ.
If our hearts, the centre of who we are, is changed, then works, ie actions that show Christs love and words
that confess it will flow like rain is wet, or a hot spring is hot.

Excuses. It strikes me those who grow up in a church and regard faith as something they express from their
selves, which is based on facts, and that after trying hard they are this sinner bound in sin who will never change,
faith must be just that, an assent to Jesus, but not something we become.

All I have met who hold faith alone and mock its outworking, say their hearts are desperately wicked and dare not
touch their history or feelings or past. Sin forgiven is a one off event in general and being specific about sin is
just avoided. Going a bit deeper, forgiving everybody is not needed and loving everyone is an added extra.
Following Jesus's words are just for the Jews as a way of showing them they needed Jesus.

The latest one I read is being Holy is just being set apart, not being pure and doing good, avoiding wickedness and
evil or things that contaminate us.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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#3
I often see people post on here insisting that faith doesnt have anything to do with works.
Then it makes me wonder just what do they do with their faith. Do they just go to church on sunday, and all during the rest of the week make money for themselves, and spend it on holidays or another new car or something?
Let me give you a scenario. Suppose you wake up one morning and everything went wrong for you
  1. You quarreled with your wife.
  2. You kicked the dog
  3. Your kids scream at you and say correctly that you are a bad Father.
  4. On the way to work, someone cuts into your lane while driving and you let us a cuss word out of anger.
  5. And so on and so forth.
The moment you reach the workplace, you feel very bad about all these "bad things" that you have done.

Suddenly, your colleague ask you to pray for him, because he knows you are a Christian, he is sick and he wants you to pray that he will recover. Would you be
  1. Most eager to pray for him, being confident that God will use you mightily to heal him?
  2. Feeling awkward and tell him, "sorry today is not a good day"?
If you lean more towards the second one, you believe that works, or the lack of it, has something to do with your faith. :)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,928
2,861
113
#4
I often see people post on here insisting that faith doesnt have anything to do with works.
Then it makes me wonder just what do they do with their faith. Do they just go to church on sunday, and all during the rest of the week make money for themselves, and spend it on holidays or another new car or something?

james writes in his letter 2:14-18

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say to him, depart in peace, and be warm and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so, faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea a man may say thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith without thy works, and and I will show thee my faith by my works.

So all those who insist thats on 'faith alone', is James, the brother of Jesus wrong? What works have you got to show your faith?

How many of you have brothers and sisters, homeless, naked, and starving and you turn a blind eye. What do you do with your extra clothing or do you hoard it all in an overflowing wardrobe. Do you buy heaps of food, cant eat it all and then dump it to landfill? Do you have household with spare bedrooms, yet they all taken up so that nobody else can stay in them. What does that profit you? What work do you do in your neighbourhood, or is it so wealthy that nobody else needs anything because they too busy admiring their reflections in their shiny new SUVs or motorhomes in their six car garages?
And thank the Lord we aren’t justified by our little faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ! His work on the cross is enough!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,641
11,263
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#5
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

So an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works - James 2:14) is not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9). We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
11,123
7,237
113
#6
Aaahhh! Dear Lord. Why can't people understand that OUR works have NOTHING to do with the work your Son did in Saving us from the penalty of our sin? And that to believe they do is actually a HUGE insult to Jesus and the Spirit of Grace?

James is telling those that call themselves brethren to examine THEMSELVES whether they actually HAVE been born again.

Some had a dead confession of faith. We all know these people in our lives. They SAY they are Christian, they claim the Name of Christ, but their very actions or non actions tell the real truth.

James is NOT saying doing works is part of how we are saved. He is saying they ACCOMPANY Salvation.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#7
Let me give you a scenario. Suppose you wake up one morning and everything went wrong for you
  1. You quarreled with your wife.
  2. You kicked the dog
  3. Your kids scream at you and say correctly that you are a bad Father.
  4. On the way to work, someone cuts into your lane while driving and you let us a cuss word out of anger.
  5. And so on and so forth.
The moment you reach the workplace, you feel very bad about all these "bad things" that you have done.

Suddenly, your colleague ask you to pray for him, because he knows you are a Christian, he is sick and he wants you to pray that he will recover. Would you be
  1. Most eager to pray for him, being confident that God will use you mightily to heal him?
  2. Feeling awkward and tell him, "sorry today is not a good day"?
If you lean more towards the second one, you believe that works, or the lack of it, has something to do with your faith. :)
This is an interesting request. This is a request for miraculous healing, not for getting right with God or
knowing Him. It is not about acknowledging we need to have our sins forgiven and His healing is a gift
of grace demonstrating this very reality.

Our communion with God is based on our walk with Him.
When the above situation occurs I get right with God, and walk in faith.
And I have never had someone asking for healing, because this implies faith in Christ and His power.

And above all the healing of the heart matters. But I doubt those who want physical healing desire
the purity and righteousness of the heart or even believe this is possible.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#8
Aaahhh! Dear Lord. Why can't people understand that OUR works have NOTHING to do with the work your Son did in Saving us from the penalty of our sin? And that to believe they do is actually a HUGE insult to Jesus and the Spirit of Grace?

James is telling those that call themselves brethren to examine THEMSELVES whether they actually HAVE been born again.

Some had a dead confession of faith. We all know these people in our lives. They SAY they are Christian, they claim the Name of Christ, but their very actions or non actions tell the real truth.

James is NOT saying doing works is part of how we are saved. He is saying they ACCOMPANY Salvation.
None of this is true. Works are as much a part of Gods work in our hearts as is His presence.

How could God be present in us, and we not want to show it? It is like saying you have the
greatest gift in the universe but want to keep it to yourself and not shout for joy.

How many parents who just have had a child, keep quiet about it? None unless they want to
hide some sin involved or shame.

The glory of God is His life always brings fruit, because it is the mere presence of God that
brings His fruit.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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#9
This is an interesting request. This is a request for miraculous healing, not for getting right with God or
knowing Him. It is not about acknowledging we need to have our sins forgiven and His healing is a gift
of grace demonstrating this very reality.

Our communion with God is based on our walk with Him.
When the above situation occurs I get right with God, and walk in faith.
And I have never had someone asking for healing, because this implies faith in Christ and His power.

And above all the healing of the heart matters. But I doubt those who want physical healing desire
the purity and righteousness of the heart or even believe this is possible.
Healing is just an example I picked. If you don't believe in divine healing, you can replace that with something that you do believe in praying for others. :)

But for your point in bold, that is probably the main difference between both sides, those who believe that we are saved apart from works, and those who believe that works need to follow after salvation.

For the former, we believe we are always right with God, regardless of our works. Because God sees us in the Spirit, and all he can see is our robe of righteousness that Jesus gave us. Isaiah 61:10
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,442
690
113
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#10
Man this is such a touchy issue for so many, and rightly so really, I mean we are dealing with the truth of all reality here right? I know I have found myself neck deep in this debate (works salvation vs. easy believeism) and have been told strait up that I am preaching works salvation because I say that "AS A RESULT OF" salvation, as in after we are save by grace through faith in Jesus, that being born again WILL product works. I honestly struggle to see how anyone who has been truly reborn of the Spirit can possible misunderstand or disagree this truth clearly written and described in the whole NT.

The message those I have had this debate with most recently seems to be "we still sin", "we will always sin", "Christian's still sin", "do you still sin". They come with this weak message that keeps the false convert in the dark thinking he is a Christian when he does not know Jesus, and has no idea what a Christian truly is. I say this firsthand, but they never give an inch or even try hear me when I say that I don't even think they are wrong in anything they're saying, technically, but it's the way they preach that makes this powerless message that you can be a Christian and never do anything for God. Why? I don't know at all, but to suggest one could meet his very Creator, could have his spirit brought to life and have it reconciled to His Spirit, forever changing the way you see and approach EVERYTHING in life, and not change. I strongly disagree. This "change" is what we call "works", and what I will forever proclaim WILL happen to ALL truly in Christ.

To be honest the way I see it is that one side see's salvation more as the "objective", the goal or "finish line", and the other see it for what it is, the very beginning of you being blessed with the ability to fulfill the very purpose for which you were created. If the God I serve draws you to Himself and by His grace and through Jesus blood gives you a brand new life, you will get very busy working for your Father in true peace and true joy, praising His name, and proclaiming His power to "save a wretch like me" to everyone that will listen, or can hear.8^)
In my opinion you will not be proclaiming mans power to resist God and do nothing for Him. It blows my mind ANY follower of Jesus would want to speak of Him in this way. I truly think it can only be because they have not yet truly seen the power of Jesus in their own lives, or maybe that's just the only way they've heard it preached, but this is just my opinion on the matter and the way I see it.

I agree with you and James though, we will work when we are saved because we now desire to, that's the whole point, be reborn into the kingdom to build the kingdom.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
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#11
Healing is just an example I picked. If you don't believe in divine healing, you can replace that with something that you do believe in praying for others. :)

But for your point in bold, that is probably the main difference between both sides, those who believe that we are saved apart from works, and those who believe that works need to follow after salvation.

For the former, we believe we are always right with God, regardless of our works. Because God sees us in the Spirit, and all he can see is our robe of righteousness that Jesus gave us. Isaiah 61:10
I agree with your theological difference.
The idea of always being right with God, though steeped in sin will always cause me a problem
because there are literally no examples of this in scripture. It is always people walking in righteousness,
or sinners coming to reconciliation with Him.

Jesus's instruction to us is to put into effect His commands.
He describes the principles of His way is the way to life.

The idea believers who know Jesus and are born again would be happy to stay as they are, compromised
and willingly sinning daily, hourly and just putting up with it like it is to be expected is the opposite
of His ways and the apostles teaching.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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#12
I agree with your theological difference.
The idea of always being right with God, though steeped in sin will always cause me a problem
because there are literally no examples of this in scripture. It is always people walking in righteousness,
or sinners coming to reconciliation with Him.

Jesus's instruction to us is to put into effect His commands.
He describes the principles of His way is the way to life.

The idea believers who know Jesus and are born again would be happy to stay as they are, compromised
and willingly sinning daily, hourly and just putting up with it like it is to be expected is the opposite
of His ways and the apostles teaching.
I really like what Isa said

(KJV) Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels

In some other translations, the term used is wrapped, indicating that we are completely covered. This means we are not only saved from the penalty of our sins, we are completely righteous. To understand the degree of this “completely righteous”, take a look at three testimonies of Jesus righteousness from Peter, John, and Paul

1) Peter, a man of action, said in 1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
2) John, a man of love, said in 1 John 3:5, You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
3) Paul, a man of intellect, said in 2 Cor 5:21, For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Even when Satan look at you, all he sees is that you are completely wrapped around with Jesus’s righteousness.

He will try to bluff you and put doubts in your head by making you look at yourself. But your sins are all in the flesh, you must always remember that you are a spirit. And in your spirit, you are completely righteous. That is your true identity.

Now, if you truly renew your mind to that truth, do you think you, or anyone else, will go ahead and say, "Whopee I can now sin all I want"? :)
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
5,371
1,495
113
#13
We are not put on this Earth for ourselves but for others. The same as Jesus had not come for himself but for the one who sent him.
Our faith should have a outward appearance the same as love shows the face of God.
Our faith should be a outward action of our inward beliefs of who Jesus was and is.
This separates us from the rest of the world.
Our faith does not save us not does it give us salvation in anyway. That saints is the work of Christ alone. A gift from God.
Our faith is judged and rewarded but all that we say and do points back to Christ who has saved us from ourselves. He alone is worthy of all praise as we cast our crowns at his feet.
Faith without works is dead for how can one believe and not do as commanded? How can one say yes Lord then go their own way?
How can one who is called to be light and salt hide in the darkness and let spoil that which is good?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,641
11,263
113
56
#14
Aaahhh! Dear Lord. Why can't people understand that OUR works have NOTHING to do with the work your Son did in Saving us from the penalty of our sin? And that to believe they do is actually a HUGE insult to Jesus and the Spirit of Grace?

James is telling those that call themselves brethren to examine THEMSELVES whether they actually HAVE been born again.

Some had a dead confession of faith. We all know these people in our lives. They SAY they are Christian, they claim the Name of Christ, but their very actions or non actions tell the real truth.

James is NOT saying doing works is part of how we are saved. He is saying they ACCOMPANY Salvation.
Empty profession of faith/dead faith indeed. (James 2:14-20) Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. (All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23). No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. Simple!
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
#15
I really like what Isa said

(KJV) Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels

In some other translations, the term used is wrapped, indicating that we are completely covered. This means we are not only saved from the penalty of our sins, we are completely righteous. To understand the degree of this “completely righteous”, take a look at three testimonies of Jesus righteousness from Peter, John, and Paul

1) Peter, a man of action, said in 1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
2) John, a man of love, said in 1 John 3:5, You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
3) Paul, a man of intellect, said in 2 Cor 5:21, For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Even when Satan look at you, all he sees is that you are completely wrapped around with Jesus’s righteousness.

He will try to bluff you and put doubts in your head by making you look at yourself. But your sins are all in the flesh, you must always remember that you are a spirit. And in your spirit, you are completely righteous. That is your true identity.

Now, if you truly renew your mind to that truth, do you think you, or anyone else, will go ahead and say, "Whopee I can now sin all I want"? :)
I agree with the construction you have made. We are covered by Christ, in dwelt by His word and Spirit,
transformed through the cross and cleansed in our hearts and consciences.

But then I have met people who claim the view you are expressing and call me evil, for expressing our
walk in love and righteousness. I talk of having an open heart, of feeling remorse and sadness for sin,
of getting right with God before the cross, walking humbly and knowing His fellowship, yet I am called
deceived leading people to hell.

I am told that believers will obey Jesus because they have been forgiven, and then that Gods demands are
impossible and a burden they cannot carry. That the sermon on the mount is to just show failure and not
give hope for real victory.

There is a lot of double talk and lying about what people really are and their failures.
Satans accusations are true, in your description, but Jesus ignores them because they are the flesh so not
truly you.

That is not the gospel or reality. That is gnosticism and splitting the soul into two.
Once you start down this road, you may as well throw the bible away, which I showed a picture of, and
people agreed that is what they were doing. Very odd, because God does not declare things to be thrown
away.

leftout.jpg
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
17,225
5,805
113
#16
If the salt loses its savour, what is it good for. Nothing!
It ought to be chucked away.

The poster who said 'you quarrel with your wife' how is that possible, if you are transformed by Jesus and commanded to love and cherish your wife, why would you dare to be quarrelling with her?! If you have the mind of Christ, what could you possibly be quarrelling about. Who loves who more perhaps?

Interesting that some people havent really known the power of Jesus to save us from our sins. Not just one time, but continually as we apply His blood and walk in His ways.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,442
690
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#17
If the salt loses its savour, what is it good for. Nothing!
It ought to be chucked away.

The poster who said 'you quarrel with your wife' how is that possible, if you are transformed by Jesus and commanded to love and cherish your wife, why would you dare to be quarrelling with her?! If you have the mind of Christ, what could you possibly be quarrelling about. Who loves who more perhaps?

Interesting that some people havent really known the power of Jesus to save us from our sins. Not just one time, but continually as we apply His blood and walk in His ways.
Amen to this brother, He completely remakes us, it is AMAZING, and I will proclaim this power. Praise Jesus name.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#18
The op is not honest....no one states that....the contention has always been does salvation require a blend of faith plus works....NO....SALVATION IS BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS...

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

WE HAVE ALL SAID A BELIEVER WILL BEAR FRUIT OR HAVE AT LEAST ONE WORK....

How about some honesty....LOOK thatbword up and do a post on it!!
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
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#19
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#20
The poster who said 'you quarrel with your wife' how is that possible, if you are transformed by Jesus and commanded to love and cherish your wife, why would you dare to be quarrelling with her?! If you have the mind of Christ, what could you possibly be quarrelling about. Who loves who more perhaps?

Interesting that some people havent really known the power of Jesus to save us from our sins. Not just one time, but continually as we apply His blood and walk in His ways.
The point is not the specific work of the flesh I used. Do you judge your standing with God, by your current state? It can be smoking, drinking, watching pornography, unbelief, fear, whatever.

If you feel further away from God whenever those works of the flesh happen, but feel closer to God when things are going well, then you need to repent from dead works.