Showing your faith by your works

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Jan 12, 2019
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#21
I talk of having an open heart, of feeling remorse and sadness for sin,
of getting right with God before the cross,
walking humbly and knowing His fellowship, yet I am called
deceived leading people to hell.
The book of Hebrews talks about
  1. Repenting from dead works
  2. Having no more consciousness of sins
Those friends of yours were probably overzealous in their criticism but perhaps I can understand where they are coming from. The point is, don't judge your standing with God by your current state.

The way out of sin is not to feel remorse or sadness or guilt, but to always remind yourself that you have received the abundance of grace, and the gift of righteousness. (Romans 5:17). It is Christ obedience, and not yours, that lead to life.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#22
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9
Ironically that part that you bold illustrated my point. The key to have all those fruit that you listed, is to constantly remind yourself that Jesus has cleansed you from your past sins.

If you don't believe right, you will not live right.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,551
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#23
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9
By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected. bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). Make sure that you are saved. To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).

For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (vs. 8). For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins (vs. 9). What is the object of the forgetting? Is this forgetting temporary because this believer had fallen into error or does this lack of fruit exist because this person’s "cleansing" was merely an external reformation that did not come from a truly changed heart? The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. Verse 10 - Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
1,881
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#24
I can say that I personally have felt EXTREME condemnation about not having "done enough" in regards to what was, is, and will be done for me.

So, I will posit...what is a work?


How can we judge the spirit in which this work was done? By its fruits ONLY? If so, is it logical to assume that we all have different growth times? That the soil of the heart, so to speak, is of utmost importance?
 

TM19782017

Active member
Dec 15, 2018
251
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#25
My opinion on this topic is not connecting works = money.

If you only desire to help someone because of what money or human gratitude seems due to you, your works are being done for selfish reasons. Meaning you are only doing them for a return. Conditional love.

However, if you have the desire to help someone ANONYMOUSLY, without expecting anything, God sees everything and remember who is keeping the score. Helping another unselfishly has the ability to see a reward much greater. Although not dwelling on how or when favor may come your way is where faith begins.
Not easy but something I see as a cornerstone of peace.
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
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#26
Woah...Woah....Woah !!!!
Hang on a minute I'm not done reading the last 100,000 pages.....LOL.....😀
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,006
153
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#27
I often see people post on here insisting that faith doesnt have anything to do with works.
Then it makes me wonder just what do they do with their faith. Do they just go to church on sunday, and all during the rest of the week make money for themselves, and spend it on holidays or another new car or something?

james writes in his letter 2:14-18

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say to him, depart in peace, and be warm and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so, faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea a man may say thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith without thy works, and and I will show thee my faith by my works.

So all those who insist thats on 'faith alone', is James, the brother of Jesus wrong? What works have you got to show your faith?

How many of you have brothers and sisters, homeless, naked, and starving and you turn a blind eye. What do you do with your extra clothing or do you hoard it all in an overflowing wardrobe. Do you buy heaps of food, cant eat it all and then dump it to landfill? Do you have household with spare bedrooms, yet they all taken up so that nobody else can stay in them. What does that profit you? What work do you do in your neighbourhood, or is it so wealthy that nobody else needs anything because they too busy admiring their reflections in their shiny new SUVs or motorhomes in their six car garages?
How many times do I have to correct everyone concerning James' works verses Paul's?
I believe everyone agrees, we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works of the law.
Neither are we made righteous by the same works of the law.
Giving to the poor or needy, is a work of the moral law. It does NOT make us righteous in God's eyes, nor does it make our faith perfect.
You completely missed what James was talking about. Like, totally.
Giving or doing good deeds adds nothing to your faith.
I know a wicked person that would put most of you to shame with what appears to be good deeds. He not only is an unbeliever, but a wolf in sheep's clothing. Yet he gives to and helps the poor... a lot.
If what you are saying is true, then you are equating good deeds, such as giving to the poor, to acquiring righteousness through your good moral deeds.
Think about what you are saying.
The very thing many of you condemn me for teaching, you are advocating yourselves, if you believe what the OP wrote. Only I don't teach salvation through works of the law or that you can keep it by doing the same.
What James is talking about is WORKS OF FAITH, NOT WORKS OF THE LAW, which is what giving to the poor is.
Giving to the poor is NOT a work of faith.
A work that perfects your faith is simply acting on what you believe in your heart, such as speaking (the work or act) what you believe. It is a corresponding action to what you believe.
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken, we also believe, and therefore speak. Speaking verbally what you believe in your heart. That is one form of faith in action.
Again, speaking or verbally proclaiming what you believe, IS ONE FORM of a work of faith that James was talking about.
James was using, giving to the poor, as an example of faith being useless and dead, without an act that corresponds with your faith or what you believe.
In other words, it is fruitless to tell someone to be warm and filled in faith, and not give them clothing and food.
If you tell someone to be filled, in faith, without giving them anything to keep warm, then your words of faith were useless and without affect.
But if you act on those words of faith by giving them clothing to keep warm, then your faith was perfected.
What if you said, "be healed", and gave them clothing to keep them warm? Would that be a corresponding work of your words of faith?
Absolutely not. Clothing has nothing to do with one getting their healing. So it won't have any affect on their healing.
Your actions must AGREE WITH your faith. Otherwise, it is useless and dead.
So James is NOT talking about giving to the poor, but about acting on and in accordance to what you believe.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
16,583
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#28
The point is not the specific work of the flesh I used. Do you judge your standing with God, by your current state? It can be smoking, drinking, watching pornography, unbelief, fear, whatever.

If you feel further away from God whenever those works of the flesh happen, but feel closer to God when things are going well, then you need to repent from dead works.
The works James was talking about in his letter are not works of the flesh! They are good works for example, clothing someone whos naked, feeding someone whos hungry. Do you not even understand the good works God has called us to do? Do you just walk past someone whos naked and cold, or theres your brother and he hasnt had a bite to eat since however long, would you not even offer him anything to eat?

If God does it for His people in the wilderness, what would He want you to do? Its not rocket science!
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#29
How many times do I have to correct everyone concerning James' works verses Paul's?
I believe everyone agrees, we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works of the law.
Neither are we made righteous by the same works of the law.
Giving to the poor or needy, is a work of the moral law. It does NOT make us righteous in God's eyes, nor does it make our faith perfect.
You completely missed what James was talking about. Like, totally.
Giving or doing good deeds adds nothing to your faith.
I know a wicked person that would put most of you to shame with what appears to be good deeds. He not only is an unbeliever, but a wolf in sheep's clothing. Yet he gives to and helps the poor... a lot.
If what you are saying is true, then you are equating good deeds, such as giving to the poor, to acquiring righteousness through your good moral deeds.
Think about what you are saying.
The very thing many of you condemn me for teaching, you are advocating yourselves, if you believe what the OP wrote. Only I don't teach salvation through works of the law or that you can keep it by doing the same.
What James is talking about is WORKS OF FAITH, NOT WORKS OF THE LAW, which is what giving to the poor is.
Giving to the poor is NOT a work of faith.
A work that perfects your faith is simply acting on what you believe in your heart, such as speaking (the work or act) what you believe. It is a corresponding action to what you believe.
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken, we also believe, and therefore speak. Speaking verbally what you believe in your heart. That is one form of faith in action.
Again, speaking or verbally proclaiming what you believe, IS ONE FORM of a work of faith that James was talking about.
James was using, giving to the poor, as an example of faith being useless and dead, without an act that corresponds with your faith or what you believe.
In other words, it is fruitless to tell someone to be warm and filled in faith, and not give them clothing and food.
If you tell someone to be filled, in faith, without giving them anything to keep warm, then your words of faith were useless and without affect.
But if you act on those words of faith by giving them clothing to keep warm, then your faith was perfected.
What if you said, "be healed", and gave them clothing to keep them warm? Would that be a corresponding work of your words of faith?
Absolutely not. Clothing has nothing to do with one getting their healing. So it won't have any affect on their healing.
Your actions must AGREE WITH your faith. Otherwise, it is useless and dead.
So James is NOT talking about giving to the poor, but about acting on and in accordance to what you believe.
No think about what the Bible is saying, Im just agreeing with it stop trying to make out like im saying anything oposite to what you saying. Did i ever say what you are trying to twist my post into saying? NOPE!

YOU have faith and you act on it, otherwise your faith is DEAD. I am not saying you do works without any faith. If you can read what Jamees wrote and interpet it the right way, then stop accusing others of interpeting it the opposite, because I have not. I have never said giving to the poor is what James was talking about but he actually used it as a real example!

And if you are so selfish as to think theres no merit in that example, then it just goes to show your attitude towards others is rather off. Have you ever been poor hungry, naked? Jesus says those who say they arent in need of anything..are actually those who are blind, poor and naked. The laoedicans.

Hes going to spit those lukewarm out of his mouth. Yep, its disgusting.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#30
Amen to this brother, He completely remakes us, it is AMAZING, and I will proclaim this power. Praise Jesus name.
Praise Jesus.
It does seem to me few people can accept what James his brother was saying though. Sad!
How hard it is for a rich man to enter heaven.

They confess with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.

I hear those whos hearts are hardened, call those whos hearts are soft, 'bleeding heart liberals' as if its a bad thing. Well better to have bleeding heart than die of a heart attack like King Herod or Nabal cos of their utter stinginess and faithlessness.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#31
The works James was talking about in his letter are not works of the flesh! They are good works for example, clothing someone whos naked, feeding someone whos hungry. Do you not even understand the good works God has called us to do? Do you just walk past someone whos naked and cold, or theres your brother and he hasnt had a bite to eat since however long, would you not even offer him anything to eat?

If God does it for His people in the wilderness, what would He want you to do? Its not rocket science!
You keep addressing the wrong points.

The point you should address is that its your faith in God, apart from works (good or bad), that declares you righteous and saved.

The word apart means your faith alone, without works. Works are not part of faith, under the current age of Grace.

If you read Acts 21, it is very likely that James, in his life on earth, never did understood Paul's gospel completely. But its okay since after Acts 15, it is understood that Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, while Peter James and John are apostles to the Jews.

So the Gentile church should not be using the book of James as their doctrine.
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
538
193
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MO,OK,AR
#32
I can say that I personally have felt EXTREME condemnation about not having "done enough" in regards to what was, is, and will be done for me.

So, I will posit...what is a work?


How can we judge the spirit in which this work was done? By its fruits ONLY? If so, is it logical to assume that we all have different growth times? That the soil of the heart, so to speak, is of utmost importance?



You can kick yourself all you like if that's what you're into and it's great if other people benefit from it......but....
Just don't go to overboard with it....cause he said Love others as you do yourself.....and that has the implication to love yourself in it.......if you're a masochist and kicking yourself to hard then you aren't being obedient either......it's ok bro.....God loves you more than maybe you love yourself.....
.......No matter how much you do.....you....will NEVER.....be able to outgive Jesus or God!
You can even Martyr yourself and you still wouldn't equal them.....Just not possible to equal or outgive God.....
.......Never happen they gave and give life to the world so be sure to Love the life he gave you in gratitude and love yourself in reverance of him also......You don't need to be in condemnation of yourself.....😀
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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#33
Amen. Quite a promise Peter is making

"For if you do these things, you will never fall" 2 Peter 1:10

For all the cynicism I read, this is the exact opposite of such a thing.
Jesus is not asking us to do the impossible in Him, because His Spirit,
changes us, transforms us, teaches us, helps us grow in new ways so things
from our past we did not do, or could not do, we now can do.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9
By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected. bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). Make sure that you are saved. To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).

For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (vs. 8). For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins (vs. 9). What is the object of the forgetting? Is this forgetting temporary because this believer had fallen into error or does this lack of fruit exist because this person’s "cleansing" was merely an external reformation that did not come from a truly changed heart? The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. Verse 10 - Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.
 

SIMON55

Active member
Feb 15, 2019
538
193
43
MO,OK,AR
#34
Praise Jesus.
It does seem to me few people can accept what James his brother was saying though. Sad!
How hard it is for a rich man to enter heaven.

They confess with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.

I hear those whos hearts are hardened, call those whos hearts are soft, 'bleeding heart liberals' as if its a bad thing. Well better to have bleeding heart than die of a heart attack like King Herod or Nabal cos of their utter stinginess and faithlessness.
Life is about balance....you are comparing two extremes....
.......You can't just hand over everything to everyone just cause they ask for it.....
.....And you should never be hardened to the point you won't help others or fear that if you do God won't replace what he provided you with in the first place.....
......If a man asks you for a 🐟 fish and you give it to him what have you done.....do you do it for him day after day after day......?
......Teach the man to 🐟 fish and you feed him for his lifetime !!!!!
......BALANCE.....IS Teaching him to fish.....and maybe feeding him till he learns.
........A bleeding liberal knows not the man needs taught.
......and the extreme hard heart says let him learn for himself......
........You have to also balance your scripture and be realistic with it also......you can not save the whole world.....but the good lord willing you may save some.....
........If your ministry is to martyr yourself the first day out.....Satan won't sweat you in the least bit.....and you will soon be forgotten....
.......if you live to battle him another day.....he is going to remember it.....
.......Do not interpret your scripture or judge the way others do in the extreme.
.......The Camel can go through the eye of the needle.....
......The needle was the man walk gate....that had to be used when the main city gate was shut for security....
........The excess baggage or load had to be removed....
( just like a person has to do )
And the Camel had to go to its knees just like a human has to do....!!!
....look again at the parable and what Christ said the man did.......He did not go out among the hungry AT ALL!
Extreme out of balance !
The counter measure to that extreme is sell all of your stuff!!!.....
.......The man was within the law but was out of balance in his heart.....meaning he had no compassion at all.....
........Extreme one way or the other is out of balance with anything.....
........To be wealthy is not a sin but to be greedy and selfish is......The camel can not make it through with excess baggage and it must lower itself......
.......If you give all your fish away you will have none for yourself and it is extreme.
......If you didn't teach the man to fish....he can't feed himself or anyone else.....
.......Balance in all things.....
The rain falls on the wicked and righteous alike.....
.......Everything in its season and place......if the fields are too flooded you can't plant....
.......if the rains don't come the crops don't grow.....
.......People that generate business and revenue keep the economy moving....and people benefit.....being extremely liberal or selfish is just that.....extreme....
........God doesn't demand extremes from us he teaches balance.....stewardship.....he doesn't demand martyrdom.
Just willingness......
You can't buy your way into heaven with good works anymore than the loaded camel can go through the needle.....God owns everything......you can't make a debtor of him with good works!😀
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#35
How many works justify a man? How often are works needed to justify? If I slip up and have a bad day, week or year, how many works is needed to justify my salvation? Where does Paul say justification is by works?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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#36
How many works justify a man? How often are works needed to justify? If I slip up and have a bad day, week or year, how many works is needed to justify my salvation? Where does Paul say justification is by works?
thought belief

Are we saved because we believe without anything else changing?
Is this anything more than thinking Jesus is God?
Maybe these people should be called "thought Christians"

13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
Isaiah 29:13

1 Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why do all the faithless live at ease?
2 You have planted them, and they have taken root; they grow and bear fruit. You are always on their lips but far from their hearts.
3 Yet you know me, O LORD; you see me and test my thoughts about you. Drag them off like sheep to be butchered! Set them apart for the day of slaughter!
Jeremiah 12:1-3

4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
Philippians 4:4-6

21 In him our hearts rejoice, for we trust in his holy name.
22 May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD, even as we put our hope in you
Psalm 33:21-22

If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Luke 9:23
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,824
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#37
thought belief

Are we saved because we believe without anything else changing?
Is this anything more than thinking Jesus is God?
Maybe these people should be called "thought Christians"

13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
Isaiah 29:13

1 Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why do all the faithless live at ease?
2 You have planted them, and they have taken root; they grow and bear fruit. You are always on their lips but far from their hearts.
3 Yet you know me, O LORD; you see me and test my thoughts about you. Drag them off like sheep to be butchered! Set them apart for the day of slaughter!
Jeremiah 12:1-3

4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
Philippians 4:4-6

21 In him our hearts rejoice, for we trust in his holy name.
22 May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD, even as we put our hope in you
Psalm 33:21-22

If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Luke 9:23
Soooo, how many works justify a man?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
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#38
Soooo, how many works justify a man?
Here is the spiritual problem for those who have no real faith.
When you plant a seed in the ground and the first leaves come up, you do not say how many leaves
show it is alive, you say because it produces any it is alive.

So equally with works, confession of faith and good works showing love, show the seed has born life.
Works never justify anyone, they are the outworking of the inward reality.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,824
2,827
113
#39
Here is the spiritual problem for those who have no real faith.
When you plant a seed in the ground and the first leaves come up, you do not say how many leaves
show it is alive, you say because it produces any it is alive.

So equally with works, confession of faith and good works showing love, show the seed has born life.
Works never justify anyone, they are the outworking of the inward reality.
Works only come if one is properly discipled. There are many people who get saved and are not discipled, have no Bible, church, or spiritual influence at all in their life. Many of these saved people draw back into the world and live as lost people. It’s a shame, but reality. We have a responsibility to disciple.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
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#40
Works only come if one is properly discipled. There are many people who get saved and are not discipled, have no Bible, church, or spiritual influence at all in their life. Many of these saved people draw back into the world and live as lost people. It’s a shame, but reality. We have a responsibility to disciple.
Works come immediately we come to faith.
The thief on the cross exercises faith.

41 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
42 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
43 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. "
44 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Luke 23:41-44

The thief exercised repentance "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve"
Faith "this man has done nothing wrong"
Trust "Jesus, remember me"
Expectation of salvation "when you come into your kingdom"

All of this was a work of salvation, a good work.