Sinning against the holy spirit

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#41
We are saved by grace through faith, not of works but a gift from God. The Pharisees were not Spirit-filled they were not of an enlightened mind by the Spirit. Jesus knows this. That is why HE addressed this comment they made. They did not understand what they were saying because they wanted to discredit Jesus because they heard the People call him Son of David.
That generation collectively Accused Jesus of doing what he was doing by the devil .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#43
May I have your verses for this?

My scripture was surely written by an Israeli prophet, but is the repetition my Jesus Himself not enough to validate it? There is nothing unclear about Mark 9:47. It refers - not to Israel - but to the coming Millennial Kingdom.
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.
Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#44
Acts 13.39
39And by him all that believe are justified FROM ALL THINGS , from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
 
L

lenna

Guest
#45
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
that verse has nothing to do...actually less than nothing to do, with regeneration

Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit."

you must have a hat filled with scripture verses and you just reach in and pull one out when you need a 'filler'

won't bother to refute the rest. just the usual yada yada
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,222
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#46
We should all be very careful with our attitudes and responses to others on this and other forums, as our interpretations/perspectives of the Word may be wrong, while others perspectives correct and from the Holy Spirit. We are all currently deceived by Satan (Revelation 12:9), as were the Pharisees in their perspectives against the Holy Spirit in Christ.
 
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#47
A verse that Jesus died for the sin of the world ? And reconciled the world . Not imputing their trespasses against them ? 2 cor 5.19
No brother. That was not your posting. You maintaned that people go to hell because they do not believe the truth. That is what I requested scripture for. But anyway, if you go to all the judgments were people go to the Lake of Fire, or destruction, or perdition, of Gehenna (for the word "hell" is not in the original texts), you will find that it is ALWAYS because of WORKS.
 
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#49
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.
Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)

Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).

The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)

The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)
See my posting # 47. It was in answer to your posting # 29. Let's deal with that.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#50
No brother. That was not your posting. You maintaned that people go to hell because they do not believe the truth. That is what I requested scripture for. But anyway, if you go to all the judgments were people go to the Lake of Fire, or destruction, or perdition, of Gehenna (for the word "hell" is not in the original texts), you will find that it is ALWAYS because of WORKS.
So the book that has names written in or not due to works ?
Surely a scripture or three would suffice.
No brother. That was not your posting. You maintaned that people go to hell because they do not believe the truth. That is what I requested scripture for. But anyway, if you go to all the judgments were people go to the Lake of Fire, or destruction, or perdition, of Gehenna (for the word "hell" is not in the original texts), you will find that it is ALWAYS because of WORKS.
So potentially a person could by their works avoid hell ?
 

AlmondJoy

Active member
Oct 31, 2020
245
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28
#51
Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

KEEP IN MIND: after Jesus cast devils from a man the pharisees attributed what Jesus done to the devil

Now we have to as ourselves a few questions:

Is God the Holy Ghost greater than God the Father? NO!

Is God the Holy Ghost greater than Jesus/God the Son? NO!

THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT GREATER BUT HE WAS....... LATER!!!!

IMO: Jesus was looking ahead and thinking about the coming of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is God reaching as far as He will to save us. If men reject the conviction given by the Holy Ghost to repent God will do nothing else to save them.

IMO: Jesus knew they were going to crucify him and said if you treat the Holy Ghost the way your treating me, there will be no hope for you.......... so make sure you dont crucify the Holy Ghost and stay sensitive to Him
 
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#52
So the book that has names written in or not due to works ?
So potentially a person could by their works avoid hell ?
Do I take it that we agree that a man or woman does not go to the Lake of Fire because of lack of faith in the truth? Your answer is quite important, because doctrinally it sends every fetus, infant and child who died to eternal torment.

But to your questions.
  • All judgments by God, or Jesus Christ are based on WORKS. That they are written in books is not for God's memory. It is for ours.
  • A person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.
I know you won't do it, but once you should sit down with a concordance and find every instance of Gehenna, perdition, destruction, Lake of Fire and/or Second Death, and read it. You will find that in every case the man who lands there, does so because of what he DID. Then, if you do this, something else will suddenly dawn on you. That is, a Christian can be affected by the Second Death. In Revelation 2:11, our Lord is talking to the Church at Smyrna. The word "Church" in the Bible leaves no doubt who is meant. "Ekklesia", the Greek word, means; "the gathering of the called out ones". Within this word is no space for the common Christian idea it is a building, club or organization along worldly pattern. If an unbeliever is present at a "gathering of believers", the Bible does not count him as part of the Church. There are NO false believers in scripture. There are only believers and unbelievers.

So when our Lord addresses the CHURCH at Smyrna, ONLY BELIEVERS ARE MEANT. And Revelation 2:11 implies that a BELIEVER can be "hurt of the Second Death". Now, unless you are (i) precise with God's Words, and (ii) are clear why a man goes to the Second Death, you have a big problem. Those who BELIEVED, and were members of a Church, CAN STILL BE TOUCHED BY THE SECOND DEATH (which is used interchangeably with the Lake of Fire). It is no good answering that they were false believers because, as I said, that does not exist in the Bible. One is either a Believer, or an Unbeliever. It is no good saying that their BELIEF was poor or non-existent because they had endured "tribulation and poverty" for it (v.9).

So, I think you will agree that BELIEVING the truth will not save you from the effects of the Second Death. But then ... how shall we answer this that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are SAVED by FAITH? The Smyrnians BELIEVED but ran the danger of being hurt of the Second Death. How so?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#53
Do I take it that we agree that a man or woman does not go to the Lake of Fire because of lack of faith in the truth? Your answer is quite important, because doctrinally it sends every fetus, infant and child who died to eternal torment.

But to your questions.
  • All judgments by God, or Jesus Christ are based on WORKS. That they are written in books is not for God's memory. It is for ours.
  • A person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.
I know you won't do it, but once you should sit down with a concordance and find every instance of Gehenna, perdition, destruction, Lake of Fire and/or Second Death, and read it. You will find that in every case the man who lands there, does so because of what he DID. Then, if you do this, something else will suddenly dawn on you. That is, a Christian can be affected by the Second Death. In Revelation 2:11, our Lord is talking to the Church at Smyrna. The word "Church" in the Bible leaves no doubt who is meant. "Ekklesia", the Greek word, means; "the gathering of the called out ones". Within this word is no space for the common Christian idea it is a building, club or organization along worldly pattern. If an unbeliever is present at a "gathering of believers", the Bible does not count him as part of the Church. There are NO false believers in scripture. There are only believers and unbelievers.

So when our Lord addresses the CHURCH at Smyrna, ONLY BELIEVERS ARE MEANT. And Revelation 2:11 implies that a BELIEVER can be "hurt of the Second Death". Now, unless you are (i) precise with God's Words, and (ii) are clear why a man goes to the Second Death, you have a big problem. Those who BELIEVED, and were members of a Church, CAN STILL BE TOUCHED BY THE SECOND DEATH (which is used interchangeably with the Lake of Fire). It is no good answering that they were false believers because, as I said, that does not exist in the Bible. One is either a Believer, or an Unbeliever. It is no good saying that their BELIEF was poor or non-existent because they had endured "tribulation and poverty" for it (v.9).

So, I think you will agree that BELIEVING the truth will not save you from the effects of the Second Death. But then ... how shall we answer this that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are SAVED by FAITH? The Smyrnians BELIEVED but ran the danger of being hurt of the Second Death. How so?
A person cannot go into to the lake of fire glorified. All those in Christ will be glorified ,because all those in christ are predestined to glorification after they believe. How does a person recieve these blessings above ( Eph 1.3 ) ? Through faith . So by simple common sense its safe to conclude that that only barrier to glorification is Faith . If a person refuses to believe the truth so as to be saved ( His sins already dealt with and reconciliation provided at the cross 2 cor 5 .19 rom 5 .10 then he will not be glorified. What's the common denominator? Those that believed by faith and those that don't. Mark 16.16 . Wheres works ? there excluded .This is the ' clear ' . This is the absolute fundementals on how were saved..Then from this we go look at revelation and other such passages that are not to be used to interpret the clear .
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#54
Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

KEEP IN MIND: after Jesus cast devils from a man the pharisees attributed what Jesus done to the devil

Now we have to as ourselves a few questions:

Is God the Holy Ghost greater than God the Father? NO!

Is God the Holy Ghost greater than Jesus/God the Son? NO!

THE HOLY GHOST IS NOT GREATER BUT HE WAS....... LATER!!!!

IMO: Jesus was looking ahead and thinking about the coming of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is God reaching as far as He will to save us. If men reject the conviction given by the Holy Ghost to repent God will do nothing else to save them.

IMO: Jesus knew they were going to crucify him and said if you treat the Holy Ghost the way your treating me, there will be no hope for you.......... so make sure you dont crucify the Holy Ghost and stay sensitive to Him
Hi, and welcome to the Forum. I'm sure you'll profit much from the various discussions, and we'll profit from your input.

Returning to your proffered verses. Don't you think that the reason was that in one case, the survivable case, one attribute a work of "a Son of MAN" to Beelzebub, while in the damning case, you attribute the works of God to Beelzebub? It would seem from the case of Ananias and Saphira that they lied to men and survived until it was established that they had lied to the Holy Spirit. It was then that they dropped dead.

There is another similar case. In 1st Timothy 1 Paul hands a believer over to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh". Why? Because he blasphemed! Blasphemy is directed against God. But the same guy in 2nd Timothy 4 is not threatened in the same way because Alexander "did Paul much evil" and "resisted OUR words" - those of a MAN.

Likewise, there was a lot of evil being committed in the Church at Corinth. But the death sentence for a Christian is only threatened in two cases. (i) The man, being the Temple of God, sinned INSIDE this Temple (Chapter 5), and (ii) those Christians in Chapter 11 who dishonored Christ's blood after it has been honored by God (Heb.9:12).

I could be wrong but a man can escape a lot for insulting a Man (including Jesus the "Son of MAN"), but directly insulting the Divinity is a special sin.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#55
Do I take it that we agree that a man or woman does not go to the Lake of Fire because of lack of faith in the truth? Your answer is quite important, because doctrinally it sends every fetus, infant and child who died to eternal torment.

But to your questions.
  • All judgments by God, or Jesus Christ are based on WORKS. That they are written in books is not for God's memory. It is for ours.
  • A person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.
I know you won't do it, but once you should sit down with a concordance and find every instance of Gehenna, perdition, destruction, Lake of Fire and/or Second Death, and read it. You will find that in every case the man who lands there, does so because of what he DID. Then, if you do this, something else will suddenly dawn on you. That is, a Christian can be affected by the Second Death. In Revelation 2:11, our Lord is talking to the Church at Smyrna. The word "Church" in the Bible leaves no doubt who is meant. "Ekklesia", the Greek word, means; "the gathering of the called out ones". Within this word is no space for the common Christian idea it is a building, club or organization along worldly pattern. If an unbeliever is present at a "gathering of believers", the Bible does not count him as part of the Church. There are NO false believers in scripture. There are only believers and unbelievers.

So when our Lord addresses the CHURCH at Smyrna, ONLY BELIEVERS ARE MEANT. And Revelation 2:11 implies that a BELIEVER can be "hurt of the Second Death". Now, unless you are (i) precise with God's Words, and (ii) are clear why a man goes to the Second Death, you have a big problem. Those who BELIEVED, and were members of a Church, CAN STILL BE TOUCHED BY THE SECOND DEATH (which is used interchangeably with the Lake of Fire). It is no good answering that they were false believers because, as I said, that does not exist in the Bible. One is either a Believer, or an Unbeliever. It is no good saying that their BELIEF was poor or non-existent because they had endured "tribulation and poverty" for it (v.9).

So, I think you will agree that BELIEVING the truth will not save you from the effects of the Second Death. But then ... how shall we answer this that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are SAVED by FAITH? The Smyrnians BELIEVED but ran the danger of being hurt of the Second Death. How so?
///person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.///
Of course a person can avoid hell . By believing the Gospel so as to recieve Jesus. John 1.12 . 1 cor 1.21 .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#56
///person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.///
Of course a person can avoid hell . By believing the Gospel so as to recieve Jesus. John 1.12 . 1 cor 1.21 .
There's a reason why the Holy Spirit is mentioned to reprove the world of one sin . ( John 16.8,9 )The sin of not Believing in Jesus. This is the one thing a person cannot be glorified without receiving Jesus and being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption..This did not happen before the cross and this sealing won't take place after the rapture.
 
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#57
A person cannot go into to the lake of fire glorified. All those in Christ will be glorified ,because all those in christ are predestined to glorification after they believe. How does a person recieve these blessings above ( Eph 1.3 ) ? Through faith . So by simple common sense its safe to conclude that that only barrier to glorification is Faith . If a person refuses to believe the truth so as to be saved ( His sins already dealt with and reconciliation provided at the cross 2 cor 5 .19 rom 5 .10 then he will not be glorified. What's the common denominator? Those that believed by faith and those that don't. Mark 16.16 . Wheres works ? there excluded .This is the ' clear ' . This is the absolute fundementals on how were saved..Then from this we go look at revelation and other such passages that are not to be used to interpret the clear .
Brother, go to a Bible dictionary and look up the word "glorify". It comes from the root word "doxa", which means "made apparent". That is, when God is glorified it is "made apparent" Who He is. When Christ was glorified by resurrection (Jn.7:39) it was "made apparent" that He had put all sins away. Now, in 1st Corinthians 15:22 it says that, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." That ALL men who had their origin IN Adam will die, is confirmed by Romans 5:12. Then, reading further in 1st Corinthians 15, the question is posed in verse 35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Paul answers this question by say that they are raised up ACCORDING TO WHAT WAS PLANTED IN DEATH. And Paul, speaking now of ALL men, says that there are TWO TYPES - "Celestial" (from heaven) and "Terrestrial" (from the earth).

The Christian is born "from above" (Jn.3:3-5), is of the "heavenly calling", (Heb.3:1), is a citizen of heaven (Phil.3:20), and receives a heavenly body in resurrection (2nd Cor.5:1-5). And this heavenly status is "MADE APPARENT". His "glory" in resurrection is celestial! The non-believer is also resurrected, but he is from the womb, from the woman who is but dust, from human seed and is earthy. This is also "MADE APPARENT". The Terrestrial ALSO HAS HIS "GLORY"! Verses 40 gives BOTH GLORY!

40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

And among Christians, there will be differing glories because it will be MADE APPARENT in resurrection what type of life the Christian LED!

41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

But the point I want to make is that even the most evil sinner will be GLORIFIED. His wanton life will be MADE APPARENT! And why did I go to all this trouble to explain "glory"? Why, just to show you that you should be very careful when you make reverse arguments to establish a DOCTRINE. Much better if you stick to DIRECT SENTENCES and/or STATEMENTS! That's why I ask for scriptures in our discussion. Your whole argument was based on a false perception of "glory". And I once believed it too.
 
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#58
///person cannot avoid "hell" by their works. A person cannot avoid anything. It is up to the sovereign, All-mighty, All-knowing and All-seeing God whether a man or woman avoids "hell". That is what a Judge is for.///
Of course a person can avoid hell . By believing the Gospel so as to recieve Jesus. John 1.12 . 1 cor 1.21 .
"To avoid something" is a the result of a planned course of action. It is true that a man can avoid something, but in the case of Gehenna, he avoids it BECAUSE THE JUDGE DECIDED SO. So you choose.
  1. "The man avoided going to jail by turning his steering wheel before he hit the penitentiary gate."
  2. "The man avoided going to jail because the judge was merciful"
 
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#59
There's a reason why the Holy Spirit is mentioned to reprove the world of one sin . ( John 16.8,9 )The sin of not Believing in Jesus. This is the one thing a person cannot be glorified without receiving Jesus and being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption..This did not happen before the cross and this sealing won't take place after the rapture.
If you had answered my question about the babies who died, you could not have made this assumption about it being a sin not to believe in Jesus.

Your second assumption is answered in my posting # 57.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#60
"To avoid something" is a the result of a planned course of action. It is true that a man can avoid something, but in the case of Gehenna, he avoids it BECAUSE THE JUDGE DECIDED SO. So you choose.
  1. "The man avoided going to jail by turning his steering wheel before he hit the penitentiary gate."
  2. "The man avoided going to jail because the judge was merciful"
As believers we have the message of reconciliation. The information that God has told us to tell others how they can recieve Jesus through faith. That they will avoid 'the bad place 'by being in christ .