So, I'm full of anti-wof talking points, prejudice and misinformed?

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Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
165
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#41
First of all lancelot, you did not "offend" me. I am not angry nor do I have any resentment towards you. In fact, I feel sorry for you because of your "blindness" to the truth because your unable to spot "fleece" from "fur" when it comes to wof teachings. I'm talking about your lack of "discernment."

Now, I understand all the talking points you have made on behalf of hagin and how they all fall right in line as if their "scripted." I'm also a little surprised that you did not mention hagin's great book "The Midas Touch." for good measure. :rolleyes:

Now, you want to know what does offend me, the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dwbNvBq7eQ
You also said this: "There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying." In my original post I made it extremely clear about Jesus Christ going into hell and suffering there under Satan and his minions. Is this or is it not "blasphemy" of the highest order by hagin, copeland and many other wof teachers?

I find it interesting (to say the least) that 1 Peter 3:19 says, "in which also He/Jesus Christ went and made proclaimation to the spirits now in prison." That word "proclaimed" or "preached" means to publicly declare or to herald. What was Jesus "heralding" or "preaching?" The Apostle Peter says Jesus went to the Abyss and proclaimed His victory to the fallen angels imprisoned there. Read Colossians 2:15 where Jesus won and the cross triumphs over evil.

In other words, you have wof teachers teaching how Jesus went into hel and was tortured by Satan, beat up by Satan and as copeland stated "God the Father had enough and He "bellows" out "Enough" resulting in Jesus being born again in hell. The point is that you have Jesus Christ being a prisoner in hell when in fact he "Proclaimed" that the cross triumphs over hell. In short, your guys have it "butt backwards" like many other wof teachings. This is why I'm offended. Tell me honestly lancelot, do you think this "violates" any core essentials of the Christian faith? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
No, I don't think the teaching that Jesus suffered in hell violates any essential doctrines of the faith, unless you can show me a creed that says anything about the only acceptable teaching on what happened between the crucifixion and the resurrection. The Apostle's Creed says that Jesus descended into hell, and John Calvin defended that statement, so you can't really condemn Kenneth Hagin without condemning John Calvin. It's a non-essential, and it wasn't a major component of Kenneth Hagin's teaching. By the way, Kenneth Hagin's own mentor Pop Goodwin disagreed with him on this, but they remained friends in spite of that.

As for .... "There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying." ... if I'm not mistaken that was in reference to Kenneth Hagin using the word "incarnation" in reference to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, where God lives in our bodies of flesh, and that's what "incarnation" means - God in the flesh. It was an unorthodox usage of "incarnation" but it was orthodox theology because the belief that God indwells believers under the New Covenant is pretty mainstream.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#42
No, I don't think the teaching that Jesus suffered in hell violates any essential doctrines of the faith, unless you can show me a creed that says anything about the only acceptable teaching on what happened between the crucifixion and the resurrection. The Apostle's Creed says that Jesus descended into hell, and John Calvin defended that statement, so you can't really condemn Kenneth Hagin without condemning John Calvin. It's a non-essential, and it wasn't a major component of Kenneth Hagin's teaching. By the way, Kenneth Hagin's own mentor Pop Goodwin disagreed with him on this, but they remained friends in spite of that.

As for .... "There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying." ... if I'm not mistaken that was in reference to Kenneth Hagin using the word "incarnation" in reference to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, where God lives in our bodies of flesh, and that's what "incarnation" means - God in the flesh. It was an unorthodox usage of "incarnation" but it was orthodox theology because the belief that God indwells believers under the New Covenant is pretty mainstream.
The blasphemy is in saying that we are just as much an incarnation of God as Jesus was. The Jesus suffering in hell runs a foul from orthodoxy because it says Jesus became Satanic needing to then be born again.

At least you are consistent but it is in ignoring the OP and my comment. You have to because you can't defend the WOF delusion.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#43
This is what lancelot...joaniemarie...
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
If the likes of them and those of their ilk (other heretics here) are slandering you, rejoice, you're on the correct theological path! :)
 

Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
165
11
18
#44
The blasphemy is in saying that we are just as much an incarnation of God as Jesus was. The Jesus suffering in hell runs a foul from orthodoxy because it says Jesus became Satanic needing to then be born again.

At least you are consistent but it is in ignoring the OP and my comment. You have to because you can't defend the WOF delusion.
I already explained that "incarnation" reference, DB. It was a reference to the indwelling of the Spirit (orthodox theology) and nothing more. And Jesus didn't become satanic. He was separated from God the Father and later the fellowship was restored, when the Bible says "He tasted death for every man". (Heb. 2:9) That's the only sense in which He was "born again" spiritually.

I have to say this seems to be a game with you, accusing people of ignoring you if they don't have the time to read through thousands of posts. I do have a life apart from CC, and am spending too much time here as it is, but people need to get the facts on many of these issues so I decided to take the time to provide them. Theology is not a contest with a winner and a loser. It's the study of God, and we as adults ought to be able to do conduct ourselves in such as way as to make this pursuit one of mutual respect and sharing our views, not one of playground taunts and insults.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
1,537
27
48
#45
Being as our words are continuously recorded, does anyone really want to record against the word of faith?
Wof Theologie is in my Eyes false teaching and Bases on human wisdom, but not Gods wisdom revealed in the scripture.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
1,537
27
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#46
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Think.....what was Paul's hope?

And then think....what would all this mean to our whole being?
What else that we are Gods Children, have an new Creation in us, which First will revealed when the Lord is Coming and Pickup up in the Air.
Till then our body is fleshly under the Curse and is suffering like the whole Creation.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#47
I already explained that "incarnation" reference, DB. It was a reference to the indwelling of the Spirit (orthodox theology) and nothing more. And Jesus didn't become satanic. He was separated from God the Father and later the fellowship was restored, when the Bible says "He tasted death for every man". (Heb. 2:9) That's the only sense in which He was "born again" spiritually.

I have to say this seems to be a game with you, accusing people of ignoring you if they don't have the time to read through thousands of posts. I do have a life apart from CC, and am spending too much time here as it is, but people need to get the facts on many of these issues so I decided to take the time to provide them. Theology is not a contest with a winner and a loser. It's the study of God, and we as adults ought to be able to do conduct ourselves in such as way as to make this pursuit one of mutual respect and sharing our views, not one of playground taunts and insults.
But you did ignore me. You didn't address my points about your Nestorian heresy nor what the word "incarnation" means in its orthodox origination. It is blasphemy to say you are JUST AS MUCH AN INCARNATION OF GOD AS JESUS WAS.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#48
But you did ignore me. You didn't address my points about your Nestorian heresy nor what the word "incarnation" means in its orthodox origination. It is blasphemy to say you are JUST AS MUCH AN INCARNATION OF GOD AS JESUS WAS.
Then you don't understand or are purposely misrepresenting the WOF teachers saying Jesus became Satanic in nature.

The game player is you who refuse to address points and resort to accusations of "insults" "games" "taunts" and "disrespect". You should man up to your wrong theology instead of these intellectual cowardly games you play.
 
Sep 14, 2017
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#49

Actually., Lancalot is pretty adamant on the truth and seeks to bring it out and speak it out in subjects concerning Bible interpretation.
Lie #1. Lancelot is adamant on WOF teaching, which is heretical, to say the least.


And especially when there are misconceptions and wrong 2nd 3rd and 4th re-written ideas of what word of faith really means by those who are not word of faith or who know nothing about word of faith from a proper perspective. Have never seen Lancalot dislike anyone or be disrespectful to anyone if they disagree with him. Or "oppose" him as you say Speak2.
Lie #2 .No rewritten ideas here.


Just as their are many different Baptist beliefs in denominations... there are many different word of faith beliefs in denominations. Just because a bunch of people agree with each others opinions ....this does not a truth make.
Lie #3. There are a few variations, mostly against the prosperity message.


I often will take time to learn to listen.
Big Lie #4. Everyone who's been trying to help you all say the same thing......... you don't listen.

And that is a lost art these days. Many prefer to jump to assumptions and conclusions based on things they've "known" for years.
Lie #5. Some do, but this statement is you trying to justify yerself for not listening.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#50
I already explained that "incarnation" reference, DB. It was a reference to the indwelling of the Spirit (orthodox theology) and nothing more. And Jesus didn't become satanic. He was separated from God the Father and later the fellowship was restored, when the Bible says "He tasted death for every man". (Heb. 2:9) That's the only sense in which He was "born again" spiritually.

I have to say this seems to be a game with you, accusing people of ignoring you if they don't have the time to read through thousands of posts. I do have a life apart from CC, and am spending too much time here as it is, but people need to get the facts on many of these issues so I decided to take the time to provide them. Theology is not a contest with a winner and a loser. It's the study of God, and we as adults ought to be able to do conduct ourselves in such as way as to make this pursuit one of mutual respect and sharing our views, not one of playground taunts and insults.
Then you don't understand or are purposely misrepresenting the WOF teachers saying Jesus became Satanic in nature.

The game player is you who refuse to address points and resort to accusations of "insults" "games" "taunts" and "disrespect". You should man up to your wrong theology instead of these intellectual cowardly games you play.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#51
Isnt that like flailing against a lie similar to what ive heard called a strawman.
When there is no edification present there will be drought and soon famine.

This is a Board for believer to discuss The Holy inspired Scriptures and fellowship with one another in the Breath of Life.
Be careful that the world does not choke out the Word in your walk with the Lord.
Using scripture to disprove leaven is not flailing. Neither is it a strawman.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#52
Isnt that like flailing against a lie similar to what ive heard called a strawman.
When there is no edification present there will be drought and soon famine.

This is a Board for believer to discuss The Holy inspired Scriptures and fellowship with one another in the Breath of Life.
Be careful that the world does not choke out the Word in your walk with the Lord.

And who says no one has been edified (built up in their faith) by the truth being wielded against pretty sounding lies?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#53
Wof Theologie is in my Eyes false teaching and Bases on human wisdom, but not Gods wisdom revealed in the scripture.
Its not even based on human wisdom. Its based on human desire I think...
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#54
What else that we are Gods Children, have an new Creation in us, which First will revealed when the Lord is Coming and Pickup up in the Air.
Till then our body is fleshly under the Curse and is suffering like the whole Creation.

Yes.
The body will still die because of sin. The spirit will live. :)
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,946
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#56
Am not Lancelot Bluto...but this scripture came to mind.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Sorry Brother Bluto, I'm confused and don't understand what the question or topic is here. (Which isn't unusual for me. hehe :rolleyes: ) Can you please explain? Who are you quoting , who are you addressing (Lancelot or other CC members?), are you for or against WOF, and who is accusing who of being prejudice or misinformed?

Also, I never really considered this scripture in that context before, Jesus actually becoming sin.

II Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him
.

Can you please explain what you are saying the Word is telling us here? Thanks brother!
:)

I am not bluto but I will bring the context of II Corinthians 5:21 by starting with verse 17

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

The context is
transference or the Bible term imputation, verse 19 "not counting thier trespasses against them" how did God not count our sins against us? He imputed our sins on to Jesus, in the same way God the Father did not count our trespasses against us, He counted our sin on Jesus, Here is how the Mounce translation translates 5:21 “He made him who knew no sin to be a sin-offering for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

By the transference of our sins, transgressions and iniquities on Jesus, He became sin or the sin offering in the same way that we were not having our strespasses against us or sinless when we were still in our sin. He made Jesus sin to be our sin offering so that He could pay for our sins. At the same time He made us sinless or not counting our sins agaist us, the Father is placing our trespasses on Jesus. The Greek word for "made" translates as "in behalf of" this is from BAGD Greek to English Lexicon, the standard of Greek to English Lexicons. So you can see how a straight translation would use "made" instead of "in behalf of" but you can see why Mounce translated the thought as "sin-offering"

Here is something to think about, satan in not sin, breaking the Law is sin. I John 3:4
“Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.” So the idea that sin is satan is not Biblical. Here is something else Moses did not place a serpent on the pole, here's the story in Numbers 21:4-9

“From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way.5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.”6 Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.7 And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.8 And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.”9 So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.”

Moses made a bronze serpent, it was not one of the fiery serpent, for the teaching that Jesus became satan and the base of the teaching is the story in Numbers. Moses should of picked up one of the fiery serpent for the story to support the idea that Jesus became satan and Jesus was on the cross like the serpent that Moses placed on the pole, since the serpent on the pole is supposed to be the same as the serpent that are supposed to be sin.

Hope that help with II Corinthians 5:21
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,084
155
63
#57
Being as our words are continuously recorded, does anyone really want to record against the word of faith?

Hi stones, I see this in a different way. You and I agree that words (tongue) are very important here on earth because they repeat often times what is in our minds and hearts. (words) We also know that words/tongue have power to hurt or to heal.

Human tongues set many things in motion wherever any of us go., Words are used every single day to the detriment or blessing of all people on this planet and it's very wise and prudent to watch what we say even though we have no power over what others say. Is it any wonder the world is in such a mess of evil? So many lies and evils being voiced in the world by the words from the tongues of people also in written form.

It kind of boggles the mind to think of all the words over TV., internet., books., conversations both public and private all over the world that add to or take away curses of all kinds like lies.,slander., gossip, condemnation, greed., lust.., etc... I know you agree with all that too.

But what I see differently I think than you maybe unless I'm misunderstanding this post., is our words and actions are not being recorded like a video to be brought up again to be played before God and all on judgment day for us to be judged by. (on earth...yes., what we say for good or bad matters) But we are always judged IN Christ at all times now and forever.

I believe because of Jesus all our sins are forgiven... all of our sins from the past.. in the present and also in the future. And as long as Jesus is alive.... and He is and will be forever., we can always stand pure and clean and righteous in Him. No fear of judgment or condemnation coming from God when we meet Him face to face. (or here on earth)

In this sinful world there are consequences already in place for wrong things done., for immorality in all it's forms. But Jesus has overcome them all for us. And we don't have to be subject to the evil or take part in it. Sin will always bring death and should any of us believers chose to sin., we put ourselves under it willingly and suffer from it coming from 1. The world
2. The flesh 3. The devil.

We have been saved from the POWER of sin., we have not been saved from the PRESENCE of it. Let me know what you think.
 
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stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
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#58
The reason why I don't check what all others say is for the fact that I do compare scriptures with scripture. It's enough to follow the ministries that God has called me to.
Just a bit more here Bluto. I did answer you in my first post as to explaining how I see the high calling of God. And am not wish washy by any means in my faith.

As I said, I do my own studies and have done Word studies of books. Every word. Entire books. But, I also ask the Lord questions and He answers me.

I do believe that Paul was seeking to become a son. It's a revelation that does mean in His image. The Divine image within. This is singular in our character. Yet, we also are His body, and each member is given gifts and callings that we might move together in unity. That is what I seek.

I dont believe in one having it all. One body yes.

I do do appreciate your willingness to hear what is being said.

So if Hagin, Copeland, or anyone else is speaking flowing together as one body, I will listen. I'm hearing the How of these things. And my teachers do manifest the fruit of their faith both in demonstrations of Holy Spirit, and the revelation of the present day ministry of Jesus in this earth.

blessings as you seek to know the truth of Jesus!
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#59
joaniemarie;34759 We have been saved from the POWER of sin. said:
I agree with this. The power of sin is death. That is what we have been saved from, an eternal death.
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
63
#60
Hi stones, I see this in a different way. You and I agree that words (tongue) are very important here on earth because they repeat often times what is in our minds and hearts. (words) We also know that words/tongue have power to hurt or to heal.

Human tongues set many things in motion wherever any of us go., Words are used every single day to the detriment or blessing of all people on this planet and it's very wise and prudent to watch what we say even though we have no power over what others say. Is it any wonder the world is in such a mess of evil? So many lies and evils being voiced in the world by the words from the tongues of people also in written form.

It kind of boggles the mind to think of all the words over TV., internet., books., conversations both public and private all over the world that add to or take away curses of all kinds like lies.,slander., gossip, condemnation, greed., lust.., etc... I know you agree with all that too.

But what I see differently I think than you maybe unless I'm misunderstanding this post., is our words and actions are not being recorded like a video to be brought up again to be played before God and all on judgment day for us to be judged by. (on earth...yes., what we say for good or bad matters) But we are always judged IN Christ at all times now and forever.

I believe because of Jesus all our sins are forgiven... all of our sins from the past.. in the present and also in the future. And as long as Jesus is alive.... and He is and will be forever., we can always stand pure and clean and righteous in Him. No fear of judgment or condemnation coming from God when we meet Him face to face. (or here on earth)

In this sinful world there are consequences already in place for wrong things done., for immorality in all it's forms. But Jesus has overcome them all for us. And we don't have to be subject to the evil or take part in it. Sin will always bring death and should any of us believers chose to sin., we put ourselves under it willingly and suffer from it coming from 1. The world
2. The flesh 3. The devil.

We have been saved from the POWER of sin., we have not been saved from the PRESENCE of it. Let me know what you think.
I think we do believe the same Joanie. Being judged by our words only refers to rewards not punishment, nor even sin. I see the things we say affecting our entire families, communities and even the world. This has to do with intercession in prayer too, but what we receive in heaven, we should also have a mind to guard our hearts, and control our tongue.

As far as being recorded, I think the scriptures reveal this. There are many books there. Eternal life though is secure.