Sodom and Gomorrha - a review

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K

karuna

Guest
#1
I've been reading with interest recently the threads in which Sodom and Gomorrha are mentioned and set out to study all the Biblical references to it. In a lot of places, Sodom and Gomorrha are simply used as threats - "you'll be destroyed like they were if you don't repent" - which doesn't shed a lot of light on the particulars of their sins. We begin with the pertinent passage from Genesis 19:

Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them.” So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.” And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door.
It's clear that all the men of Sodom meant to rape the visitors and that this would have been male-male sex. However, it's worth noting that even the mob sees the sex as a bad thing. They plan on doing worse to Lot, which means they think this is some kind of punishment or torture. This is not merely sex, this is sex with the intent of cruelty. What had the visitors done to deserve this? We most commonly assume that the men of the town tried to have sex with the visitors because they were new and attractive. It seems, however, that we are to understand that the town didn't treat strangers well. By telling Lot that he "came in to stay here," they're reminding him that he's an outsider they still haven't accepted. By merely protecting the strangers, he's going to receive worse than gang rape.

If this instance is meant to characterize the sin of Sodom, the primary conclusion is that they were awful to their passersby and probably left a number of them dead. Perhaps they raped everyone who came through town, but they were still capable of worse. What were they planning on doing to Lot? We look elsewhere for clues. There are two references in the Hebrew scriptures worth noting:

Jeremiah 23:14 says:

And among the prophets of Jerusalem
I have seen something horrible:
They commit adultery and live a lie.
They strengthen the hands of evildoers,
so that none of them turn from their wickedness.
They are all like Sodom to me;
the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah.
Ezekiel 16:48-50 says:

As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.
In these two comparisons, we see adultery, living a lie, strengthening the hands of evildoers, unrepentance, pride, gluttony, idleness, failing to strengthen the week and needy, haughtiness, and abominations. If the authors wanted us to understand that the primary sin of Sodom and Gomorrha were homosexuality, they did a poor job. Adultery is primarily understood as a heterosexual sin and abominations, which are listed last, can include: disaster (Daniel 11:31), bad sacrifices (Isaiah 66:3), idolatry (Deut 29:17, Ezekiel 20:7-8, 1 Kings 11:5-7), witchcraft (2 Kings 23:24), sexual sins (Jeremiah 13:27), forbidden foods (Leviticus 11:10-12, 13, 23, 41), other animals (7:21), etc.

Finally, the most important New Testament reference. Jude 1:7 says:

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
"Fornication" is clear enough, but this in itself does not indicate homosexuality. The key phrase here for those who quote it seems to be "going after strange flesh," which in transliterated Greek is "apelquosai opisw sarkos eteras." Interestingly, the word "strange" here is "eteras," from which we get our word "hetero." It is only used once in Jude. It means, according to Middle Liddell:

one or the other of two
another, of many, with a sense of difference
of another kind, different
It's a pretty common word. For instance, it's used 32 times in Luke. Here are some examples:

Luke 4:43: And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Luke 4:7: And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

Luke 9:59: And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
In other words, it's not clear why the English translation reads "strange" there. I must preach the kingdom of God to the strange cities also? And they beckoned unto their partners, which were on the gay boat? No, the word here merely means "other." It's one of those cases in which the translators didn't quite know what the author intended, picked a vague English word, and ran with it.

If the author wished to indicate that men went after other men, "eretos" was definitely the wrong word to use. If they were going after their own type of flesh, we would have seen "omo," from which we get the prefix "homo-" as in "homosexual." What did the author intend? Some have suggested that the three men in Genesis were actually angels, so the men were going after angel flesh. Alternatively, the men of Sodom did tend to rape any foreigner who came through - they went after foreigner flesh.

In any case, it seems the word is still as vague today as when the translators first tried to bring it over. Nevertheless, there are some interpretations which are definitely wrong, such as the idea that they were going after the same type of flesh as themselves.

I welcome your comments and corrections.
 
Oct 17, 2009
325
1
0
#2
I think you're largely correct, though I'm still not sure the desire of the men of Sodom to literally rape Lot's guests can be inferred. They certainly wanted to do something bad to them, but the word know is only used to mean sexual relations one percent of the time it appears in the Hebrew scripture.

At any rate, the interpretation that the cities were destroyed "because of homosexuals" is clearly faulty, as other parts of scripture make it clear that whatever sexual perversions the cities were involved in, they were just symptoms of a larger full-scale culture of cruelty, corruption, and xenophobia.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#3
I think you're largely correct, though I'm still not sure the desire of the men of Sodom to literally rape Lot's guests can be inferred. They certainly wanted to do something bad to them, but the word know is only used to mean sexual relations one percent of the time it appears in the Hebrew scripture.
Thank you for the comment. Doesn't the offer of the (virgin!) daughters clarify at least Lot's understanding of their intent?
 
Oct 17, 2009
325
1
0
#4
True, it's certainly possible that rape was part of what they had planned. However, it could be that the presentation of his virgin daughters wasn't so much an alternative to the (more?) reprehensible act of raping the men, but a sort of 'peace' offering. "I'll give you these shiny new virgins you don't harm my guests."
 
K

karuna

Guest
#5
"I'll give you these shiny new virgins you don't harm my guests."
*chokes on her coffee*

That's interesting. I'd never considered that possibility. Thanks. :)
 
Jan 22, 2010
1,022
1
0
#6
Ahahaha, Brack, that's funny XD

Anyway, Karuna, great post! You've done exactly what we're supposed to do with Scripture. Rather than look at one Scripture and base a theology around it, you've gone all over the bible. That's the true context, with the Scriptures :)

You're certainly correct, too. Homosexuality was actually a minor sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. They weren't destroyed because of homosexuality, but because of a host of other sins.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#7
the word know is only used to mean sexual relations one percent of the time it appears in the Hebrew scripture
I was curious about this, so I looked up the verb and started counting how it was used in scripture. I got up to Exodus 7:5 (and will continue later if no other study is available). 45 times, some form of the verb is used to indicate knowledge of a fact or thing or cleverness, in the sense of knowing a trade or skill. Only 12 times so far has it referred to knowing people and seven of those times have been explicitly sexual, 8/13 if you include Sodom.

Would it be possible to point me towards an already completed study?
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#8
Reading commentary is a secondary exegesis if you truly exegete the Scripture Genesis 18 and 19 make it very clear what the sin is, however I think you know what the sin is but trying to water it down.

Genesis 19:5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them.

I think that is pretty clear since we need a Hebrew mindset to understand the bible being a Jewish book, prior than a western way of thinking. To "know" somebody is to be intimate. Which indicates sex. Surprisingly the NIV translates it better than KJV or NKJV it says "They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Even if we don't have other scholarly translations saying this, we still need a Hebraic way of thinking which would obviously point to homosexuality. As far as the adultery and abomination goes -

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

So to me, the "sin" of Sodom and Gomorrah is extremely clear. So you don't even need to add in Jude or any Greek words to understand this, just try to think like a Jew and you're set :).
 
K

karuna

Guest
#9
I'm under the impression you didn't read the thread, neither my original post nor the few threads immediately in front of yours. I took it as axiomatic that they intended sex in the original post and later set out to study the verb in the Hebrew, just in case.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#10
Oh sorry, I read your original post but didn't get to the other ones. Glad you found your answer keep studying the Word :).
 
K

karuna

Guest
#11
Oh sorry, I read your original post but didn't get to the other ones. Glad you found your answer keep studying the Word :).
That makes less sense. It wasn't until after my original post that someone, not me, said "know" might not indicate sexual knowledge. If you had read only my post, you would have known that I agreed with what you wrote about the verb. In my entire first post, it is quite clear that I believe the townsmen intended to rape their visitors. And I quote:

It's clear that all the men of Sodom meant to rape the visitors and that this would have been male-male sex.
For what it's worth, if God sees fit to discuss Sodom elsewhere in the Bible, it's ok if we review those scriptures when we're discussing Sodom. You might think I'm adding in Jude. I, personally, believe God put it there before I got my hands on it.
 
Last edited:
A

Abiding

Guest
#12
To me its very difficult to study scripture and not make it lean towards what im hoping it means, without an open unbiased mind word studies allow usually more possible private interpretation. If this study was done to show that Sodom and Gomorrah was judged for more than homosexuality i would agree.Im not sure that your indication of sexual sins listed last is an order of the severity of sinfulness. I rather think it may be a list showing progression in sinfulness in that society. History also can give us a list of degration of societies. Sin begets sin when tolerated and drags downward until its wiping out our very nature. In other words a bruise is not the worse part of getting hit with a bat.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#13
That makes less sense. It wasn't until after my original post that someone, not me, said "know" might not indicate sexual knowledge. If you had read only my post, you would have known that I agreed with what you wrote about the verb. In my entire first post, it is quite clear that I believe the townsmen intended to rape their visitors. And I quote:



For what it's worth, if God sees fit to discuss Sodom elsewhere in the Bible, it's ok if we review those scriptures when we're discussing Sodom. You might think I'm adding in Jude. I, personally, believe God put it there before I got my hands on it.
You were trying to water down the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah in your original post and I was pointing out it was extremely clear why it was destroyed. No need to argue though, but you were trying to interpret it with the wrong mindset. Of course there was other sins but homosexuality was the sin God destroyed them for. You agreed on what it meant, I was telling you it was obvious. I wasn't correctly you, just affirming it was the sin. Like I said, you had the wrong mindset like you do when you read my posts, you are getting defensive :).
 
K

karuna

Guest
#14
To me its very difficult to study scripture and not make it lean towards what im hoping it means, without an open unbiased mind word studies allow usually more possible private interpretation.
In this case, is there a more unbiased way to understand the vague and suggestive "strange" in Jude? In fact, I would argue that "strange" is simply an error in translation, introducing bias where none initially existed. The word is overwhelmingly more commonly translated as "other." I don't think I'm making a mistake by pointing it out. Have I?
 
K

karuna

Guest
#15
You were trying to water down the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah in your original post
This is incorrect. I stated that I believed they were about to engage in male-male gang rape of strangers. Calling it merely homosexuality is giving it a pretty name.

and I was pointing out it was extremely clear why it was destroyed.
No, you were pointing out that it was extremely clear that the men wished to rape their visitors, which was not questioned in the original post.

If you insist that God destroyed them for this particular sin, however, then you'll need to explain why he's already decided on his judgment in Genesis 18, before we have any examples of homosexuality in Sodom. Or why elsewhere, homosexuality is not explicitly mentioned as the reason for Sodom's destruction, but other sins are explicitly named.

As an example of the failure in logic, let's assume that I've heard about a crack den downtown. I tell the police about the violence in the area and they go to arrest them. The dealers hear them coming and there's a shootout in which many die. Now, was killing cops over drugs a sin? Obviously. Did we go there to destroy them because we knew they'd shoot at us? No. Am I watering the murders down by saying that the sin of the crackden was their drug use, their abuse of the weak, etc.? Obviously not.

In the papers the next morning, the crackden shootout will be at the top of the list, but the reason we arrested or killed the dealers will be given elsewhere and it's the real reason. God has listed the reasons elsewhere, beneath the headlines. I suppose, though, if you're given to just skimming what's in front of you, they're easy to miss.

Of course there was other sins but homosexuality was the sin God destroyed them for.
This doesn't seem to be what the scriptures say, as I've explained.

you are getting defensive :).
You didn't read the post carefully. I'm disappointed and exasperated for having to explain again.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#16
sighs, Not worth pointing out your contradictions or false assumptions based on western philosophy.

I will apologize for not reading all the posts on the thread, when I was just replying to your original post and only affirming one of your points, which you took it as being corrected.

I mean I even said, "Reading commentary is a secondary exegesis if you truly exegete the Scripture Genesis 18 and 19 make it very clear what the sin is, however I think you know what the sin is but trying to water it down."

Pointing out you knew the sin - homosexuality. Anyway I think you just like to argue and don't really care what I have to say so I'll step away from this thread.

May God bless you.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#17
You weren't merely affirming that I knew the sin. You said I was trying to water it down. I do care what you say, but it seems you're unwilling to discuss it after you toss it out there. As an example:

sighs, Not worth pointing out your contradictions or false assumptions based on western philosophy.
This is clearly baiting. Please either contribute to the discussion or don't, but do pick one or the other.

The attempted gang rape was a very clear sin. It was not the sin for which Sodom was destroyed. If you believe otherwise, you'll need to explain why, when God has explicitly stated that he destroyed it for other sins, that you know better.
 
Oct 17, 2009
325
1
0
#18
It's explicitly stated in Ezekiel what Sodom's main sins were. To suggest that God destroyed the cities solely or even primarily because of men boinking men is a form of bigotry and nowhere near a reasonable exegesis.
 
M

Mal316

Guest
#19
sorry, but "men boinking men" made me lol.

Ahem, don't mind me. Do carry on, that was a good point you made.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#20
It's explicitly stated in Ezekiel what Sodom's main sins were. To suggest that God destroyed the cities solely or even primarily because of men boinking men is a form of bigotry and nowhere near a reasonable exegesis.
Perhaps you could break down the Hebrew text for us, and explain what it is saying?