Sodom and Gomorrha - a review

[karuna]

Also no offense, but your personal view of Jude doesn't make it the orthodox interpretation, I can actually quote Scholars and Rabbis supporting homosexuality was the abominable sin Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for.

We've already established you can't read the Greek and that you take your opinions from others. You missed it the first time, apparently, but an appeal to authority will accomplish nothing here and, further, you're only threatening to make an appeal to authority. We've not seen a single name and, even if we had, they'd still have to sit down in polite discourse and explain their view for us to be convinced. Is it alright if we discuss the text of the Bible rather than your address book?

(For what it's worth, quoting one of the more standard Greek lexicons and showing how the word is used elsewhere in scripture does not a personal view make.)

Gay believers? *gasp*, no wonder you're trying so hard to justify Sodom and Gomorrah.

No one here is trying to justify the gang rape of angels by an entire town. No one here is trying to justify homosexuality. You're not reading carefully. This has become a theme.

We can move on to the real issue if you want, is being gay a sin?

As the OP, the issue I've chosen to discuss here is whether the common idea that Sodom was destroyed primarily for sodomy is correct, because it's very common. If you'd like to create your own thread for this other issue, that'd be fine.

 

[Brackenzee]

Actually there are several buried threads on homosexuality that he could dig up.

 

[Maranatha_Yeshua]

If you can demonstrate that Jesus wants us to psychologically abuse people, please go right ahead. I'll pop some popcorn.

Seeing how Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else in the bible, but psychologically abuse? I guess that is a good excuse to compromise the truth? I've never felt physiologically abused by reading the Bible. Maybe offended? But that is just your sinful nature responding to the the Word.

Mind if I ask you two questions first, what is the point of Jesus dying for us and the point of repenting from our sin?

 

[Maranatha_Yeshua]

We've already established you can't read the Greek and that you take your opinions from others. You missed it the first time, apparently, but an appeal to authority will accomplish nothing here and, further, you're only threatening to make an appeal to authority. We've not seen a single name and, even if we had, they'd still have to sit down in polite discourse and explain their view for us to be convinced. Is it alright if we discuss the text of the Bible rather than your address book?

(For what it's worth, quoting one of the more standard Greek lexicons and showing how the word is used elsewhere in scripture does not a personal view make.)
.

Since you clearly can't discern which part of the post was directed towards you I would suggest you try reading other posts. Not only do I not care I don't know Greek, but the Tanakh is written in Hebrew so I don't know what Greek has to do with it. We can talk about Sodom and Gomorrah all day without using one Greek word. I was just making an example out of Jude saying just because you think it's interpreted a certain way doesn't make it official.

I wasn't threatening, but I noticed you like to use words loosely and don't understand what an exegesis is. But what kind of a threat is it to quote a commentary?

Not going to reply to the other parts of the post because none of that was directed towards you.

 

[Brackenzee]

Thousands and thousands of books have been written on that question, I'm not going to derail the thread to answer it. Start a new thread for it.

 

[MahogonySnail]

The people of Sodom were known to indulge in specific lasciviousness, particularly homosexuality and bestiality. Jude says fornication, which covers a wide range of sexually deviant practices, anything from oral and anal sex to unmarrieds sleeping together right through to the more perverted homosexuality, bestiality and necrophilia.
Jud 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.


The issue is not that they only did a particular sin such as homosexuality, but that they were so corrupt that they did whatever their heart desired, and that usually was sin of a sexual nature. They lusted after angels, they lusted after animals and inanimate objects, they lusted after people of the same sex. All of the above. Their depravity is shown when they actually turn down the offer of Lot's virgin daughters, in favour of the visiting angel/men.

 

[MahogonySnail]

As Wesley said regarding the choice of offering his daugthers, "It is true, of two evils we must chose the less, but of two sins we must chose neither, nor ever do evil that good may come of it."

 

[HumbleSaint]

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

Judgement is comming.

 

[karuna]

Since you clearly can't discern which part of the post was directed towards you I would suggest you try reading other posts. Not only do I not care I don't know Greek, but the Tanakh is written in Hebrew so I don't know what Greek has to do with it.

The verse in Jude is often used to bolster the idea that the primary reason Sodom was destroyed was homosexuality. Since this is the idea I've chosen to investigate, I chose to investigate one of the verses most commonly used in the argument. If you don't know why this is pertinent, you haven't witnessed enough of these discussions and haven't read this thread.

We can talk about Sodom and Gomorrah all day without using one Greek word.

We could. And I included a discussion of the Hebrew in my original post, even trying to figure out what abominations meant. In any case, I stand by what I said earlier. If God chose to discuss Sodom in Greek, I don't think we should necessarily toss it out if we're discussing Sodom. Why, precisely, does the Hebrew passage win out over all the others? Is it because it's first? Or longest? What characteristic of the Hebrew lets us ignore the Greek?

I was just making an example out of Jude saying just because you think it's interpreted a certain way doesn't make it official.

I wasn't trying to make anything official. You weren't reading carefully if you think I was trying to create an official interpretation. I was putting forth my own idea and asking for comments and correction. I suspect you didn't read the last line of the first post.

I wasn't threatening, but I noticed you like to use words loosely and don't understand what an exegesis is. But what kind of a threat is it to quote a commentary?

It's precisely what you're doing. "I could quote these guys, I really could." You're pretending these people you haven't introduced to us matter, as if their opinions were conclusive.

Not going to reply to the other parts of the post because none of that was directed towards you.

Again, if you're unwilling to answer for things you've said in public, you might not want to say them.

 

[Maranatha_Yeshua]

The verse in Jude is often used to bolster the idea that the primary reason Sodom was destroyed was homosexuality. Since this is the idea I've chosen to investigate, I chose to investigate one of the verses most commonly used in the argument. If you don't know why this is pertinent, you haven't witnessed enough of these discussions and haven't read this thread.



We could. And I included a discussion of the Hebrew in my original post, even trying to figure out what abominations meant. In any case, I stand by what I said earlier. If God chose to discuss Sodom in Greek, I don't think we should necessarily toss it out if we're discussing Sodom. Why, precisely, does the Hebrew passage win out over all the others? Is it because it's first? Or longest? What characteristic of the Hebrew lets us ignore the Greek?



I wasn't trying to make anything official. You weren't reading carefully if you think I was trying to create an official interpretation. I was putting forth my own idea and asking for comments and correction. I suspect you didn't read the last line of the first post.



It's precisely what you're doing. "I could quote these guys, I really could." You're pretending these people you haven't introduced to us matter, as if their opinions were conclusive.



Again, if you're unwilling to answer for things you've said in public, you might not want to say them.

Wow, you really like to argue and complain about unnecessary stuff. I'll answer one of your questions to try to avoid some of your long, and outrageous post, "Why, precisely, does the Hebrew passage win out over all the others? Is it because it's first? Or longest? What characteristic of the Hebrew lets us ignore the Greek?"

Why Hebrew? Well obviously the bible is a Jewish book and God revealed Himself through the Hebrew language. Even if the New Testament was originally written in Greek, we should always try to understand it with a Hebrew mindset or read it in Hebrew. Jesus was Rabbi Yeshua, not some Greek pastor.

 

[Maranatha_Yeshua]

The people of Sodom were known to indulge in specific lasciviousness, particularly homosexuality and bestiality. Jude says fornication, which covers a wide range of sexually deviant practices, anything from oral and anal sex to unmarrieds sleeping together right through to the more perverted homosexuality, bestiality and necrophilia.
Jud 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.


The issue is not that they only did a particular sin such as homosexuality, but that they were so corrupt that they did whatever their heart desired, and that usually was sin of a sexual nature. They lusted after angels, they lusted after animals and inanimate objects, they lusted after people of the same sex. All of the above. Their depravity is shown when they actually turn down the offer of Lot's virgin daughters, in favour of the visiting angel/men.

Thank you!

 

[karuna]

Why Hebrew? Well obviously the bible is a Jewish book and God revealed Himself through the Hebrew language. Even if the New Testament was originally written in Greek, we should always try to understand it with a Hebrew mindset or read it in Hebrew. Jesus was Rabbi Yeshua, not some Greek pastor.

This isn't what you're trying to do. You've tried to exclude Jude from consideration entirely, not trying to interpret it back through a Hebrew lens. At the very least, it will be necessary to figure out which Hebrew word would have stood in for the Greek word I examined. If we're to discuss Jude at all, you might have to be willing to read the text below the English translation.

And I'd appreciate if you'd read and respond. We're here to discuss, presumably, so it's best if we don't do it half-heartedly.

 

[Brackenzee]

Thank you!

...He wasn't agreeing with you! X_X

 

[Maranatha_Yeshua]

...He wasn't agreeing with you! X_X

He said....

"The issue is not that they only did a particular sin such as homosexuality, but that they were so corrupt that they did whatever their heart desired, and that usually was sin of a sexual nature. They lusted after angels, they lusted after animals and inanimate objects, they lusted after people of the same sex. All of the above. Their depravity is shown when they actually turn down the offer of Lot's virgin daughters, in favour of the visiting angel/men."

Can you read it now?

 

[Brackenzee]

That... was.. not your argument earlier.

I think that is pretty clear since we need a Hebrew mindset to understand the bible being a Jewish book, prior than a western way of thinking. To "know" somebody is to be intimate. Which indicates sex. Surprisingly the NIV translates it better than KJV or NKJV it says "They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Even if we don't have other scholarly translations saying this, we still need a Hebraic way of thinking which would obviously point to homosexuality. As far as the adultery and abomination goes -

The entire point of Snail's post that was the homosexuality was just a symptom of their utter depravity, not the cause of their destruction.

 

[karuna]

The issue is not that they only did a particular sin such as homosexuality, but that they were so corrupt that they did whatever their heart desired, and that usually was sin of a sexual nature.

Right. The issue for which they were destroyed is that they were generally corrupted. Homosexuality was one manifestation of this general corruption. To say that they were destroyed for homosexuality is like saying someone died because their unhealthy weight loss...



...oh and also they had cancer.

I think we're pretty much done here. I appeal to MahoganySnail's authority.

 

[Maranatha_Yeshua]

That... was.. not your argument earlier.

When did I say homosexuality was the only sin committed?
It was the final conclusion as to why they were destroyed.

Let me quote Snail again.

The issue is not that they only did a particular sin such as homosexuality, but that they were so corrupt that they did whatever their heart desired, and that usually was sin of a sexual nature.

I was agreeing homosexuality was not the only sin they were committing.

 

[Brackenzee]

But you were arguing that it was the main reason when Genesis text itself doesn't specify and when Ezekiel specifically says otherwise.

 

[karuna]

I was agreeing homosexuality was not the only sin they were committing.

This has never been the point. In the original post, I quoted verses which gave lists of the other sins they were fond of.

 

[Maranatha_Yeshua]

But you were arguing that it was the main reason when Genesis text itself doesn't specify and when Ezekiel specifically says otherwise.

Except Ezekiel doesn't say otherwise, you have to read verse 50 and then figure out what an abomination is. I also don't think you could interpret what the abomination is as to, you don't even believe homosexuality is a sin.