Son of man, Can these bones live??

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MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#21
Jan 8, 2009
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#21
I'd say, salvation comes as a result of faith, not faith as a result of salvation. That is, a person becomes saved if and only if they have faith. That doesn't mean there is not a process of God's drawing and influence upon their heart and mind prior to coming to faith. But I wouldn't call that salvation. Just as I wouldn't equate Jesus carrying His cross with the actual crucifixion. But I think it is good to say not "I am not saved because I believed", but "I am saved because of what Christ has done". Faith is a means to an end really, not the source of object of the salvation itself.

If we take the example of Abraham, God chose Abraham, God made a promise to Abraham, Abraham believed God, and that resulted in righteousness. Why did God choose this pagan worshipper named Abram? Because He wanted to.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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#22
#22
MahogonySnail said:
I'd say, salvation comes as a result of faith, not faith as a result of salvation. That is, a person becomes saved if and only if they have faith. That doesn't mean there is not a process of God's drawing and influence upon their heart and mind prior to coming to faith. But I wouldn't call that salvation. Just as I wouldn't equate Jesus carrying His cross with the actual crucifixion. But I think it is good to say not "I am not saved because I believed", but "I am saved because of what Christ has done". Faith is a means to an end really, not the source of object of the salvation itself.

If we take the example of Abraham, God chose Abraham, God made a promise to Abraham, Abraham believed God, and that resulted in righteousness. Why did God choose this pagan worshipper named Abram? Because He wanted to.
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Well Abram was chosen by God because God spoke to Abram personally and blessed him "and in thee all families of the earth be blessed."

The Lord also gave Abram land, this was before Abram showed any faith, he was just chosen by God, nowhere does the Bible say that Abram was a pagan, Abram was a shemite and from the line of Eber, the Bible introduces Abram strictly by his geneolgy.

Now early on because Abram had a beautiful wife he got into a little strife down in Egypt, so God helped Abram again.

Abram was already wealthy without the Lords help, extremely wealthy but the Lord gave him even more riches "And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver and in gold"

See so far it does not say anything about Abram having great faith...

and then God says to Abram that He will give Abram a huge parcel of what was probably some of the best land in all that part of the world.

By that stage Abram had become quite powerful as he had hundreds of servants, whom he was able to arm and organise into a small army 380 men strong.

Now when God says to Abram "Fear not Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

what does Abram say:

"Lord God what wilt thy give me, seeing I go childless"

So great riches and power was not enough from God, Abram wanted more, so he asked God for help, and God said no problem Abram count the stars as that will be as your seed!

Didn't take any faith on Abrams part, I mean God had done so much for him, that he felt like he could just ask for anything he wanted, that's not faith, that's what's called 'chosen'.....
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#23
#23
MahogonySnail said:
I'd say, salvation comes as a result of faith, not faith as a result of salvation. That is, a person becomes saved if and only if they have faith. That doesn't mean there is not a process of God's drawing and influence upon their heart and mind prior to coming to faith. But I wouldn't call that salvation. Just as I wouldn't equate Jesus carrying His cross with the actual crucifixion. But I think it is good to say not "I am not saved because I believed", but "I am saved because of what Christ has done". Faith is a means to an end really, not the source of object of the salvation itself.

If we take the example of Abraham, God chose Abraham, God made a promise to Abraham, Abraham believed God, and that resulted in righteousness. Why did God choose this pagan worshipper named Abram? Because He wanted to.
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We are saved by Christ's faith, God does not count any persons faith, only what faith is imputed to you by Grace of God.

So when it says "For by grace are ye saved through faith (Christ's faith is imputed to us) and that not of yourselves (Paul reinforcing that it is not your own faith that is counted) it is a gift from God." (what is the gift - faith - from Christ, your own faith does not count.)

This is because God wanted to show His Grace, His loved, even though we were dead, so before salvation you are counted as good as dead, you have nothing let alone something as beautiful as faith, that faith comes from God - first you are saved then God imputs Christ's faith unto you as a gift as by His grace according to His riches.

And this has already be pre-ordained from before ye were born because God has created you that ye will do good works "God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#24
Feb 12, 2009
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#24
I am a Calvinist, in the sense that I agree, with the doctrines of Grace etc, If we are truly Honest with ourselves we realise that it is God through the power of the Holy spirit that gives life (Titus 3:5).

It is God who changes your heart enabling you to ask fro repentance in Faith. (this topic has been covered before)

I once asked a freind of mine who truly believes that he chose Jesus (even though Jesus states the 'we did not choose Him, he chose us') and it once he chose he was a new creation.

I asked him how he got saved. He said he was in church and he could feel the power of God on Him.

I will stop here.. isnt it strange that that he felt the power of God on him or working in him, before he repented? (Titus 3:5)

I asked Him this then he started to realise what I was talking about.

Most people get confused when talking about Salvation. it is an umbrella term, it covers the hole process.

Regeneration, Justification,Sanctification, Adoption. Adoption is the Apex of your salvation and Sanctification is ongoing that is your part with Gods help.

There is nothing in your power that can bring you back from the dead, you are dead in your sins, there is nothing yo can do to justify yourself, God does it all, Sanctification is an ongoing process until the saints are glorified.

the term 'conversion' applies to the point where you repent and ask Jesus into your life, this can only happen when God changes your Stone Like heart (Ez 36) this is conversion.

So Salvation is an overall term and does not describe what goes on. remeber you were saved, are being saved and will be saved.

Soli Deo Gloria

Phil
 
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Walter11

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#25
#25
God must have caused Lazarus to first HEAR the words of Christ outside of that grave before he came to life. God caused the bones that were on the ground to first HEAR the word from God before caming to life, and anyone that is not saved has to first be caused by God to HEAR the Word that bring the faith of Christ as we read in Romans 10:17, thus came alive. All in all, God has to cause us to hear it cause we cant do that on our own. Notice what is said in Jeremiah 18:2, it say,...Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will CAUSE THEE TO HEAR MY WORDS.
 
phil36

phil36

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#26
Feb 12, 2009
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#26
Yep I agree Walter, Its through the power of the living word that brings you alive again, as basically, we are slaves to sin enemies of God before Salvation (Rom 1:18-32, cf Eph 2).
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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#27
#27
Walter11 said:
God must have caused Lazarus to first HEAR the words of Christ outside of that grave before he came to life. God caused the bones that were on the ground to first HEAR the word from God before caming to life, and anyone that is not saved has to first be caused by God to HEAR the Word that bring the faith of Christ as we read in Romans 10:17, thus came alive. All in all, God has to cause us to hear it cause we cant do that on our own. Notice what is said in Jeremiah 18:2, it say,...Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will CAUSE THEE TO HEAR MY WORDS.
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Well Lazarus was actually rotting when Jesus said "Lazarus, come forth", I mean maybe his ears were still attatched to his head but he certainly can't hear anything being dead for days in a tomb, no God said 'Live' and Lazarus got up and walked out, most likely feeling a little dazed and confused as you would if you just had been dead and buried, then the next thing your standing up in your stinking grave!

Dosen't sound like old Lazarus was doing much to help Jesus out, he was just stone cold dead, reminds me of Jonah, God comes to Jonah and he bolts, tries to runaway from God, dosen't get very far though, nowhere really to hide...sometimes God just makes you doing things, you don't want to do it, Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh, but 3 days inside a whale and Jonah was persuaded, not that he had a choice.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#28
Jan 8, 2009
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#28
We are saved by Christ's faith, God does not count any persons faith, only what faith is imputed to you by Grace of God.

So when it says "For by grace are ye saved through faith (Christ's faith is imputed to us) and that not of yourselves (Paul reinforcing that it is not your own faith that is counted) it is a gift from God." (what is the gift - faith - from Christ, your own faith does not count
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It is a person's own faith. Righteousness is imputed. Fatih is not. There is no where in scripture where you'll find that faith is imputed. In the verse you mentioned, the grammatical construction of the Greek does not allow us to make "faith" the subject of the last clause. It is not "faith," but salvation through the faith, which is the gift of God.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#29
Jan 8, 2009
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#29
I think you'll find Abraham and his family were pagans/heathens before their conversion.And scripture confirms at least that Abraham's family were:

Jos 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
 
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BLU

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#30
Jul 26, 2009
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#30
Cup-of-Ruin said:
Well Lazarus was actually rotting when Jesus said "Lazarus, come forth", I mean maybe his ears were still attatched to his head but he certainly can't hear anything being dead for days in a tomb, no God said 'Live' and Lazarus got up and walked out, most likely feeling a little dazed and confused as you would if you just had been dead and buried, then the next thing your standing up in your stinking grave!

Dosen't sound like old Lazarus was doing much to help Jesus out, he was just stone cold dead, reminds me of Jonah, God comes to Jonah and he bolts, tries to runaway from God, dosen't get very far though, nowhere really to hide...sometimes God just makes you doing things, you don't want to do it, Jonah did not want to go to Nineveh, but 3 days inside a whale and Jonah was persuaded, not that he had a choice.
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You are both right, a rose by any other name is still a rose. Live or hear. You have to be alive to hear, so God did it all together, he made him alive and gave him the ears to hear His command.
If God can create the world by his word, he can do anything that pleases him, we do not have the ability to understand God for His ways are above us. All we have to go on is what the written word says, and we cannot add our own misguided mind to it. We are told not to trust in our own mind, Right?
 
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BLU

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#31
Jul 26, 2009
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#31
So the best we can do here is to know what faith is before we jump to conclusion.
Faithful, G4103- trustworthy.
Faith- G4102- persuasive, credence.
faithful-H 539 trust or believe.
Faith-H529-trusty-trustworthyness.

So what does that tell me? It is believing and trusting in God.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

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#32
#32
MahogonySnail said:
I think you'll find Abraham and his family were pagans/heathens before their conversion.And scripture confirms at least that Abraham's family were:

Jos 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
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Oh well there you have it, Abraham's father did indeed serve gods of the land, little Abram must grown up a pagan until God choose him and took him out into his own land and house, although, if I remember correctly he was old when God gave him all he needed and blessed him!

Actually that is a great speach by Joshua, very interesting, been awhile since I have read Joshua, where he says 'the flood' he means the Euprates obviously, bad translation in the KJV, again.

Yea says "I took your father Abraham from the other side of the Euphrates" Yea certainly defines God's soveriegn role in the life of Abraham, it was all God!!!!
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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#33
#33
MahogonySnail said:
It is a person's own faith. Righteousness is imputed. Fatih is not. There is no where in scripture where you'll find that faith is imputed. In the verse you mentioned, the grammatical construction of the Greek does not allow us to make "faith" the subject of the last clause. It is not "faith," but salvation through the faith, which is the gift of God.
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No the faith is not your own 'Snail, it's Christ's faith that is given as a gift to you by God's Grace, then that is counted for righteousness but 'not of your own'! See there can be no contradiction in the word so the only resolution between faith and works dispute is that the word says that faith is not your own, but that the faith is given to you, which will lead to a good work that is counted for righteousness, it cannot be either your faith or your works, it can only be Christ's faith leads to a good work in you, you will be made yo do a good work because of the faith of Christ himself and according to the riches that are in Christ Jesus!

Basically a repentant Christian is truly left with nothing, no righteousness, for as it is written none have righteousness no not one, so if faith is counted for righteousness it cannot be our own, and now of course we must know that it was indeed Jesus' faith that has been imputed to us.
 
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BLU

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#34
Jul 26, 2009
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#34
Faith is synonymous with the word believing.
Moreover, If we are elected before the foundation of the earth, then faith had been inputed to us before we were even born, Right?
 
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Walter11

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#35
#35
Correct me if am wrong but i always thought faith cames by hearing the word of God as we read in scripture and that being on the other side of the flood means being on the other side of Gods WRATH. If we are the children of Abraham then it means we also were saved by God from his wrath that shall came upon those still on the other side of the flood who still worship other god that they think is God. Right?? Ezekiel 36:24-25 reads that God cleans us from all our filthiness and from all our idols, meaning we to were in the same situation like that of Abraham, right??
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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#36
#36
Walter11 said:
Correct me if am wrong but i always thought faith cames by hearing the word of God
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Yes it does, God creates when he speaks, He spoke in the whole of creation, but just like Lazarus or tiny atom we are as good as dead, we cannot hear, we only hear not by our own will, not by our own faith but by God's own will and faith.

as we read in scripture and that being on the other side of the flood means being on the other side of Gods WRATH.
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I agree with Bullinger Notes on this 'Flood' = River Euprates as the sense is geographical; "And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and lead him throught all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac." and "put away the gods which your father served that were on the other side of the flood"

oh wait nahar .... that really does mean it must be Euphrates, the word literally mean 'running stream' - yea this is another KJV disaster, very bad mistranslation, should read 'River Euprates' 100%...
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Walter11

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#37
#37
Walter11 said:
Correct me if am wrong but i always thought faith cames by hearing the word of God as we read in scripture and that being on the other side of the flood means being on the other side of Gods WRATH. If we are the children of Abraham then it means we also were saved by God from his wrath that shall came upon those still on the other side of the flood who still worship other god that they think is God. Right?? Ezekiel 36:24-25 reads that God cleans us from all our filthiness and from all our idols, meaning we to were in the same situation like that of Abraham, right??
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The reason i say that is becaure i know water is symbolic of God wrath which came as the flood and wiped of evil from the face of the earth and God has to do the same thing He did with Abraham to his children which we all are. God has to get us from the other side of His wrath to safty like he did with Noah.We all know who the ark is Right?
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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#38
#38
BLU said:
Faith is synonymous with the word believing.
Moreover, If we are elected before the foundation of the earth, then faith had been inputed to us before we were even born, Right?
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Yes, but maybe like the capacity, so it says like pre-odained to be disposed to good works, but then at the chosen appointed time God fills in this capacity with Christ's faith which was completed or perfected at calvary, so this gives Him the riches to be able to fulfill His promise, He has created the being with the capacity for the faith when it is ready He then fills, but certainly it is Christ's faith, as it says 'not of your own'...It is the only was to resolve, if we claim rigtheousness through our own faith will still resat on works and not Christ, can only accept Christ's faith to fully rest in Christ...
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#39
Jan 8, 2009
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#39
No, while faith is a gift, it is very much YOUR faith.

Note the many times where Jesus said in the new testament, "your faith has saved you". Do a word search for "your faith", it is found throughout the scripture.

Basically a repentant Christian is truly left with nothing, no righteousness, for as it is written none have righteousness no not one, so if faith is counted for righteousness it cannot be our own, and now of course we must know that it was indeed Jesus' faith that has been imputed
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Then scripture must be wrong:

2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
Psa 37:6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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#40
#40
Walter11 said:
The reason i say that is becaure i know water is symbolic of God wrath which came as the flood and wiped of evil from the face of the earth and God has to do the same thing He did with Abraham to his children which we all are. God has to get us from the other side of His wrath to safty like he did with Noah.We all know who the ark is Right?
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Yes your right but what the word says in Joshua 24:2 is nahar, so it is a wrong translation in the KJV, it should read 'River Euprates' but no arguement about water symbolgy, it's just that the KJV has to be constantly checked to correct all the mistakes. 'Flood' is simply the wrong translation in that particular instance.
 
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