Sovereign will & Permissive Will?

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slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
6,305
1,073
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#21
For true love would not exist if it was not for the existence of evil. God wants true love from His creation (i.e. man). But evil will not last forever and God is just and good and will see all evil punished it's due time. God delaying the punishment of evil from our perspective might seem unjust but God is eternal and is outside of time. To God, the Judgment has already happened. So evil has already been judged and conquered according to God. Sin and evil is not winning the day. God has won. God has the victory. It's time you start believing that, my friend.

God is pure good and God is pure love.

And the devil and man are the one's who are responsible for evil.
I am reminded of the book of Revelation when the Martyred Saints will appease God to show His due in the final days, and I see the level of Gods timing of all things. His faith sets the bar for us. I need to know, and this is before the trials, and during...that God is in control and that I am loved.... 1 Samuel 28:6 : Saul prayed to God but He did not answer--neither by dream nor by sign nor by prophet.

Job 34:29: If God is silent, what's that to you? If He turns His face away, what can you do about it? But whether silent or hidden, He's there, ruling.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#22
Ezekiel 36:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Uh-oh...
It is a common Hebrew idiom where an active verb is used to say God actively causes some thing to happen when in reality God simply permitted it to happen, God will permit them to walk in His statutes.

Compare to Eze 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Nothing happens without God's will behind it, since it's God will that permits them to walk in His statutes, in that sense God is said to have caused it.

1 Kings 3:14 "
And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days."

Why did God not CAUSE Solomon to walk in His statutes per Exe 36:27? The "if" shows it was Solomon's freewill choice to either walk or not walk in God's statutes, Solomon chose not to and God allowed it. IF Solomon had chosen to walk in God's statutes, God would have allowed it.

If God CAUSES men to walk in His statutes then how was it that Israel ever sinned? If God CAUSED them to walk in His statutes, then they would have perfectly kept God's law and been perfectly sinless not having transgressed God's statutes. Yet they did sin, many many many times. Did God fail to CAUSE them to keep His statutes all those times they did sin? Did God CAUSE them to worship idols? Why did God not CAUSE ALL Jews to accept Jesus as the promised Messiah?

Some Calvinists claim men have no freewill but can only choose to do what God CAUSES, preordains him to do. Did God, at the same time, CAUSE them to walk in His statutes and at the same time CAUSE them not to walk in his statutes but CAUSED them to worship idols? IS God confused about what He wanted to CAUSE Israel to do? How could God be CAUSING them to walk in His statutes yet at the same time CAUSE Israel to violate those statutes in idol worship?







 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,692
1,035
113
#23
It is a common Hebrew idiom where an active verb is used to say God actively causes some thing to happen when in reality God simply permitted it to happen, God will permit them to walk in His statutes.

Compare to Eze 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Nothing happens without God's will behind it, since it's God will that permits them to walk in His statutes, in that sense God is said to have caused it.

1 Kings 3:14 "
And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days."

Why did God not CAUSE Solomon to walk in His statutes per Exe 36:27? The "if" shows it was Solomon's freewill choice to either walk or not walk in God's statutes, Solomon chose not to and God allowed it. IF Solomon had chosen to walk in God's statutes, God would have allowed it.

If God CAUSES men to walk in His statutes then how was it that Israel ever sinned? If God CAUSED them to walk in His statutes, then they would have perfectly kept God's law and been perfectly sinless not having transgressed God's statutes. Yet they did sin, many many many times. Did God fail to CAUSE them to keep His statutes all those times they did sin? Did God CAUSE them to worship idols? Why did God not CAUSE ALL Jews to accept Jesus as the promised Messiah?

Some Calvinists claim men have no freewill but can only choose to do what God CAUSES, preordains him to do. Did God, at the same time, CAUSE them to walk in His statutes and at the same time CAUSE them not to walk in his statutes but CAUSED them to worship idols? IS God confused about what He wanted to CAUSE Israel to do? How could God be CAUSING them to walk in His statutes yet at the same time CAUSE Israel to violate those statutes in idol worship?







Hebrew idiom?

Isaiah 55:8-11
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
 
Apr 9, 2015
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#24
Hebrew idiom?

Isaiah 55:8-11
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Correct..... and where the rubber hits the Road, is the Source of Illumination, that's the difference between a man centered Gospel and God Centered Gospel... man centered , illuminated out of the carnal mind, the prince of the power of air, devilish, playing off that pride and self righteousness...... oh very visible... even using the Word of God to stake its claim.. lolz... A God Centered Gospel, Illumination, the Spirit of Truth, with the Focus on Christ Crucified and His Perfect appeasement for Justification and Imputed Righteousness...... ILLUMINATION.... who is called the 'light bearer'... bringing illumination the Wrong Illumination... this is why Jesus told the Pharisees and Scribes of His day... take heed that the light which is in you be not darkness, if thats the case, then how great is that Darkness!... Paul even expounded in reaffirming that satan himself comes as an agent of light or Illumination.... a minister of righteousness. but you will 'see' that fruit is 'bad'.. if you are watching and testing .... thats why the Cross of Christ, when preached in the Spirit of Truth, is ALWAYS the nullifier of spiritual pride.... God's Appeasement... the Crucifixtion of Christ, His Way- the Best Way.. the Way of Humility and suffering, then Glory.. God will have it no other way!
 

Sophia

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2013
1,064
27
0
#25
The idea of permissive will comes from God permitting Satan to harass Job and beset him with ills and tragedy.

Is it separate from His perfect will?
God is perfect, and in Him is no imperfection. There is a perfectly good reason for everything, whether we are shown it or not.

I am not a cookie, even though I made some cookies.
God is not evil simply because He is in sovereign control. Ignore Plato and the Stoics.
Explaining everything away through "freewill" is just a guise for humanism.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,569
1,556
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#26
I am not posting any verses on 'free will" because there are none in the Bible.

As far as permissive will, I don't find that in the Bible either!

But the sovereignty of God! Now that is a good topic! Either God is sovereign and in control, or he isn't God!

"Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.




"Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all." 1 Chron. 29:11-12

"Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases." Psalm 115:3

“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted." Job 42:2

Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose," Isa. 46:9-10

"The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all." Psalm 103:19

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" Romans 9:21

"You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Romans 9:19-20

"Which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords," 1 Tim. 6:15

"Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns." Rev. 19:6
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#27
Hebrew idiom?

Isaiah 55:8-11
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Yes, Hebrew idiom. The Hebrew language has its own set of idioms, figure of speeches as the English language, much has been written about it.

Compare Deut 28:68 in the KJV to same verse in the NKJV.


IF God CAUSED/forced Israel to walk in His statutes then why did Israel sin over and over and over NOT walking in God's statutes?

Some Calvinists claim men have no freewill but can only choose to do what God CAUSES, preordains him to do. Did God, at the same time, CAUSE them to walk in His statutes and at the same time CAUSE them not to walk in his statutes but CAUSED them to worship idols? IS God confused about what He wanted to CAUSE Israel to do? How could God be CAUSING them to walk in His statutes yet at the same time CAUSE Israel to violate those statutes in idol worship?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,569
1,556
113
#28
It is a common Hebrew idiom where an active verb is used to say God actively causes some thing to happen when in reality God simply permitted it to happen, God will permit them to walk in His statutes.

Compare to Eze 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Nothing happens without God's will behind it, since it's God will that permits them to walk in His statutes, in that sense God is said to have caused it.

1 Kings 3:14 "
And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days."

Why did God not CAUSE Solomon to walk in His statutes per Exe 36:27? The "if" shows it was Solomon's freewill choice to either walk or not walk in God's statutes, Solomon chose not to and God allowed it. IF Solomon had chosen to walk in God's statutes, God would have allowed it.

If God CAUSES men to walk in His statutes then how was it that Israel ever sinned? If God CAUSED them to walk in His statutes, then they would have perfectly kept God's law and been perfectly sinless not having transgressed God's statutes. Yet they did sin, many many many times. Did God fail to CAUSE them to keep His statutes all those times they did sin? Did God CAUSE them to worship idols? Why did God not CAUSE ALL Jews to accept Jesus as the promised Messiah?

Some Calvinists claim men have no freewill but can only choose to do what God CAUSES, preordains him to do. Did God, at the same time, CAUSE them to walk in His statutes and at the same time CAUSE them not to walk in his statutes but CAUSED them to worship idols? IS God confused about what He wanted to CAUSE Israel to do? How could God be CAUSING them to walk in His statutes yet at the same time CAUSE Israel to violate those statutes in idol worship?

Only someone with absolutely no knowledge of Hebrew would make such a statement as the one I bolded above.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,065
65
48
#29
Jason0047;2021806[COLOR=#ff0000 said:
[/COLOR]...For true love is when two parties both choose of their own free will to love one another. For if God just forced man to love Him, then that would not be "true love." God wanted us to choose Him so as to show that we truly do love Him...
This is a quite common philosophy in order to solve the theological problem of how God can love the ones He has wrath against. Your explanation would be fine and dandy when it comes to a romantic relation between a loving couple, since it is, or should be, a relation on equal terms. However God's love towards man works not exactly the same way since man's sin is between him and God. It's a different story. Man, being spiritually dead, cannot respond to God's love on equal terms, lest he first be quickened.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
175
0
#30
Only someone with absolutely no knowledge of Hebrew would make such a statement as the one I bolded above.
Causation, in Hebrew is never idiomatic.

There are three grammatical constructions in Hebrew associated with causation.

Some linguists consider them voices because they have tense within them.
Other linguists consider them quasi-voice tense modifications:

The Piel is medeo-reflexive causation in which the subject, while the object of the verb, is caused to participate in the action of the verb.

'He made me hit myself'

the Hiphel is simple causation: He caused me to be punnished (by tattling).


The hitophel signifies indirect causation: He hit the pitch off the top of the bat causing it to ricochet off the backstop and hit my knee.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
38,159
10,427
113
#31
God has set the boundries by his word.....anywhere within the boundries set by the word is in line with his permissive will....to me it is all symantics...God has his sovergn will and PERMITS me to walk freely within that will...if I step outside of his will I am then walking according to my will, which is in direct opposition and conflict with the will of God........IMO
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#32
Only someone with absolutely no knowledge of Hebrew would make such a statement as the one I bolded above.
It would be very naïve (or a religious bias) for one to think Bible languages are void of figure of speeches:

Old Testament Hebraisms:
[SIZE=+2]Hebrew Bible idioms and other figures of speech
compiled by Wayne Leman
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]This webpage may be copied or its contents adapted if its title and compiler are cited.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The following list consists of figures of speech in the Hebrew Bible, such as idioms, euphemisms, metaphors, metonymy, synecdoche, and personification. Figurative meanings are given after the literal translations. Our suggestion of the type of figure of speech (open to debate in several cases) is given in parentheses.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Gen. 4:1 know someone = have sex with someone (euphemism)
Gen. 6:8 Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD = God was pleased with Noah (idiom)
Gen. 15:15 you will go to your fathers = you will die (euphemism)
Gen. 18:27 I am nothing but dust and ashes = I am not worth much (metaphor)
Gen. 20:6 touch = harm (metonymy)
Gen. 26:8 laughing intensely with =sexually caressing, perhaps even, having sex with (euphemism)
Gen. 27:38 lift up voice = vocalize (idiom)
Gen 27.41 said in heart = thought / said to self (metonymy)
Gen. 29:1 lifted his feet = began a journey (metonymy)
Gen 40.13 lift up your head = restore to honor (metaphor)
Ex 3.8 flowing with milk and honey = fertile (idiom)
Ex 7:22 Pharaoh's heart was hardened = stubborn (metaphor)
Ex 13.2 open the womb = be born (metonymy)
Deut 15.7 close hand = selfish (metonymy)
Deut. 15:9 evil eye = stingy (metaphor)
Deut 20.8 heart melt = lose courage (metaphor)
Judges 3:22 the dirt came out =his bowels emptied (euphemism)
Ruth 3:7 feet = genitals (metonymy)
1 Sam. 24:3 covered his feet = relieved himself (metonymy?)
1 Sam. 25:22 any that urinates against the wall = any male (metonymy)
1 Kings 11:9; Psalm 76:7 God's nostils enlarged = God became angry (metonymy)
1 Ki 2:10 slept with his fathers = died (euphemism)
2 Ki 4.29 gird up your loins = get ready (metonymy)
2 Ki 19.26 small of hand = weak (metonymy)
2 Chr 36.13 stiffened his neck = became stubborn (metonymy)
Esther 1.7 open hand = generosity (metonymy)
Job 20.20 knew no quiet in their bellies = greedy (metaphor)
Job 23.16 soft heart = fearful (metaphor)
Ps 5.9 their throat is an open grave = they speak deceitfully (metaphor)
Ps 6.7 eye is consumed = vision is blurred (metaphor)
Ps 7.9 hearts and kidneys = mind thoughts and heart emotions (metaphor)
Ps 12.2 double heart = duplicitous (metaphor)
Ps. 12:3 cut off all flattering lips = bring the flattering to an end (idiom)
Ps 17.8 little man of the eye = pupil (metaphor)
Ps 24.4 clean hands = act purely (metaphor)
Ps 25.1 lift up my soul = pray (idiom)
Ps 27.8 seek my face = seek me (metonymy)
Ps 33.18 eyes are upon = watches over (metonymy)
Ps 41.9 lifted heel against = turned against (metonymy)
Ps 73.9 tongue struts through the earth = arrogantly order everyone (personification)
Ps 75.5 lift horn = defy God (metonymy)
Ps 80:3 face shine = show favor to (metonymy)
Ps 89.13 right hand = might (metonymy)
Ps 89.22 son of wickedness = wicked person (metaphor)
Ps 90.12 number days = use time wisely (idiom)
Ps 94.9 planted = created (metaphor)
Ps 102.2 hide your face = refuse to answer (idiom)
Ps 121.1 lift up eyes = look up toward (metaphor)
Pro 17.22 dries bones = drains strength (idiom)
Pro 18.20 fruit of the mouth = what someone says (idiom)
Pro 22.9 good eye = generous (idiom)
Pro 24.20 lamp will go out = will die (idiom)
Song 2.4 his banner over me is love = he loves me very much (idiom)
Song 2.17 until the day breathes = until dawn (personification)
Is. 3:16 stretched forth necks = haughtiness (metonymy)
Is 14.12 son of the morning = morning star (idiom)
Is 35.10 joy will crown their heads = they will be joyful (idiom)
Is 60.16 suck the milk of nations = receive the wealth of other countries (idiom)
Jer 4.4 remove the foreskin of your heart = dedicate yourselves fully to God (idiom)
Jer 4.19 walls = pain (metonymy)
Jer 5.5 broken the yoke = rejected God's authority (metonymy)
Jer 6.10 ears are uncircumcised = don't listen (idiom)
Jer 7.12 where I caused my name to dwell = where I chose to be worshiped (metonymy)
Jer. 15:16 eat = understand (metaphor)
Jer. 25.15 wine of wrath = my anger (idiom)
Jer 50.33 sons of = people of (metonymy)
Ezek 3.7 hard forehead = stubborn (idiom)
Ezek 16.25 spread feet = offer self for sex (euphemism)
Ezek 16.26 big of phallus = lustful (metonymy)
Jonah 3:3 a city great to God = very large (idiom)
Jonah 4:9 angry unto death = very angry (idiom)


Examples of Figure of Speech Used in the Bible | Truth Or Tradition?

http://christianchat.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2023135

Now to the first question, in what sense may God be said to “send a strong delusion,” or a “working of error” (ASV)? Clearly the statement is not to be taken literally. Such a view would contradict what we know regarding the qualities of our great and loving God. Jehovah is a God of goodness (Acts 14:17; Jas. 1:17) and truth (Dt. 32:4); he cannot do that which is a violation of his own nature (cf. Tit. 1:2; Heb. 6:18).One must, therefore, look for another explanation for the language employed in this controversial passage.

It is fairly well known among advanced Bible students that there is a common idiom (figure of speech) in sacred literature, by which God is said to actively do that which, in reality, he merely allows in human beings — to whom he has granted freedom of will.Consider a few examples.

(1) Concerning Pharaoh, the Lord said: "I will harden his heart. . . " (Ex. 4:21).Elsewhere, however, we learn that the Egyptian monarch hardened his own heart (cf. 8:15).The solution to the seeming conflict lies in the fact that God made demands upon the ruler that he resisted, and, exercising his own stubborn will (cf. 7:14), he refused to obey Jehovah.Pharaoh actively hardened his conscience; God permitted it, i.e., did not overrule the king’s power of choice, thus, in a figurative sense, the Lord was said to be the cause.

(2) Ezekiel represents Jehovah as saying, “I gave them [the Hebrew people] statues that were not good” (20:25).In the larger context of the passage, the meaning is this: “When my people became determined not to listen to my law, I permitted them to follow the ways of paganism.They chose wickedness, I honored the exercise of their volition.”This is precisely the sentiment of the following passage.“So I let them go after the stubbornness of their heart, that they might walk in their own counsels” (Psa. 81:12). This puts the issue in balance.

(3) Jeremiah laments: “Lord God, surely you have deceived this people” (Jer. 4:10).Again, the meaning literally is this: “The people were determined to follow lying ways; you let them proceed.”Sometimes the only way folks can learn is by being allowed to drink the bitter dregs of their own concoctions.

(4) Christ taught his disciples to petition God, “Lead us not into temptation” (Mt. 6:13).Clearly God does not “lead” people into temptation (cf. Jas. 1:13-14).The sense of Matthew 6:13, therefore, would seem to be this: “Father, do not permit us to be overcome by temptation.”Sometimes the active voice is put for the passive for emphasis sake.

In his exhaustive discussion of biblical idioms, James Macknight has observed: “Active verbs were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (Apostolical Epistles, Nashville: Gospel Advocate, 1954, p. 29).

[/SIZE]
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#33
Causation, in Hebrew is never idiomatic.

There are three grammatical constructions in Hebrew associated with causation.

Some linguists consider them voices because they have tense within them.
Other linguists consider them quasi-voice tense modifications:

The Piel is medeo-reflexive causation in which the subject, while the object of the verb, is caused to participate in the action of the verb.

'He made me hit myself'

the Hiphel is simple causation: He caused me to be punnished (by tattling).


The hitophel signifies indirect causation: He hit the pitch off the top of the bat causing it to ricochet off the backstop and hit my knee.
2 Sam 24:1 "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

God causing - moving David to number Israel is idiomatic for Satan is the one to provoke David to number Israel, 1 Chron 21:1, God permitted in 2 Sam 24:1.


Eze 36:27 if God CAUSED Israel to walk in His statutes then why did Israel NOT walk in His statues but sin over and over and over again until God cut them off Rom 11?
 
Last edited:

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,692
1,035
113
#34
Yes, Hebrew idiom. The Hebrew language has its own set of idioms, figure of speeches as the English language, much has been written about it.

Compare Deut 28:68 in the KJV to same verse in the NKJV.


IF God CAUSED/forced Israel to walk in His statutes then why did Israel sin over and over and over NOT walking in God's statutes?

Some Calvinists claim men have no freewill but can only choose to do what God CAUSES, preordains him to do. Did God, at the same time, CAUSE them to walk in His statutes and at the same time CAUSE them not to walk in his statutes but CAUSED them to worship idols? IS God confused about what He wanted to CAUSE Israel to do? How could God be CAUSING them to walk in His statutes yet at the same time CAUSE Israel to violate those statutes in idol worship?
What a weird argument. What makes you think God caused Israel to walk in His Statutes?

God didn't cause Israel to walk in His Statutes. The Law was given so that the offense would abound. And to be a schoolmaster to the whole world. So that everyone would know how righteousness comes and how it doesn't.

The Spirit is given to cause us to walk in His Statutes. Otherwise we have no hope. (you didn't read Ez 36 did you?)

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Israel, and people in general, think they can use their carnal mind and their carnal understanding and their strong wills to bring theirselves into obedience to God and His Law.

But that carnal understanding is actually what causes the offense to abound.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

If you aren't caused to walk in His Statutes then you can't walk in His Statutes. That's not an idiom. That's plain english.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

You can call it Calvinism if you want. I just call it biblical fact. You can't cause yourself to bring forth fruit by your will. The fruit is produced by Gods Will.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
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#35
What a weird argument. What makes you think God caused Israel to walk in His Statutes?

God didn't cause Israel to walk in His Statutes. The Law was given so that the offense would abound. And to be a schoolmaster to the whole world. So that everyone would know how righteousness comes and how it doesn't.

The Spirit is given to cause us to walk in His Statutes. Otherwise we have no hope. (you didn't read Ez 36 did you?)

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Israel, and people in general, think they can use their carnal mind and their carnal understanding and their strong wills to bring theirselves into obedience to God and His Law.

But that carnal understanding is actually what causes the offense to abound.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

If you aren't caused to walk in His Statutes then you can't walk in His Statutes. That's not an idiom. That's plain english.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

You can call it Calvinism if you want. I just call it biblical fact. You can't cause yourself to bring forth fruit by your will. The fruit is produced by Gods Will.
In post #19 you posted:

Ezekiel 36:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Uh-oh...

----------------------------

What did you mean by what you hi-lited in red letters and by "uh-oh"?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,692
1,035
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#36
In post #19 you posted:

Ezekiel 36:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Uh-oh...

----------------------------

What did you mean by what you hi-lited in red letters and by "uh-oh"?
I meant it was in exact opposition to what you just posted, and uh-oh, someone is completely against scripture.

Plus, its fun to say uh-oh. Because it implies being worried about something. But I'm not worried. Thats what makes it sort of fun.

Its not fun to say uh-oh if you are actually worried about something. Then its serious.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#37
I meant it was in exact opposition to what you just posted, and uh-oh, someone is completely against scripture.

Plus, its fun to say uh-oh. Because it implies being worried about something. But I'm not worried. Thats what makes it sort of fun.

Its not fun to say uh-oh if you are actually worried about something. Then its serious.

I said God permitted them to walk in His statutes. Are you saying the opposite of that is God caused them, forced them to walk in His statutes? If that is the case then why did Israel NOT walk in God's statutes if God CAUSED them to walk in His statutes?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,692
1,035
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#38
I said God permitted them to walk in His statutes. Are you saying the opposite of that is God caused them, forced them to walk in His statutes? If that is the case then why did Israel NOT walk in God's statutes if God CAUSED them to walk in His statutes?


Ohhhh..... You think Ezekiel 36 is talking about literal, physical, middle east Israel...

Ezekiel 36 is a prophecy of what God would do in us through the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Romans 2:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 4:25-26

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 6:15-16

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Just like the Church isn't an actual physical building, but is made up of all of Gods People, so the Israel of God is made up of people who don't necessarily reside within the physical boundaries of what are shown on the map as Israel.


My fault for assuming you believe this as I do. I apparently skipped some steps in talking to you... I suppose we have to start somewhere, we have to assume some things...
 
Apr 9, 2015
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#39
Ohhhh..... You think Ezekiel 36 is talking about literal, physical, middle east Israel...

Ezekiel 36 is a prophecy of what God would do in us through the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Romans 2:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 4:25-26

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 6:15-16

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Just like the Church isn't an actual physical building, but is made up of all of Gods People, so the Israel of God is made up of people who don't necessarily reside within the physical boundaries of what are shown on the map as Israel.


My fault for assuming you believe this as I do. I apparently skipped some steps in talking to you... I suppose we have to start somewhere, we have to assume some things...[/QUOTE

The True Church, His Own,IS not defined by wood, concrete , steel, nice carpet, etc.. etc Not defined by what we pull out of His Word and set down as 'truth', or this is the Way we believe ye are saved... NO His True Church , upon whom the Gates of Hades will NOT PREVAIL, was purchased with His BLOOD, this at Calvary, His Own church, those Called Out of Darkness, chosen in Him before the foundation of the World.... these whose Names are Written in Heaven, seated with Him in the Heavenlies! This True Church, its Here on the Earth, and He is Readying her for His Banquet! a Great Banquet and Awards Ceremony! is their OIL in your Lamps?
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#40
Ohhhh..... You think Ezekiel 36 is talking about literal, physical, middle east Israel...

Ezekiel 36 is a prophecy of what God would do in us through the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Romans 2:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 4:25-26

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 6:15-16

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Just like the Church isn't an actual physical building, but is made up of all of Gods People, so the Israel of God is made up of people who don't necessarily reside within the physical boundaries of what are shown on the map as Israel.


My fault for assuming you believe this as I do. I apparently skipped some steps in talking to you... I suppose we have to start somewhere, we have to assume some things...

It does not matter who Eze 36:27 is talking about for the issue is this:

Does God cause/force men (any men) to obey His statutes against their will

or

does God allow men to obey His statutes who of their own freewill have chosen to obey His statutes?