Sovereign will & Permissive Will?

Grandpa · Apr 23, 2015

God causes them but at the same time changes their will. Men don't have the ability to choose to obey a Spiritual Law. They have to be made Spiritual.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That would be the beginning of God Causing a person to walk in His Statutes. Being drawn by the Father to come to Christ.

Did God cause the children of Israel to leave Egypt or did He allow them to of their own free will? Did God cause Jonah to preach to Ninevah or did He allow Jonah to preach to them of his own free will? Did God cause Pharoahs heart to be hardened or did He allow Pharoah to harden his own heart with his own free will?

God is the cause.

Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Bowhunter2394 · Apr 23, 2015

Grandpa said:

Agree 100%

If Israel left Egypt on their own Free will , they would taken another Route,more than likely the shortest route, as Described in His Word, the One Route they would of encountered a hostile Group, and turned and went back Into Egypt. God as commanded to Moses, sent them the LONG WAY AROUND. so that He was able to Harden Pharaoh's Heart even further, and set up the Display of His Delivering Power, and the Destruction of Israel's presumptuous enemies. If God Had left the to their own 'free will'... MOST OF THEM WOULD of turned and ran back into Egypt.. its recorded, 'all the COMPLAINTS to Moses about how if they'd stayed in Egypt, the wouldn't have these PROBLEMS, what did God do? He SUPPLIED THEIR NEED and then took care of those who SAW HIS MIRACLES, yet were still in un belief. they were swallowed up by the Earth! Things Happen according to His Sovereign Plan, because He wills it, and its because He decreed it! man is not like God! His Ways and thoughts are Higher than mans.. indeed!

SeaBass · Apr 23, 2015

Grandpa said:

Yes, if God causes/forces men to keep His statutes and men do not want to, then God would also have to cause/force them to change their will against their will.

Israel left Egypt of its own freewill. At one point God was ready to destroy Israel, Ex 32:10 but Moses interceded before God on their behalf. IF God causes/forces men to walk in His statutes how did Israel go against what God causes and break that statue by worshipping a golden calf?

Jonah 3:1-3 God came to Jonah a 2nd time and Jonah went of his own freewill.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart, 1 Sam 6:6.

My question has been if God CAUSED Israel to walk in His statutes then why didn't they?

Bowhunter2394 · Apr 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

ISRAEL left Egypt, because of the JUDGMENT OF GOD UPON PHARAOH and the firstborn, they Saw that, which in turn, Turned them to to go the Direction Moses had Gotten from the Father.. You have to understand it was the Judgment of God , that Opened the Door for Israel to leave, it was thru this Judgment that God hardened Pharaoh's Heart, telling them to 'go'... and they Went because they Saw the Sovereign Hand of God, in Action , does this sound like 'mans free will'? I THINK NOT.. nooooooooo... God is Exalted in Judgment! His Word Declares it!

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD="class: vDispa, bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]But the LORD of Hosts shall be Exalted in Judgment, and God that is Holy shall be Sanctified in Righteousness.

Un repentant Sinners, those whom God has given over to a Reprobate mind, these are Hardened even more with the Judgment of God they EXPERIENCE . These given over to a Reprobate Mind, allowed to follow their carnal inclinations, these Vessels fitted for destruction. The Judgment of God, will either Draw you closer to Him because of His Holiness and His Power, this revealed to the Person, or it will 'harden' you more and make you more presumptuous in your own abilities and power. No where is this any more evident than Revelation and the Judgment of God, as His Judgments are unleashed, many curse God, blaspheme Him, shake their fists at Him. as It manifests upon them... they Blaspheme the God of Righteousness.. whilst holding out and professing His Truth in un rigtheousnes, a perfect characteristic of the Coming Harlot of Revelation 17! Fallen man has no will other than to fulfill his fallen will, its lusts, its carnality etc.. its Not until God intervenes in that person 's Life that the change into God's Will for them that the Genuine convert will realize the Miracle of the New Birth and the reality of the 'light' which he proceeded to walk in and promote was Darkness.. that Illumination comes from the Father.. thru the Spirit of Truth, the Paraclete, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh..
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Grandpa · Apr 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

I won't ever be able to explain this adequately. If your will is changed how would you ever know if it was against your will or not? You wouldn't. It would seem like your will still. The only way you would know that it was changed is if you compared it to your previous will. God does as He will, which includes changing ours.

We are changed when we come to Christ and our wills are part of it. The other part is the Holy Spirit we are given which is the CAUSE of our keeping His Statutes. The rest that Christ describes when we come to Him.

You don't think Israel was caused to leave Egypt, not even a teensy bit?
You don't think Jonah was caused to preach to Ninevah, not even a little?

1 Samuel 6:6 is the Philistine understanding of what happened.
Exodus 9:12 Is Moses understanding of what really happened.

God does/will cause Israel to walk in His Statutes but not until the Holy Spirit is given. Which is after Christ ascends to the Father. Its a prophecy. A description of what happens when we are born again, of the Spirit. Israel in the OT wasn't caused to be born again. We are, after coming to Christ.

Breeze7 · Apr 23, 2015

The only thing I can add on the whole will thing is this.

It's like in baseball when a pitcher gets signals from the catcher on what to throw to the batter at the plate. The pitcher shakes his head no sometimes, nope I am not throwing that at this hitter. The pitcher has to use his best discernment. I have come to feel there is no free will only free wont. Nobody in life gets to choose the information sea they are swimming and submerged in. The circumstances are given by "God" we get to create a response. It all gets remembered which is a word for it I like better than recorded( remembered).
Ah, I can only hope that this helps.
Why create bad things(?), I guess we have to ask our souls that. Why did we take this Soul Mission, always got to search our own depths...

SeaBass · Apr 23, 2015

Bowhunter2394 said:

Ex 2:23-25;
And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage. And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

Ex 3:7-10
And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Israel of their own freewill wanted to leave Egyptian bondage, Ex 2:23f they groaned over their bondage and their cry came up before by God and God said He would deliver them out of Egyptian bondage, Ex 3:7.

SeaBass · Apr 23, 2015

Grandpa said:

The truth is God did NOT CAUSE them to walk in His statutes for if He did, then they would have for certain walked in those statutes for God would not fail at what His will causes. The fact they sinned over and over shows there was not cause by God but God would PERMIT them to walk in His statutes.

Grandpa said:

No, see my post #47, Israel of their own will wanted to leave Egyptian bondage.

Grandpa said:

No, Jonah 3:3 "So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD." I see nowhere here where it says God CAUSED/force Jonah to go to Nineveh, he went of his own freewill.

Grandpa said:

It was understood by people in OT times Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Grandpa said:

God will allow Israel to walk in His statutes.

1 Kings 3:14 "And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.

God did not cause Solomon to walk in His statutes. The "IF" shows it was conditional upon Solomon's freewill to walk in those statutes or not.

Grandpa · Apr 24, 2015

SeaBass said:

That's OT. The yoke that neither the Fathers, nor we, were able to bear. The broken covenant.

This is the prophecy of the NT, being born again.

Ezekiel 36:23-27
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is how a person is born again;

Matthew 11:28-30

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

When we come to Christ and Abide in Him He grows the Spirit in our lives. He is the cause of our walking in Gods Statutes. For, without Christ, we can do nothing.

directline2iam · Apr 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

For true love would not exist if it was not for the existence of evil. God wants true love from His creation (i.e. man). But evil will not last forever and God is just and good and will see all evil punished it's due time. God delaying the punishment of evil from our perspective might seem unjust but God is eternal and is outside of time. To God, the Judgment has already happened. So evil has already been judged and conquered according to God. Sin and evil is not winning the day. God has won. God has the victory. It's time you start believing that, my friend.

God is pure good and God is pure love.

And the devil and man are the one's who are responsible for evil.

Since God IS love you are saying God cannot exist without evil existing. Ya ok and maybe you should work on your grammar.

Stephen63 · Apr 25, 2015

This is rather confusing.......

IS this about God's permissive will or man's free will?

If God doesn't permit man to choose sin, this means He's WILLING them to do it?

If there's no free will, then this scripture is a lie.
Joshua 24:15 (KJV) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

IF there's no free will, we have actually chosen NOTHING in our lives, sinner or christian. We are merely puppets on God's grand stage of life.

This also means that all the hateful arguing on the Bible Discussion Forum is all God's doing 'cuz after all, WE CAN'T CHOOSE ANYTHING.

I just can't believe you can blame God for all your bad decisions, sins, etc..... sounds like such a irresponsible cop out.....

Since no one chose or didn't choose Christ, I guess the next thing you'll come up with is nobody's really going to Hell..... or God is so bad He's sending people there out of His own "good" pleasure.

My position is much simpler..... someone doesn't know God's Word. To me it's inconceivable that a loving, just God would force some into Heaven & others into Hell.

Why bother with faithfulness & obedience when it's all a setup? Oops, I forgot..... we can't choose to sit on our backsides.

Grandpa · Apr 25, 2015

Stephen63 said:

2 Corinthians 3:14 [SUP] [/SUP]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16-24
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Bowhunter2394 · Apr 25, 2015

Stephen63 said:

This is rather confusing.......

IS this about God's permissive will or man's free will?

If God doesn't permit man to choose sin, this means He's WILLING them to do it?

If there's no free will, then this scripture is a lie.
Joshua 24:15 (KJV) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

IF there's no free will, we have actually chosen NOTHING in our lives, sinner or christian. We are merely puppets on God's grand stage of life.

This also means that all the hateful arguing on the Bible Discussion Forum is all God's doing 'cuz after all, WE CAN'T CHOOSE ANYTHING.

I just can't believe you can blame God for all your bad decisions, sins, etc..... sounds like such a irresponsible cop out.....

Since no one chose or didn't choose Christ, I guess the next thing you'll come up with is nobody's really going to Hell..... or God is so bad He's sending people there out of His own "good" pleasure.

My position is much simpler..... someone doesn't know God's Word. To me it's inconceivable that a loving, just God would force some into Heaven & others into Hell.

Why bother with faithfulness & obedience when it's all a setup? Oops, I forgot..... we can't choose to sit on our backsides.

[/QUOTE

Man has the ability to 'choose within his/her will', carnal fallen will --free will to choose those things within his her fallen/carnal will not pleasing to God according to the Carnal mind which is at war with God , that WILL outside the Sovereign Will of God, these moved by the spirit of disobedience as they move according to the prince of the power of the air... and those Chosen in God, Pulled out of that fallen' Will they were once in bondage to whilst Satan blinded their minds, and Given a new mind that is to be renewed and Regenerated in the Spirit, born Again, Righteousness Imputed and Justified thru Faith in the Work of the Tree, Christ Crucified. If you are His, you will no longer live your lives according to the will and lusts of other men, and the lusts of the world. in the world but Set Apart, unto Him... Only TWO wills on this planet, the will of the one who leads the children of disobedience and the will of the Father, as He directs His children In His Will for their lives... Those In Christ, will make choices and will be led to make choices by His Word and the Help of the Paraclete, as He instructs and strenthens the Believer thru Faith in the Promises of God. The carnal man still spirutally dead in trespasses and sins, will continue to make choices 'within ' that fallen will that is contrary to God, still at war with God, living in UN BELIEF... Its God who draws the sinner in, He removes the blinders that satan has blinded the mind with, the scales persay, and Shows the Convert the Cross, and the Great Love He showed there unto the sinnner. His goodness or the revelation of His goodness, brining the sinner to genunine repentance, because it Was Authored and Powered by God Himself.. this NULLIFIES, the modern day belief system that man can come to God on his/her own power and 'believe'.. he/she cant Unless God intervenes, He is Not obligated to Save ANYBODY, BUT HE DID AND HE does, because He is Gracious and Merciful.. God doesnt need man to make it or survive......... noooo.. too many today are made to believe that, thats the ol corrupter playing on your pride, the ol serpent, God Saves today Because His Is Gracious and Merciful, He showed this at the Tree, by allowing His Son to be murdered, for the Appeasement of Sin, Wrath placed on Christ for the sinner...

God created Man because He was Good, not because He needed man to 'hold Him up' because God may not be able to do it on His own.. lolz... that is the attitude with many today as they 'claim ' His name, yet walk in darkness....

which Will? only 2 wills on this planet, the serpent, corrupts the simplicity of Christ, by wowing the crowds with his illumination which perverts, twists the truth and restrains, those who are Truly Entering into the Kingdom of God, Simple Gospel, Simple Message Christ Crucified!

those religious elite in Jesus's Day, they were the Sons of Abraham, Moses's Disciples, they were confident, they were in the will of God, what did Jesus tell them? brood of Vipers, whited washed tombs, unable to Escape the Damnation of Gehenna fire, looking fine on the outside, but within full of corruption and dead mens bones. these thinking they were doing the 'will' of God.. yet were in darkness, if thats the Case, then How Great is that Darkness..

Christ Saves, Christ Redeems, Christ Gives Wisdom , Christ Sanctifies His Own People thru His Word, Salvation, its about Him! not man in his/her free will trying to Hold up a God who couldnt get it done nor was able, thats a man made 'god'.. the Eternal is Not like that, nor does He tolerate that presumptuousness!

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Sovereign will & Permissive Will?

Grandpa

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Bowhunter2394

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SeaBass

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Bowhunter2394

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Grandpa

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Breeze7

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SeaBass

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SeaBass

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Grandpa

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directline2iam

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Stephen63

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Grandpa

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Bowhunter2394

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