The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[Skinski7]

Was Luther an anti semite? Answer me..and do not be disingenuous please. I doubt Wesley was a 'sinner'..i do not seek to entertain your accusations of Wesley..I doubt any of the hogwash that you are spewing forth about him. I will do my own research regarding these things, I do not expect to be in agreement with you. Lutherans are 'baby calvinists' and very much calvinist at least two thirds of the time, and do not have good to say about any classical arminian.
What are the flaws in holiness theology? I said it, you do not listen! It is all spirit lead and inspired..many simply want to 'keep on sinning' and not crucify their flesh. Which is why ideas like OSAS and 5 point calvinism are popular among the youth.
It is not about thinking i am perfect..I want to be like Christ..to be like Christ..you must hate sin. Do you hate sin? If you do, then why hold onto this identity of sinner and wretched anymore? We who claim to be Christians are to be Christ like and have the mind of Christ,who knew no sin.

Honestly zone..you said it yourself..you are anti Wesley..I am not 'anti Luther'..I know God used imperfect folk like Luther for the reformation..he would have used a Donkey if he needed to for the reformation..But while you go on and on about Wesley, You cannot even accept that your hero..Martin Luther, was an anti semite. At least some Lutherans have had the integrity to renounce at least this part of his life and belief systems..I wish you would do the same.

Works do prove much..have you heard of James? ever read chapter 2 of James? We cannot go on saying works are not important..they are a necessary confirmation that a conversion is true and fruit is a necessary result.

Of his confession of never loving God..that I have never heard of, Where did you get this? Some calvinist author told you? One of your high calvinist friends tell you? Really, where did you get this hogwash from?
From the pit of hell and the mouths of those who's gospel is a filthy stench in the Nostrils of a Holy God..that is where you got that from.

Martin Luther was wrong and so was John Wesley.

John Wesley's main error was that he held to the doctrine of Original Sin and thus had to twist the Bible to support that underlying foundation.

This is why John Wesley could speak about the "crucifixion of the flesh" and yet also speak about "a second work of grace." His theology is inconsistent and that is why the Wesleyian side of the church cannot defend themselves successfully against the Reformers. Their foundation is flawed. Calvinism is consistent with the foundation of Original Sin while Wesleyian Theology is not.

Here are some quotes from John Wesley which should concern you...

Here is his conversion testimony...

Wednesday, May 24.—I think it was about five this morning that I opened my Testament on those words, “There are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, even that ye should be partakers of the divine nature” [II Peter 1:4]. Just as I went out, I opened it again on those words, “Thou art not far from the kingdom of God” [Mark 12:34]. In the afternoon I was asked to go to St. Paul’s. The anthem was, “Out of the deep have I called unto Thee, O Lord: Lord, hear my voice. Oh, let Thine ears consider well the voice of my complaint. If Thou, Lord, wilt be extreme to mark what is done amiss, O Lord, who may abide it? For there is mercy with Thee; therefore shalt Thou be feared. O Israel, trust in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with Him is plenteous redemption. And He shall redeem Israel from all his sins.”


“I Felt My Heart Strangely Warmed”
In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther’s preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.I began to pray with all my might for those who had in a more especial manner despitefully used me and persecuted me. I then testified openly to all there what I now first felt in my heart. But it was not long before the enemy suggested, “This cannot be faith; for where is thy joy?” Then was I taught that peace and victory over sin are essential to faith in the Captain of our salvation; but that, as to the transports of joy that usually attend the beginning of it, especially in those who have mourned deeply, God sometimes giveth, sometimes withholdeth, them according to the counsels of His own will. After my return home, I was much buffeted with temptations, but I cried out, and they fled away. They returned again and again. I as often lifted up my eyes, and He “sent me help from his holy place.” And herein I found the difference between this and my former state chiefly consisted. I was striving, yea, fighting with all my might under the law, as well as under grace. But then I was sometimes, if not often, conquered; now, I was always conqueror.

source:- http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Wesley_Journal.pdf
Pages 36-37

I would ask where is the godly sorrow working repentance in that testimony? Where is the death of the old man? It is not there Raul and those are his very own words.

John Wesley wrote this when he was 62 years old...

To his Brother Charles

WHITEHAVEN, June 27, 1766.
DEAR BROTHER, - I think you and I have abundantly too little intercourse with each other. Are we not old acquaintances Have we not known each other for half a century and are we not jointly engaged in such a work as probably no two other men upon earth are Why, then, do we keep at such a distance It is a mere device of Satan. But surely we ought not at this time of day to be ignorant of his devices. Let us therefore make the full use of the little time that remains. We at least should think aloud and use to the uttermost the light and grace on each bestowed. We should help each other,
Of little life the best to make,

And manage wisely the last stake. [Anacreon's Age. Cowley's translation.]
In one of my last I was saying I do not feel the wrath of God abiding on me; nor can I believe it does. And yet (this is the mystery) [I do not love God. I never did]. Therefore [I never] believed in the Christian sense of the word. Therefore [I am only an] honest heathen, a proselyte of the Temple, one of the foboumenoi Qeon. ['Those that fear God.'] And yet to be so employed of God! and so hedged in that I can neither get forward nor backward! Surely there never was such an instance before, from the beginning of the world! If I [ever have had] that faith, it would not be so strange. But [I never had any] other elegcos of the eternal or invisible world than [I have] now; and that is [none at all], unless such as fairly shines from reason's glimmering ray. [I have no] direct witness, I do not say that [I am a child of God], but of anything invisible or eternal.
And yet I dare not preach otherwise than I do, either concerning faith, or love, or justification, or perfection. And yet I find rather an increase than a decrease of zeal for the whole work of God and every part of it. I am feromenos, ['Borne along.'] I know not how, that I can't stand still. I want all the world to come to on ouk oida. ['What I do not know.'] Neither am I impelled to this by fear of any kind. I have no more fear than love. Or if I have [any fear, it is not that of falling] into hell but of falling into nothing.
I hope you are with Billy Evans. If there is an Israelite indeed, I think he is one. O insist everywhere on full redemption, receivable by faith alone I Consequently to be looked for now. You are made, as it were, for this very thing. Just here you are in your element. In connection I beat you; but in strong, pointed sentences you beat me. Go on, in your own way, what God has peculiarly called you to. Press the instantaneous blessing: then I shall have more time for my peculiar calling, enforcing the gradual work.
We must have a thorough reform of the preachers. I wish you would come to Leeds [Where the Conference was held on Aug. 12. 'A happier Conference we never had, nor a more profitable one. It was both begun and ended in love, and with a solemn sense of the presence of God.' See Journal, V. 181-2; and letter of July 9 to brother.] with John Jones in the machine. It comes in two days; and after staying two days, you might return. I would willingly bear your expenses up and down. I believe it will help, not hurt, your health. My love to Sally.

Source:- The Wesley Center Online: Wesley's Letters: 1766b


If John Wesley was abiding in Christ how could he say such things? How could he be teaching something he didn't really believe? How could he claim to have no witness of God?

It is a very sad and tragic admission but at least John Wesley was honest enough to admit it to his brother. I don't judge the man's soul for that is between him and God but those words he wrote are very concerning indeed.

John Wesley clearly had an intellectual faith with no direct witness of the Spirit of God. He was outwardly a very moral man as far as I can tell. Yet it clearly appears he came into the kingdom ANOTHER WAY and this letter is the fruit that it bore at 62 years old.

Don't be deceived.

John Wesley also wrote this...

Page 15

1. Journal, II, 88-91: “An extract of this I wrote to a friend concerning the state of those who are 'weak in the faith' [Rom. 14:1]. His answer, which I received at [Oxford] on Saturday the 14th, threw me into great perplexity.” Wesley adds a very revealing self-analysis as to the validity of his faith, which concludes: “Yet, upon the whole, although have not yet that joy in the Holy Ghost, nor the full assurance of faith, much less am I, in the full sense of the word, 'in Christ a new creature:' [2Cor 5:17] I nevertheless trust that I have a measure of faith, and am 'accepted in the beloved.' [Eph 1:6]; I trust that 'the handwriting that was against me is blotted out' [cf. Col 1:14] and that I am reconciled to God through his Son”

John Wesley by John Wesley
source:- http://books.google.com/books?id=3z8V4DgB2iYC&


John Wesley also wrote this...

But St. Paul tells us elsewhere, that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, peace, joy, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, temperance.” Now although, by the grace of God in Christ, I find a measure of some of these in myself; namely, of peace, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, temperance; yet others I find not. I cannot find in myself the love of God, or of Christ.

Hence my deadness and wanderings in public prayer: Hence it is, that even in the holy communion I have frequently no more than a cold attention.
Again: I have not that joy in the HolyGhost; no settled, lasting joy. Nor have I such a peace as excludes the possibility either of fear or doubt.

When holy men have told me I had no faith, I have often doubted whether I had or no. And those doubts have made me very uneasy, till I was relieved by prayer and the Holy Scriptures.

source:- JOURNAL - FROM AUGUST 12, 1738, TO NOVEMBER 1

John Wesley sought refuge in THE LETTER and not in the Spirit. This is because he clearly never came in through a true repentance experience where his old man was crucified once and for all. Thus salvation to John Wesley was PURELY ABSTRACT in application and he held fast to "statements of promise" instead of actually walking with God.

I was curious when I first heard about Wesley's crisis of faith and when I set out to research the issue and became greatly disturbed. Here was a man who preached holiness. Here was a man who apparently LIVED what he preached. Yet here was a man who had no witness of God.

If John Wesley could be deceived then anyone can be deceived.

Satan is a roaring lion seeking who he can devour. Satan is not a kitty cat. We had all better heed the implicit warnings of scripture and dig deep and examine ourselves to make sure that we are in the faith, lest we be reprobates.

God bless.

 

[Grandpa]

And the true God is far more loving than what the gospel according to Calvin paints him as..So, i do leave it for him to decide..he's far more good than you imply that he is.

I suppose much better and much more loving than leaving it up to a depraved man to try to decide for himself...

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity!​

​

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

Whenever you ask a loaded question, expect to get shot at! Such as what the church system is producing today. Many will spend an inordinate amount of time loving the things of the world, or expressing how much they love their church and pastor, the church functions, parties, pot lucks, and movie night, sports teams, etc. but fail to mention how they love to do what is right such as:
Depart from all iniquity!
Abstain from all appearances of evil!
Repent and be converted!
The truth Jesus brought with passion and courage, that got Him crucified!
Being persecuted and kicked out of their beloved church for standing against the false ways and worldliness!
Losing all their friends and respect from their family who deems them an evil heretic!
Hungering and thirsting for righteousness!
Keeping pure and unspotted from the world!
Giving up their worldly music, games, TV, and past times, to get into the meat of the word!
Defending and contending earnestly for the truth!
Following Jesus on the narrow road!
Plucking out and casting away the sins of the flesh!
Denying ungodliness and worldly lusts!
Keeping unspotted from the world!
But most of all they will never love the truth as long as they stay IN the system of lies that repeatedly tells them they were born sinners, totally depraved, and will always be a poor helpless sinner, where Jesus came to be their substitute and replacement, so doing what is right is an option since they will always be carnal sold under sin until they die and are set free!
So hating iniquity and loving righteousness it backwards today, since the professed cannot do what is right from the heart, made pure through real repentance and an obedient faith. They will never have a grasp on what God considers righteousness, and hate all those who preach it, such as what Jesus went through with the Pharisees.
He came with a profound message, totally backwards from what is being taught today, He preached , go and sin no more, lay aside your wicked and perverse ways, and repent of the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life, He preached a works salvation, based on an obedient dynamic working faith in love. Not an outer works of the law such as what the Pharisee’s held in high regard.
So the true convert will surely not love the vain attractions plaguing the church system and people today, no way! He or she will be in love with the truth, perusing righteousness, not the lust of the eyes, and flesh, but will have a strong love for truth, godly wisdom, and hate and despise all evil, sin and wickedness!
The spirit will be his witness in all things, and just the thought of sin and iniquity which is rebellion towards God is despised by him, as well as all the false teachings many who profess Christ love today.
But don’t you see what they are teaching today as just the opposite? You get saved IN your vile sins and rebellion, not OUT of them, real repentance and faith is substituted for a transfer of Christ’s righteousness to you, then all sins are pre forgiven, since you are the Roman’s wretch, and chief of sinners, where any sin and iniquity is just a speed bump that sets you back a bit, but never a road block leading to spiritual death!
I encourage you to seek the truth, love it, defend it, and know that Gods glorious grace and mercy will fall upon you with the oil of gladness, and a joy not built upon something that never happened, but a joy in knowing you are on the same page as God, living a life just doing the right thing, obeying His commands, and enjoying the great freedom Jesus has given you over the sins that used to snare you time and again!
Psa 119:104 Through Your Commandments I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.
But today the false way is loved; the ears are tickled, while many souls perish in their sins that were never repented of!
Psa 19:8 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
Folks we are responsible for the truth, Gods precepts which are just and right, and produce a sound mind and heart. His commandments are pure and a joy to follow, obey and love, keeping the eyes full of light, in a very dark and dangerous world. Where the deception it around every corner waiting for another gullible victim to fall into it because they neglected the weightier matters of life such as repentance and faith, which will produce a pure and sound heart and mind, not bent on arguing in favor of sin and unrighteousness by what they teach and love!

2Th 2:10 And with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
2Th 2:12 So that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.
Are you under the strong delusion that says you can sin like the devil and still be saved? OR that you were born a helpless sinner, Jesus took your place and obeyed for you because you cannot? Do you love to argue in favor of sin instead of righteousness and purity?
If yes, then the grand conclusion is that you are under the strong delusion, loving the lie, and your only hope is to come out from among her and be separate, depart from iniquity and do this to get free from the spirit of error:
Jas 1:21 Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Tommy 1-11-13

 

[Skinski7]

I leave it be to God. Not for me to decide.

Your reply is a good example of the problem I run into when I speak with Pastors.

They throw logic and reason out the window and simply stick to their out of context proof text passages in complete opposition to what the Bible plainly states.

They run and hide or twist and divert when hard questions are asked and and their fallacies are exposed.

The bottom line is that all these wolves preach a cloak for ongoing rebellion and deny heart purity.

 

[jimmydiggs]

And the true God is far more loving than what the gospel according to Calvin paints him as..So, i do leave it for him to decide..he's far more good than you imply that he is.

If Calvinism is devoid of the Gospel, I think you should be preaching the Gospel a little more.

 

[starfield]

Predestination is misunderstood. It means that if I am saved now I am predestined for Glory, it does not mean I was predestined from the beginning of time.

.

Most here will have a problem with the above post nonetheless it is absolutely correct and coincides with passages of the scripture concerning predestination.

Predestination is for believers, not the unsaved. The moment one repents and places their faith in Jesus and He saves them, they become adopted as sons and daughters, joint-heirs with Christ, and predestined for glory. They will be conformed to His image and obtain an inheritance in the kingdom of God.

The omniscient God, however, foreknew from the beginning of time those who will be saved and those who will not.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: [5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. It was not predestining of certain individuals unto salvation but rather the omnipotent God predestining before the world's foundation that whosoever believes in Him will be conformed to the likeness of Jesus.

The harvest is great and God demonstrated His love for the whole world through Christ's sacrifice, but the sinner has to respond to God's universal call to salvation upon hearing the gospel and conviction by the Holy Spirit, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me (Rev 3:20), That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Rom 10:9). Those who believe and obey God are the elect of God and are sealed by the Holy Spirit as they await glorification while those who reject the God's gracious provision of salvation will face eternal condemnation.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: [10] Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. When we were in darkness we were not His elect but after regeneration we became His elect and everything that He predestined for the elect became ours.

No group of individuals were preselected to be saved and go to heaven while the rest predestined for hell, otherwise that would contradict John 3:16-17, John 5:40, 2 Peter 3:9, and several other passages.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Your reply is a good example of the problem I run into when I speak with Pastors.

They throw logic and reason out the window and simply stick to their out of context proof text passages in complete opposition to what the Bible plainly states.

They run and hide or twist and divert when hard questions are asked and and their fallacies are exposed.

The bottom line is that all these wolves preach a cloak for ongoing rebellion and deny heart purity.

You should have gone to law school.


You can sure make a lot of conclusions with very little information present.


That having been said, the reason I leave it up to God is that I do not know the answer. Why should I presume to speak for him when thus far as I have encountered the word of God, it isn't a matter highly spoken on. I don't see anywhere where he has said that every single infant that has ever lived, is living, and will live is ushered into heaven the day it dies.

I am also a bit wary (though this is a minor reason for not declaring) of creating two paths to salvation: The Gospel of Grace, and abortion.

Scripture seems to say quite plainly, that God will save those who he wants to save. Who am I to question him?

Should I really tell God, that I know better than he?

 

[PS]

I have agreed with you on most things you've said here, but I have to vehemently disagree here! "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". There are unelected individuals, and his wrath abides upon them.

A couple of videos (short ones!)
Does God Love Everyone?
Does God Love His Enemies?

That was prophesy about two nations. Israel is descended from Jacob and Muslims are descended from Esau.

 

[jimmydiggs]

That was prophesy about two nations. Israel is descended from Jacob and Muslims are descended from Esau.

So, are you saying that instead of individuals, it's the entire group of people descended from Esau that he hates?

 

[PS]

So, are you saying that instead of individuals, it's the entire group of people descended from Esau that he hates?

In the same way God hates wickedness yes. Mind you I think the same might go for Israel as well at the moment.

Anyway I'm going out, I just happened to see that.

 

[jimmydiggs]

In the same way God hates wickedness yes.

True.

Psalm 5:5
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

inseparable.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Actually this verse proves my point. We were saved (justified and regenerate) By faith.

WHat is salvation?

1. Removal of sin (justification)
2. New birth (born again or regeneration)
3. Adoption.

all these things are included in the term "salvation" which Paul makes clear is brought about by faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

According to scripture natural, carnal, unregenerate man has no ability to say "yes" to follow God. It takes the new birth to give that response to God.

Yes, We can not be born of our own will. If God does not offer or will it, we can do nothing. But that passage does not prove your point. I was not born again by my will. I was born again by the will of God. I chose to trust him, thats all. If God did not do the work, or offer salvation. my faith would be meaningless. because there would be nothing to have faith in

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When it comes to Ordo Salutis I personally believe that regeneration preceeds both faith and repentance.

THIS is what separates us. Which is why I try not to argue to much or try to be divided.

Although. I see this as impossible. Regeneration can not precede faith and regeneration. if it did, we would be born again in sin. this makes no sense.

 

[zone]

Was Luther an anti semite? Answer me..and do not be disingenuous please. I doubt Wesley was a 'sinner'..i do not seek to entertain your accusations of Wesley..I doubt any of the hogwash that you are spewing forth about him. I will do my own research regarding these things, I do not expect to be in agreement with you.

okay.

The works of the Reverend John Wesley, A. M.
By John Wesley
p. 117
and so on.

Of his confession of never loving God..that I have never heard of, Where did you get this? Some calvinist author told you? One of your high calvinist friends tell you? Really, where did you get this hogwash from?
From the pit of hell and the mouths of those who's gospel is a filthy stench in the Nostrils of a Holy God..that is where you got that from.

alright.

it's apparent that you are not perfect yet.
but i know you have faith you will persevere.

i hope you continue to find people who will actually help you if you are going astray.
take care then.
zone.

~

"Does not talking of a justified or sanctified state tend to mislead men? almost naturally leading them to trust in what was done in one moment? Whereas we are every hour and every moment pleasing or displeasing to God, according to our works: according to the whole of our inward tempers and our outward behaviour."
Wesley

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we are honest with ourselves, we'd all have to admit that if we've considered this question, we have all struggled to reconcile an answer. On that note Dave, allow me to make a fool of myself with the following hypothetical scenario I have lots and lots of money. And I want to give you a million dollars just to make your life easier. And I insist ... because I like you and giving it away isn't going to diminish anything of my abundance. Sooo ... now Dave's living in comfort and leisure and is a very happy man. BUT ... where would Dave be if he had chosen to refuse my gift ? Would he not be a fool for doing so ? Of course he would. And when we consider the reason(s) why Dave or anyone would refuse such a gesture, the only logical explanation for such an action would be a preservation of pride ... and/or an internal distrust directed towards me, the giver ... and a suspicion therein of me, the giver's intent. Any time we discuss "freewill" in the context of God's generous offer to us in Christ, it would be remiss of us to consider His offer without also including the content of His gift being offered. The offer of the gift means nothing without first contemplating it's content. And it is at this juncture where the question of freewill and accountability also comes into play. Who but ourselves could be held accountable for refusing .... and what excuse could we possibly give for being so foolish ? Yes ... we can exercise our freewill to be foolish. But exercising our freewill in choosing to accept the gift (and benefitting therein) has nothing to do with us. The entire substance of this scenario has everything to do with the Giver, without Whom, there wouldn't even exist the question. I spose' what I'm trying to say is that when all things are considered, what choice is there really to make ? Am I making any sense ? Come ... let us reason together.

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

The whole passage goes even deeper. But here we have more than enough to know that man does know the truth. And why they do not recieve the gift you are talking about.

1. The supressed the truth in sin (loved sin more than truth)
2. What is known of God is manifest (In Greek, the word means to be plainly recognized or known) in them. They know everything about God. His judgment is known. And his reason for judgment is known
3. The things of God are CLEARLY understood to them
4. Thus, they are without excuse for rejecting him
5. Why did they know know they needed salvation? or as you put it, why would they reject the money? "they did not glorify God, they were not thankful, but became FUTILE int heir thoughts, and became fools. thus their hearts were darkened. They thought they knew a better way (thus all the different gospels which have been taught since creation) in this context. they rejected the god they knew, and made God's out of things, these Gods would bow to their wills, Unlike the god who would judge them.

the point is, they already know. Thus are without excuse. But they do not want to know. so they make fake Gods. and fake gospels.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes. Let us not turn "foreknow" into the secular philosophical usage of the term, rather that we use it biblically.

lol. What is omniscience? It means he knows all.

How can God know when Adam sinned, that his son would come to the earth thousands of years later. And know point for point how it would happen.

How did he know of the four empires?

How did he know everything he prophesied? It is all based on foreknowledge.

Hoe Can god put people in place to get his will done? he knows by foreknowledge

It is part of his omnipotence. It is what makes God god. and all the false Gods fakes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That was prophesy about two nations. Israel is descended from Jacob and Muslims are descended from Esau.

yes. Two nations are in your womb.

Esau never bowed down to jacob. nor did he ever serve him, it was quite the oppositie. thus the kids did not fit the prophesy of what Paul spoke of.

This is not saying God chose Jacob for life, and Esau for death. there is nothing which would indicate esau the man is not in heaven today. He did fear God it was obvious. In fact Jacob was more of a sinner than Esau was

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, are you saying that instead of individuals, it's the entire group of people descended from Esau that he hates?

Accordind to malachi, from which this quote was taken. Yes.

malachi was talking about Jacob (Israel) and Esau (Edom)

Also the term hate does always mean hate. It can also mean love less. A persons salvation was not context. A nations chosing was.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suppose much better and much more loving than leaving it up to a depraved man to try to decide for himself...

This is not the problem. The problem with people like rauleetoe is he is leaving it up to self to be saved.

It is not an issue of chosing or deciding. it is an issue of can you save yourself. What can you do? be good? Be good enough? Do enough religious ceremony and tradition? Stop sin? Get Baptized? Go to CHurch? etc etc etc..

Romans one lets us know we all know the righteous judgment of God. many just chose to decide to accept it. And harden their hearts in unrighteousness.