The Adamic Problem

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
762
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#1
Everything comes back in the end to this: Did Adam sin freely? If you answer yes, then you will be told, his fall was not foreseen. If you answer no, then you will be told, he is not guilty.

Pierre Bayle, Dictionnaire, Jansenius, G
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,658
1,053
113
#2
Did Adam sin freely? If you answer yes, then you will be told, his fall was not foreseen.
Why not? Yes Adam chose to disobey God, and God had already seen this outcome before He created Adam. This is NOT rocket science.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
112
40
28
#3
Everything comes back in the end to this: Did Adam sin freely? If you answer yes, then you will be told, his fall was not foreseen. If you answer no, then you will be told, he is not guilty.

Pierre Bayle, Dictionnaire, Jansenius, G
You will be told by who?
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
116
43
#4
Yes, Adam did choose to sin freely. Eve was conned, but Adam being the leader of Eve, knowing better, still went ahead and chose to disobey God and follow Eve!!
 

maverich

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2017
246
23
18
#6
Eve ate of the tree, and Adam said I will die with you.
I ate of the tree, and Jesus said I will die for you.
Adam didn't sin he transgressed. If I read my bible right
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,709
830
113
#7
Everything comes back in the end to this: Did Adam sin freely? If you answer yes, then you will be told, his fall was not foreseen. If you answer no, then you will be told, he is not guilty.

Pierre Bayle, Dictionnaire, Jansenius, G


When a philosopher asserts a dilemma, his assertion alone has no power to validate the terms of the dilemma.


I see no reason to take this dilemma seriously... it has enormous holes.


...
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
933
312
63
#9
Why not? Yes Adam chose to disobey God, and God had already seen this outcome before He created Adam. This is NOT rocket science.
This is what I thought as well, seems rather simple.
Thats how I understood it.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,709
830
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#11
Both legs of the dilemma can be argued and refuted.

If both legs of the dilemma can be argued and refuted, then we're simply left with no dilemma at all... long before I go to the trouble of actually splitting the dilemma.

And then you need to remember that in order split the dilemma, and break it, I'm not actually obligated to refute or prove anything; I only have to show a third option which is feasible.



This dilemma just constitutes an "interesting" argument, not a logically compelling argument.


...
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
762
113
#12
Both legs of the dilemma can be argued and refuted.

If both legs of the dilemma can be argued and refuted, then we're simply left with no dilemma at all... long before I go to the trouble of actually splitting the dilemma.

And then you need to remember that in order split the dilemma, and break it, I'm not actually obligated to refute or prove anything; I only have to show a third option which is feasible.



This dilemma just constitutes an "interesting" argument, not a logically compelling argument.


...
Refute and argue.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
762
113
#13
Theologians try to complicate matters unnecessarily. We must stick with "the simplicity of Christ".
Sure, we can live with the apostles's creed which has like 10 sentences and be great Christians.

But regarding the discussion forum, we should try to think more ;-)
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,709
830
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#14

1. Define the term "sin freely."

2. Define the term "foreseen."

3. Next, map out the rationale, or process, whereby you believe "sinning freely" leads to the conclusion that the fall could not be foreseen.

4. If you define your terms, and then explain the particular process you want to use to reach your conclusion... then I'll come back later and knock it down.



We must be really bored today.
:)



...
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
762
113
#15
1. Define the term "sin freely."

2. Define the term "foreseen."

3. Next, map out the rationale, or process, whereby you believe "sinning freely" leads to the conclusion that the fall could not be foreseen.

4. If you define your terms, and then explain the particular process you want to use to reach your conclusion... then I'll come back later and knock it down.



We must be really bored today.
:)



...
To sin freely - to sin without predetermination.

Foreseen - to know it before it happens

If Adam sinned freely, i.e. without predetermination, his action was not predictable, therefore could not be foreseen

----

These are not my terms, these are terms used by Pierre Bayle in his Dictionnaire historique et critique, but everybody who has some interest in this area of theology should be able to understand them.

Why did you say it can be refuted and argued when you did not know what it means?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,709
830
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#16
To sin freely - to sin without predetermination.

Foreseen - to know it before it happens

If Adam sinned freely, i.e. without predetermination, his action was not predictable, therefore could not be foreseen
1. This only works if you assume that God is ONLY ABLE to foresee because he first predetermines... thus he has NO KNOWLEDGE of anything unless it is something he has predeterimined.

- In this line of reasoning, God's predeterminism comes first, before his foreknowing.
- Thus God only SEES INTO THE FUTURE because he knows his own plans... and by this logic, we could even postulate that he doesn't really see the future at all; he simply has awareness of his own plans.

2. There is no logical reason to make this assumption, that God only foresees what he has first predetermined... that predetermining causes his foreknowing.

3. There is no logical reason to assume foreknowing only means foreknowing if there is first a sizable helping of predeterminism to create the foreknowing.

4. Just doesn't work. There is no logical necessity for the foreknowing of an omniscient being to be caused by anything at all.

5. If a divine being is omniscient, and knows all, then he simply knows all. We have no logical grounds to state he only knows all because he first predetermined all.

6. Reiterate: We have no logical grounds to affirm his foreknowing can only exist if it is caused by something else.

This would actually diminish his property of omniscience, and lessen it to a mere contingent property... it would no longer be a necessary property as it would be contingent on something else.

This would greatly diminish his divine and necessary property of omniscience.

7. Furthermore, we can go to scripture and make a case against this.



There are other arguments to be made against this first leg, before we even move on to the other leg, or before we discus the way these two legs sit in antithesis... but we don't require a multiplicity of arguments to break a false dilemma.


All we need is one "feasible" alternative to break a dilemma.


...
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
23,268
1,221
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#17
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr...Critique/RK=2/RS=E9Tv7J56MveZD49HqHLbRgJ4AcQ-

Old Pierre was a Huguenot............and not well received within his own circles..........he also liked to play mind games with all this stuff.

EXCERPT
The overwhelming majority of the entries were devoted to individual people, whether historical or mythical, but some articles treated religious beliefs and philosophies.[3] Many of the more controversial ideas in the book were hidden away in the voluminous footnotes, or they were slipped into articles on seemingly uncontroversial topics.

Old Pierre himself was a conundrum of emotions

EXCERPT

The rigor and skeptical approach demonstrated in the Dictionary influenced many thinkers of the Enlightenment, including Denis Diderotand the other Encyclopédistes, David Hume, and George Berkeley. Bayle delighted in pointing out contradictions between theological tenets and the supposedly self-evident dictates of reason. He used the evidence of the irrationality of Christianity to emphasize that the basis of Christianity is faith in God and divine revelation. But at the same time He sought to promote religious tolerance, and argued strongly against inflexible and authoritarian application of religious articles of faith.[4][5] This led to a bitter argument with his fellow French Protestant Pierre Jurieu.

Choose who you wish to believe........as for me and my house, We believe the Word of God
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
933
312
63
#18
Where did this idea come from that if God foreknows He must predestine everything that takes place?

And then if you deny that, the people's republic of Geneva calls you an open theist?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
24,357
2,216
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#19
Everything comes back in the end to this: Did Adam sin freely? If you answer yes, then you will be told, his fall was not foreseen. If you answer no, then you will be told, he is not guilty.
That is a non sequitur :)
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
3,584
297
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#20
Yes, Adam did choose to sin freely. Eve was conned, but Adam being the leader of Eve, knowing better, still went ahead and chose to disobey God and follow Eve!!
Adam chose to sin.