The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
[QUOTE="reneweddaybyday
those who reject God's grace in Christ Jesus do not partake of God's grace in Christ Jesus ...


2 tim 1:9 this verse says nothing about anyone who :rejects"
You cannot answer the verse so you invent this instead? Do you hate the truth of election that much that you attempt to deny when you see it.

The Confession of Faith (1689), also known as the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith,[1][2] or the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (to distinguish it from the 1644 London Baptist Confession of Faith), is a Particular Baptist confession of faith. It was written by English Baptists who subscribed to a Calvinistic soteriology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession_of_Faith_(1689) (bold mine)



Of course it is. Calvinists all see the truth, and made confessions of faith showing what they confessed as truth.

natural man does have "faith".


Natural men are spiritually dead, the word in Eph2 is necros...corpse.
Corpses do not have saving faith, 1cor2:14... the natural man cannot


you say he can, in direct opposition to scripture.....why?

Your addition of "saving" to "faith" is a byproduct of your dogma ... click.
No...it is a biblical fact...i already posted where it says, not all men have faith.

The issue is not "do you have faith" ... the issue is in Whom do you have faith.
A person can "believe" a lie and not be saved ... or

A person can "believe" the truth.


This is another issue, another topic.


It is not faith that saves ... it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes ...
No..to be specific... Jesus saves
Just prior to what you claim here, you claimed:

God does not withold anything"
So on the one hand, God does not withhold anything ...

On the other hand, God must "grant" saving faith to those He saves

In effect, you believe God does not "grant" what is needed to come to faith in Christ to those "He is not obligated to save".
Correct..scripture teaches it;18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Those who do not come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are the ones described in Rom 1:18-21 (those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... so they are without excuse). Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness reject God and God is "not obligated to save" those who reject Him.
No, you yourself are suppressing the truth right now...ALL MEN ARE GUILTY...JEW GENTILE, ALL GUILTY

Those who come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are those who trust/believe what they hear when someone preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ. God then brings increase to them. God is the One Who brings to fruition the promise. God is the Promiser and He absolutely will bring to pass that which He promises ... and He promises salvation to those who believe.
No one comes to God unless God The Father draws Him;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Are you going to deny this now? Are you going to complain Jesus taught Calvinism dogma?


:rolleyes: ... I didn't say "Men "elect" themselves" ... your assertion is just another example of you claiming I said something I never said.
If you deny God elects them, who is left? Stop posting like a clown.

:rolleyes: ... the "every man" of Hebrews 2:9 is comprised of believers and unbelievers.
Now you are getting it.All are sinners, But God has elected those ...the seed of Abraham out of all mankind, to redeem them.
All mankind is not redeemed as you suggested.All mankind does not have forgiveness of sins.





.[/QUOTE]
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,029
940
113
The "every man" of Hebrews 2:9 refers to what is written in Hebrews 2:6-8. Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoted from Psalm 8:

Psalm 8:

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet


Hebrews 2:

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


The verses in Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2:6-8 refer to God having created, formed, made mankind to have dominion over all the earth. Hebrews 2:8 clarifies that now we see not yet all things put under him (mankind).

Then Hebrews 2:9 tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ is crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So let's look at the words "man", "him", "son of man", "his", and "every man" as shown in Hebrews 2:6-9

vs 6:
– man (noun, nominative, singular, masculine)
– him (pronoun, genitive, singular, masculine)
– son of man (noun, genitive, singular, masculine)
vs 7:
– him (pronoun, accusative, singular, masculine)
vs 8:
– his (pronoun, genitive, singular, masculine)
– feet (noun, genitive, plural, masculine)
– him (pronoun, dative, singular, masculine)
vs 9:
– every man (adjective, genitive, singular, masculine)


An adjective is a word that describes a person(s), place(s), or thing(s). Within a sentence, an adjective usually describes a noun.

Adjectives
· can be masculine, feminine, or neuter
· agree with the noun they modify in number, case and gender
· are declined in similar fashion as nouns
All of the references in Heb 2:6-9 are singular, masculine ... and adjectives must agree with nouns in number, case, and gender.


Now, look at Hebrews 2:10:

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

"many" is adjective, accusative, plural, masculine and
"sons" is noun, accusative, plural, masculine.



Clearly, the "every man" (adjective, genitive, singular, masculine) of Hebrews 2:9 is not speaking of the "many sons" (accusative, plural, masculine) of Hebrews 2:10.

The "every man" of Hebrews 2:9 relates back to the "him" and "son of man" in Hebrews 2:6 ... which is speaking of Adam ("man") and the progeny of Adam ("son of man"):

Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him [genitive, singular, masculine]? or the son of man [genitive, singular, masculine], that thou visitest him?

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man [genitive, singular, masculine].





Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

"the seed" = noun, genitive, singular, neuter
"Abraham" = Indeclinable Proper Noun [A proper noun in a highly inflected language having no inflections]



Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

"brethren" = noun, dative, plural, masculine
"people" = noun, genitive, singular, masculine



you have again failed in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.
Amen!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,029
940
113
The redemption of mankind was planned before the world was created. The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is more than sufficient to cover all the sin of all mankind who lived in the past, who live in the present, and who shall live in the future.





Slight adjustment to your stated dogma:

a person is not "elected by God" until he or she believes. You have the cart before the horse.

In your understanding

– God "elected" ...

– God then provides faith to the one He "elected" so that he or she is able to "believe" the gospel of Christ ...

– God withholds faith from the one not "elected" so that he or she is not able to "believe" the gospel of Christ ...

Your understanding is not in alignment with what is stated in Rom 1:18-20 where we read that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse. However, under your scenario, since God withholds something from them so that they cannot under any circumstance believe Rom 1:16, they have an excuse ... yet Scripture tells us they are without excuse.


In my understanding:

– God does not withhold faith from anyone ...

– the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes ...

– those who believe are brought into the fellowship of Jesus Christ our Lord, Who is "the Elect" (capital "E") ...

– at that point, the believer is "elect" (small "e") ...


Those who do not believe the gospel of Christ suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18-20) ... not because they are incapable of believing the gospel, but because they believe something other than the gospel (that which is the power of God unto salvation). They reject God and as a result, they suffer the consequence of having rejected.

Those who believe receive the blessing promised. Prior to believing, they are children of wrath ... not any different than the whole pool of humanity.





not true ... I have shown both you and brightfame52 the difference. You both toss it off as if what has been revealed to you does not make a difference.

How many times have I told you that the "everyone" ("every man" in KJV) is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine?

How many times have I told you that adjectives must agree with the nouns they modify in case, number, gender?

brightfame52 foolishly accuses me of "being a show off with the greek" without realizing that when he presents his understanding of the Greek yet accuses others of something he does himself, all it does is reveal his hypocrisy (Rom 2:1).





What is a "complete falsehood" is your claim that I said "all mankind =seed of Abraham".

I have continuously pointed out that "every man" is not seed of Abraham.

You and brightfame52 are the ones who claim that "every man" refers to seed of Abraham.

Go back and read Post 2814. I said the many sons of Heb 2:10 does not refer to every descendant of Adam.

In Post 2825 I clarified that " "the text itself defines the many sons (vs 10) who are brought unto glory as the seed of Abraham" and asked you to provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated "the unsaved people who descend from Adam" are described as the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham".

You cannot provide the post because there is no such post. I have stated over and over that the "every man" of Heb 2:9 is not the same as the seed of Abraham.

But you and brightfame52 do not read with clarity because you are trying to conform Scripture to your dogma and that is improper interpretation of Scripture. Then, because of your improper interpretation of Scripture, you accuse me of stating things I never said. Add to that the fact that you re-write what the Author of Scripture has written in your total mishandling of Scripture ...


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.
🎯 you hit the mark! Amen.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,133
531
113
It imputes righteousness without works !

Rom 4:6

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Those whose sins are forgiven through the blood of Christ, see Vs 7 have also righteousness given them. See all of Christ's Suretyship righteousness, as He lived in perfect holy obedience to the Law of God, for He perfectly did this which is required Matt 22:37-40

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Christ did this perfectly in His Mind Will and Affections, and this Righteousness is given as a free Gift to all for whom He lived and died.

And so Paul understanding this Suretyship righteousness writes Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

See Christ's one Surety-ship obedience makes many righteous ! 62
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,133
531
113
The accomplishment of Christ's death for those He died, t gives them the right to Spiritual Life from Christ ! Christ as their Savior raises them from the dead, that spiritual death they incurred in Adam. All of them died in Adam because of sin Rom 5:12, death reigned because of sin upon them Rom 5:17,21

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

But since Christ by His death put away their sins and offences, they through Him have the right to being raised from the spiritual dead, so hence its said of them Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Quicken means made alive, given life. These are the ones that believe on Him, for they had the right to be called the children of God Jn 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power or right to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To become the manifested children of God they must first be made alive, because God is the God of the Living and not the dead Matt 22:32

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,133
531
113
It gives life unto serving the living God !


Another way we know that Christ didnt die for all without exception is by realizing that those He did die for, or shed His blood for,
they are made to serve the living God, observe Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

"How much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"To serve the Living God or to Worship Him must be in Spirit and Truth Jn 4:23-24

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And so Spiritual life must be given in order for this to happen. Spiritually dead sinners cant serve/worship the True Living God ! But those Christ shed His Blood for shall come to do that, and credit goes to the Blood of Christ ! 64
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,133
531
113
The results of Christ death !

Its easy to see from scripture that Christ didnt die for all without exception simply because all without exception receive the saving and sanctifying results of His death. Only His Sheep do, or Gods Elect, or His Church do, who He specifically die for Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

We may be specific when scripture is specific ! See all are not sanctified [set apart for God] however all those Christ died for are Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering[Death] of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Its no such thing in scripture as a death of Christ that didnt sanctify them He died for !
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,985
1,666
113
Do you hate the truth of election that much that you attempt to deny when you see it.
:rolleyes: ... more of your accusatory made up nonsense ... you do know who is the accuser, yes?




Iconoclast said:
natural man does have "faith".
Natural men are spiritually dead
so? natural men believe ... the issue is that they either haven't heard the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe in order for God to bring them to salvation ... or ... if they have heard the gospel of Christ and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they remain unsaved ... or ... someone tells them something that is not the gospel while claiming it is the gospel and they believe the lie.




Iconoclast said:
1cor2:14... the natural man cannot
here's what I have to say about 1 Corinthians 2:14 ... click




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
It is not faith that saves ... it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes ...
No..to be specific... Jesus saves
:rolleyes: ... cute ... let's read the verse we were discussing when I stated "it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes":

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

do you agree it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth?




Iconoclast said:
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Prior to Day of Pentecost, gentiles had to convert to Judaism (see Acts 2:10) ... and, apparently that belief still cropped up later in the church in Galatia:

Galatians 6:12-13 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Jews were going into the church and telling gentiles they had to be circumcised.

In Acts 11, after Peter had declared what had occurred at the house of Cornelius (gentiles had believed and had been born again of Holy Spirit). Look at Acts 10:45 ... and they of the circumcision [Jews] which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Jews were amazed and when Peter told the apostles and brethren at Judea that the gentiles had also received the word of God (Acts 11:1), the Jews then glorified God because God had flung the gates wide open to gentiles and granted them repentance to life without the need to convert to Judaism.




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Those who do not come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are the ones described in Rom 1:18-21 (those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... so they are without excuse). Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness reject God and God is "not obligated to save" those who reject Him.
No, you yourself are suppressing the truth right now...ALL MEN ARE GUILTY...JEW GENTILE, ALL GUILTY
According to Romans 1:18-21, God tells us His wrath is revealed against those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (vs 18).

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

You want to claim "ALL MEN ARE GUILTY...JEW GENTILE, ALL GUILTY" ... and that God's wrath is upon those spoken of in Rom 1:16? ... have at it. If that is the case, I am not in agreement.




Iconoclast said:
No one comes to God unless God The Father draws Him;

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
In Jeremiah 31, we are told how God draws mankind to Himself:

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

God allows mankind to reject His lovingkindness, and those who reject will suffer the consequence of having rejected Him.




Iconoclast said:
:rolleyes: ... I didn't say "Men "elect" themselves" ... your assertion is just another example of you claiming I said something I never said.
If you deny God elects them, who is left? Stop posting like a clown.
:rolleyes: ... more of your nonsense ... claiming I stated something I never said, thereby revealing who is the "clown".




Iconoclast said:
All mankind is not redeemed as you suggested.
I never suggested what you claim ... but, like I said earlier:


please provide the post submitted by me wherein I claimed:

"all mankind =seed of Abraham"

"all mankind is redeemed"

You will not be able to provide the post(s) because I never said what you claim ... but that will not stop you from claiming I said something I never said.

"You will not be able to provide the post(s) because I never said what you claim ... but that will not stop you from claiming I said something I never said."

I called that one right ...
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,985
1,666
113
this Righteousness is given as a free Gift to all for whom He lived and died.
Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.




All of them died in Adam because of sin Rom 5:12
Romans 5:12 does not state all "died in Adam because of sin".

Romans 5:12 tells us that sin entered the world through one man and death passed upon all men because all have sinned ... not that Adam's sin was passed down to his descendants.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Descendants of Adam do not die because Adam sinned ... descendants of Adam die because each descendant sins.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only One who ever died because of the sins of others ... and He took those sins upon Himself willingly in the place of others.

You did not "inherit" the sins of your father and mother ... nor did I "inherit" the sins of my father and mother.

And even if it were possible for a descendant of Adam to live perfectly without sin his or her entire lifetime, he or she would still need the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Our Lord because He is the only way. He is life:

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.




brightfame52 said:
Jn 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power or right to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To become the manifested children of God they must first be made alive, because God is the God of the Living and not the dead Matt 22:32
:rolleyes: ... to conflate what is written in John 1:12 with what is written in Matthew 22:32 is improper interpretation of Scripture.

Read each verse with the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse.

Like Jesus said to the sadducees who asked the question Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures




Another way we know that Christ didnt die for all without exception is by realizing that those He did die for, or shed His blood for,

they are made to serve the living God
:rolleyes: ... dying for all does not negate the fact that only those who believe receive the blessing ... and those who reject receive the consequence.

Hebrews 9:19-20 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined to you.

Moses sprinkled "all the people" ... believer and unbeliever alike. This is a foreshadowing of the death of Christ on behalf of all.

Those whose consciences are purged are the ones who believe on the One Who offered Himself without spot to God:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?




Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once

According to the context, the comers according to Heb 10:1 ... also known as the worshippers according to Heb 10:2 ... are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once

The point of Hebrews 10:10 is that sanctification is founded on the one offering of Jesus, not on our own offerings or sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:10 contrasts the sufficiency of the one sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ against the insufficiency of the sacrifices under the Old Covenant (see Heb 10:1-4).

Hebrews 10:10 is not a "proof text" for your erroneous dogma.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,133
531
113
Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





Romans 5:12 does not state all "died in Adam because of sin".

Romans 5:12 tells us that sin entered the world through one man and death passed upon all men because all have sinned ... not that Adam's sin was passed down to his descendants.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Descendants of Adam do not die because Adam sinned ... descendants of Adam die because each descendant sins.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only One who ever died because of the sins of others ... and He took those sins upon Himself willingly in the place of others.

You did not "inherit" the sins of your father and mother ... nor did I "inherit" the sins of my father and mother.

And even if it were possible for a descendant of Adam to live perfectly without sin his or her entire lifetime, he or she would still need the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Our Lord because He is the only way. He is life:

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.





:rolleyes: ... to conflate what is written in John 1:12 with what is written in Matthew 22:32 is improper interpretation of Scripture.

Read each verse with the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse.

Like Jesus said to the sadducees who asked the question Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures





:rolleyes: ... dying for all does not negate the fact that only those who believe receive the blessing ... and those who reject receive the consequence.

Hebrews 9:19-20 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined to you.

Moses sprinkled "all the people" ... believer and unbeliever alike. This is a foreshadowing of the death of Christ on behalf of all.

Those whose consciences are purged are the ones who believe on the One Who offered Himself without spot to God:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?





Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once

According to the context, the comers according to Heb 10:1 ... also known as the worshippers according to Heb 10:2 ... are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once

The point of Hebrews 10:10 is that sanctification is founded on the one offering of Jesus, not on our own offerings or sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:10 contrasts the sufficiency of the one sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ against the insufficiency of the sacrifices under the Old Covenant (see Heb 10:1-4).

Hebrews 10:10 is not a "proof text" for your erroneous dogma.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
Still opposing the Gospel
 
:rolleyes: ... more of your accusatory made up nonsense ... you do know who is the accuser, yes?
There is nothing made up here, but an accurate observation, you say this to deflect from the truth.

so? natural men believe ...
You say this, YOU SAY NATURAL MEN BELIEVE. but God says the natural man...CANNOT RECEIVE THE TRUTH OF GOD.

the issue is that they either haven't heard the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe in order for God to bring them to salvation .
..


Virtually everyone in America has heard the gospel in some form.



if they have heard the gospel of Christ and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they remain unsaved ...
correct

or ... someone tells them something that is not the gospel while claiming it is the gospel and they believe the lie.
correct

here's what I have to say about 1 Corinthians 2:14
... click


I tried to open this, it did not open
:rolleyes: ... cute ... let's read the verse we were discussing when I stated "it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes":

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

do you agree it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth?
Paul is teaching the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, once the Spirit gives the dead sinner a new heart to receive it.The natural man can only be saved by a supernatural work of God..[new birth].
Tghe facts of the gospel have no power apart from the Spirit using it.


Prior to Day of Pentecost, gentiles had to convert to Judaism (see Acts 2:10) ... and, apparently that belief still cropped up later in the church in Galatia:
Galatians 6:12-13 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Jews were going into the church and telling gentiles they had to be circumcised.

In Acts 11, after Peter had declared what had occurred at the house of Cornelius (gentiles had believed and had been born again of Holy Spirit). Look at Acts 10:45 ... and they of the circumcision [Jews] which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Jews were amazed and when Peter told the apostles and brethren at Judea that the gentiles had also received the word of God (Acts 11:1), the Jews then glorified God because God had flung the gates wide open to gentiles and granted them repentance to life without the need to convert to Judaism.


Yes, God granted [graced them] repentance and life.

According to Romans 1:18-21, God tells us His wrath is revealed against those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (vs 18).
Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

You want to claim "ALL MEN ARE GUILTY...JEW GENTILE, ALL GUILTY" ... and that God's wrath is upon those spoken of in Rom 1:16? ... have at it. If that is the case, I am not in agreement.
We are having a reasonable discussion seeing that we have disagreement. Here is why we disagree on this point;
Paul builds from chapter 1, and 2, to this point and conclusion ; Rom3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


This is why I say...all the world, Jew or Gentile are guilty

In Jeremiah 31, we are told how God draws mankind to Himself:
Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

God allows mankind to reject His lovingkindness, and those who reject will suffer the consequence of having rejected Him.
Jer 31:3 is written to His Covenant people, not all of mankind. Where do you get all mankind in this passage
This kind of error on your part obscures the truth on your behalf. God does not allow mankind to "reject His lovingkindness"....they do that automatically! That is why it is mercy that any are saved.


:rolleyes: ...
more of your nonsense ... claiming I stated something I never said, thereby revealing who is the "clown".
we are doing good so far, do not post like an ass now.

I never suggested what you claim ... but, like I said earlier:
You can deny it, I will stand by what I posted.We can let the readers decide.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,133
531
113
The results of Christ death ! cont,

It causes the spiritually blind to spiritually see.

Now all men are by nature spiritually blind and cant see spiritually. Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

The blindness is a spiritual blindness of the heart.

All by nature are lost and blind 2 Cor 3:14; 4:4

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But fortunately for the Sheep Christ death remedies that blindness, Jesus came for that purpose Jn 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Notice this Prophecy of the work of Christ Isa 42:1,6-7

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;


7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
The Judgment Jesus spoke of in Jn 9:39 is the same in Isa 42:1,7 to open up blind eyes, and it didnt mean just for jews, it meant elect gentiles also

Jesus says in Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth[spiritually] the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There's no such thing as a sinner remaining spiritually blind who Christ died for ! Yet many shall remain spiritually blind ! 64
 
Nov 17, 2015
4,029
940
113
Many natural men in the N.T. who were saved when they believed. When natural men cannot receive spiritual things simply means all will remained unsaved and the doctrine of atonement is nothing. Acts 16:31 is a very example that in a natural state yet get saved by believing.
 
Many natural men in the N.T. who were saved when they believed. When natural men cannot receive spiritual things simply means all will remained unsaved and the doctrine of atonement is nothing. Acts 16:31 is a very example that in a natural state yet get saved by believing.
The natural man, gets regenerated by a supernatural work of God, which enables them to believe.Without the new heart, they would never believe
 
Nov 17, 2015
4,029
940
113
The natural man, gets regenerated by a supernatural work of God, which enables them to believe.Without the new heart, they would never believe
Umm, are you now stating man in his natural state can receive spiritual things? Yet, you figure out a thing Paul didnt talk about in the particular text, he stated it clearly, to believe then get saved. To be regenerated is to be saved and it is an act of the Holy Spirit and I agree but it is the result of faith on Christ.
 
"fredoheaven,

Umm, are you now stating man in his natural state can receive spiritual things?
.No, you have this all wrong.The text clearly says, the natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.
There is nothing to dispute here. They CANNOT.


Yet, you figure out a thing Paul didnt talk about in the particular text, he stated it clearly, to believe then get saved.



You error here, it is not complex but rather a simple fix.
1] The natural man CANNOT WELCOME TRUTH
2] The Father draws the natural man to Jesus
3]The drawing is effectual in that the Spirit quickens the dead sinner to life.
4]As the Spirit gives the natural man a new heart and indwells him, he by new birth is made a spiritual man.
5] I am listing this in numerical fashion, but it all happens simultaneously.
6] God transforms the dead sinner, to life.
7]The natural man is enabled to repent and believe the truth of the gospel, AS he is quickened from death to life.
8] Lazarus was dead, brought back to life, then came out of the tomb. He did not hop out first, then be made alive.
9] An all powerful God, is not a spectator waiting for spiritual corpses to come back to life ,all on their own.
10 ] dead men do not just believe savingly on their own.




to be regenerated is to be saved and it is an act of the Holy Spirit and I agree but it is the result of faith on Christ.
.That would be a direct contradiction of scripture which is not happening.
 
Umm, are you now stating man in his natural state can receive spiritual things? Yet, you figure out a thing Paul didnt talk about in the particular text, he stated it clearly, to believe then get saved. To be regenerated is to be saved and it is an act of the Holy Spirit and I agree but it is the result of faith on Christ.
"fredoheaven,

Umm, are you now stating man in his natural state can receive spiritual things?
.No, you have this all wrong.The text clearly says, the natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God.
There is nothing to dispute here. They CANNOT.


Yet, you figure out a thing Paul didnt talk about in the particular text, he stated it clearly, to believe then get saved.
You error here, it is not complex but rather a simple fix.
1] The natural man CANNOT WELCOME TRUTH
2] The Father draws the natural man to Jesus
3]The drawing is effectual in that the Spirit quickens the dead sinner to life.
4]As the Spirit gives the natural man a new heart and indwells him, he by new birth is made a spiritual man.
5] I am listing this in numerical fashion, but it all happens simultaneously.
6] God transforms the dead sinner, to life.
7]The natural man is enabled to repent and believe the truth of the gospel, AS he is quickened from death to life.
8] Lazarus was dead, brought back to life, then came out of the tomb. He did not hop out first, then be made alive.
9] An all powerful God, is not a spectator waiting for spiritual corpses to come back to life ,all on their own.
10 ] dead men do not just believe savingly on their own.




to be regenerated is to be saved and it is an act of the Holy Spirit and I agree but it is the result of faith on Christ.
.That would be a direct contradiction of scripture which is not happening.The text explains why the Spirit must indwell the person first.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us
by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but
the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God;

that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not
the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,985
1,666
113
Iconoclast said:
Do you hate the truth of election that much that you attempt to deny when you see it.
:rolleyes: ... more of your accusatory made up nonsense ... you do know who is the accuser, yes?
an accurate observation
nope




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Iconoclast said:
Natural men are spiritually dead
natural men believe ... the issue is that they either haven't heard the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe in order for God to bring them to salvation ... or ...if they have heard the gospel of Christ and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they remain unsaved ... or ... someone tells them something that is not the gospel while claiming it is the gospel and they believe the lie.
You say this, YOU SAY NATURAL MEN BELIEVE. but God says the natural man...CANNOT RECEIVE THE TRUTH OF GOD.
natural man believes all kinds of stuff ...

atheists believe there is no God ...

pagans believe in many gods ...

buddhists believe in buddha ...

for the atheist, the pagan, the buddhist ... if they are taught the truth of the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation unto those who believe ... and they suppress the truth in unrighteousness which results in them not believing the gospel ... they remain unsaved ...

Not because they cannot believe but because they reject Him Who is to be believed.

The believer preaching the gospel to the unsaved is God reaching out to the unsaved ... God always makes the first move ... God reaches out to mankind ...

Romans 10:

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.




Iconoclast said:
Virtually everyone in America has heard the gospel in some form.
and those who believe will be saved ... not by their faith ... but by the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom 1:16).

those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness will not be saved :(




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
here's what I have to say about 1 Corinthians 2:14 ... click
I tried to open this, it did not open
don't know what to tell you ... the link works for me ...




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
do you agree it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth?
Paul is teaching the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, once the Spirit gives the dead sinner a new heart to receive it.
you are adding to the text ... why do you not believe the verse just as it is written by the Author of Scripture:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

do you believe that verse just as it is written ? ... or do you read what is written and then say "yes ... but ..."

and it appears that what you are saying is that a person must be born again [new heart] in order to believe the gospel by which a person is born again. How many times must a person be born again before he or she is really, truly, really, really, really born again?




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

You want to claim "ALL MEN ARE GUILTY...JEW GENTILE, ALL GUILTY" ... and that God's wrath is upon those spoken of in Rom 1:16? ... have at it. If that is the case, I am not in agreement.
Rom3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped,and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This is why I say...all the world, Jew or Gentile are guilty
Look ... all descendants of Adam are guilty ... and if you read the section in chapter 3, it's talking about folks who believe they are justified through the keeping of the law and vs 20 clearly states by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight ... then reading to vs 22 ... Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe

however, we were specifically addressing the wrath of God spoken of in Rom 1:18-20 ... God's wrath is revealed against those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness ...

God's wrath is stayed from those who believe the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes. Once a person believes, he or she is NO LONGER UNDER CONDEMNATION.




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
In Jeremiah 31, we are told how God draws mankind to Himself:

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

God allows mankind to reject His lovingkindness, and those who reject will suffer the consequence of having rejected Him.
Jer 31:3 is written to His Covenant people, not all of mankind. Where do you get all mankind in this passage
This kind of error on your part obscures the truth on your behalf. God does not allow mankind to "reject His lovingkindness"
so you're saying God doesn't allow it ... yet they reject His lovingkindness ... so how can God not be allowing it ... you're talking out of both sides of your mouth now.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
more of your nonsense ... claiming I stated something I never said, thereby revealing who is the "clown".
we are doing good so far, do not post like an ass now.
:rolleyes: ... more name-calling ... which reveals who is posting like what in this discussion ...




Iconoclast said:
reneweddaybyday said:
I never suggested what you claim ... but, like I said earlier: "You will not be able to provide the post(s) because I never said what you claim ... but that will not stop you from claiming I said something I never said."
I will stand by what I posted.We can let the readers decide.
readers wouldn't have to decide anything if you would just stop claiming I said something I never said ... and if/when you do make such claims, I will set the record straight.
.
 
Mar 23, 2016
6,985
1,666
113
Umm, are you now stating man in his natural state can receive spiritual things? Yet, you figure out a thing Paul didnt talk about in the particular text, he stated it clearly, to believe then get saved. To be regenerated is to be saved and it is an act of the Holy Spirit and I agree but it is the result of faith on Christ.
I am listing this in numerical fashion, but it all happens simultaneously.
Ephesians 1 provides the "fashion" ...

Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

you trusted after you heard the gospel of salvation;
you believed after you trusted;
you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise [i.e. born again] after you believed;

hear ... trust ... believe ... sealed ... and while we are not cognizant of any lapse of time between hear/trust/believe/sealed ... that is the sequence. I believe God ... I believe what He wrote in Eph 1:12-13.
.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
16,369
5,721
113
62
Ephesians 1 provides the "fashion" ...

Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

you trusted after you heard the gospel of salvation;
you believed after you trusted;
you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise [i.e. born again] after you believed;


hear ... trust ... believe ... sealed ... and while we are not cognizant of any lapse of time between hear/trust/believe/sealed ... that is the sequence. I believe God ... I believe what He wrote in Eph 1:12-13.
.
The sealing of the Spirit isn't the indwelling of the Spirit. Seals are placed on the outside, not the inside.